ECLA LCMS personallity test

LutheranHawkeye · May 9, 2009

doulos_tou_kuriou said:
I think the one problem with this answer is you assume that adoration detracts from eating and drinking, which it seems like no one here is suggesting. Rather they are saying, "yes, eat and drink, receive the Lord and the grace he brings. But can I not in my recognition of his presence before me worship him too?" The question then becomes is adoration/worship of the sacrament adiaphora. You call it a first commandment issue, but I do not see that. Luther tells us to seek the Lord where we know hw is present, so I do not think you can call this idolotry. Certainly not anymore than bowing before the chancel or altar when you approach in reverence to the cross and acknowledgement of the present God(see reverence to that which reverence is due thread).

So one must decide first, is it adiaphora? I do not think anyone here considers it commanded by scripture, but is it forbidden? Then one must ask, in so doing does it distract from the gospel and the purpose of the sacrament? This would I think be the more important question on this topic. Finally then should ask why am I doing it? If we have the freedom to do it, why should we? How do we incorporate this appropriately into our liturgy in a manner that is helpful and not problematic?

Pax

I just worship our Lord's presence in the Eucharist after the time of consecration and right up until reception. What it sounds like Rev and some others are suggesting is that we ignore our Lord's Presence until reception. I can't do that, it's kind of a big deal when Christ becomes physically present in the room...lol. If I am adoring the sacrament I see nothing unbiblical about it, it can't be idolatrous because we are worshiping the physical presence of Christ. The only time of the week we get to worship him when he is physically and literally feet away. Amirite?

LutheranHawkeye · May 9, 2009

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Just as we do not worship the elements, neither do we worship one who is filled with Christ. Again, the joy, peace and comfort and Christian love that we feel when we fellowship with other Christians, or attend service for that matter, is adoration of our Lord, at least in my books. I think our understanding of true adoration is clouded by our understanding of the Roman Catholic practice.
When our Catholic brothers and sisters kneel before a monstrance or tabernacle, and pray or meditate on our Lord, is this a lot different than when I kneel before the Altar in my Church and pray and meditate? ...or any where else for that matter?

We don't worship the elements, nor one who is filled with Christ, but the Eucharist is different because it is not just the elements simply and this is what I'm getting at. Our Lord also becomes physically present within us from the Eucharist right? If scripture wasn't silent on the continual presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I would be a proponent of Eucharistic Adoration outside of the Divine Sevice, but because we don't know I think it's best to consume all of the elements during the DS.

LutherNut · May 9, 2009

LutheranHawkeye said:
I just worship our Lord's presence in the Eucharist after the time of consecration and right up until reception. What it sounds like Rev and some others are suggesting is that we ignore our Lord's Presence until reception. I can't do that, it's kind of a big deal when Christ becomes physically present in the room...lol. If I am adoring the sacrament I see nothing unbiblical about it, it can't be idolatrous because we are worshiping the physical presence of Christ. The only time of the week we get to worship him when he is physically and literally feet away. Amirite?

Doesn't the Scripture say that where two or three are gathered, He is there in their midst? Would He not be considered "feet away" anytime two or three or more are gathered, whether for the Sacrament or not?

I think it would be best for the sake of this discussion that the term "Eucharistic Adoration" be defined. Just what do you mean by "Eucharistic Adoration"? The very term provokes a distinct and singular meaning that is not consistant with Confessional Lutheran theology.

seajoy · May 9, 2009

filosofer said:
Regardless of how the question is asked, it comes back to the fact that Scripture tells us "how to adore" -- by eating and drinking. Anything else is what we as humans devise as "adoring," in effect saying, "Jesus, what you instituted was great, but ya know, it would really be better if you allowed us to determine how to adore you."

hmmm... sounds like a first commandment issue, doesn't it?

Though in a different way, 2 pastors have told us what we should and should not be doing. Since the bible tells us how to adore...I'll stick with that - not make up my own thing. Shouldn't our 2 pastors know what they are talking about???? sheeesh.

LutherNut · May 9, 2009

DaRev said:
I guess the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the LCMS seminaries have no idea what they are doing. Anyone considering attending either institution to become an ordained pastor, don't waste your time. Just read wikipedia and draw your own conclusions regarding theology in the Lutheran Church. Those collared guys are clueless.

And people wonder why the LCMS is headed down the toilet. Why do congregations bother calling pastors? They don't listen to them anyway.

seajoy · May 9, 2009

LutherNut said:
Doesn't the Scripture say that where two or three are gathered, He is there in their midst? Would He not be considered "feet away" anytime two or three or more are gathered, whether for the Sacrament or not?

I think it would be best for the sake of this discussion that the term "Eucharistic Adoration" be defined. Just what do you mean by "Eucharistic Adoration"? The very term provokes a distinct and singular meaning that is not consistant with Confessional Lutheran theology.

Thanks, LN.

LutheranHawkeye · May 9, 2009

LutherNut said:
Doesn't the Scripture say that where two or three are gathered, He is there in their midst? Would He not be considered "feet away" anytime two or three or more are gathered, whether for the Sacrament or not?

I never really defined that presence as physical...am I wrong to do so?

LutheranHawkeye · May 9, 2009

LutherNut said:
And people wonder why the LCMS is headed down the toilet. Why do congregations bother calling pastors? They don't listen to them anyway.

This is true...yet doesn't really address the Kieshnick types that come out of the seminaries, and I still don't get as to how Luther's treatise on the Adoration of the Sacrament is not confessional.

wildboar · May 9, 2009

I apologize if any of my posts sounded contentious or as if I thought I knew more than the pastors here. I'm just trying to understand and get a clearer explanation.

LutheranHawkeye · May 9, 2009

wildboar said:
I apologize if any of my posts sounded contentious or as if I thought I knew more than the pastors here. I'm just trying to understand and get a clearer explanation.

Same here, I'm just tired of getting snapped at.

doulos_tou_kuriou · May 9, 2009

LutheranHawkeye said:
I never really defined that presence as physical...am I wrong to do so?

this is part of the topic at hand in the thread "interesting to think about", take look, give some input.

WildStrawberry · May 9, 2009

I believe that Jesus IS physically present, in with and under, in the Sacrament. How He's present physically is a mystery that I'm not sure we're meant to understand. It just IS.

When I take communion, I enter the chancel area in reverence. I stand at the altar rail and when Pastor welcomes us to the Table of The Lord, I make the sign of the Cross (in the Eastern manner ) and make a small curtsy type movement. (I'm usually in a skirt or dress) When the Body is placed in my hand, I hold it for a moment thanking God for His presence, for the Gift of His True Body. Same when I take the Cup...although I don't hold it for a moment since it's the common cup...I pray and thank Him for His Precious Blood, spilled for me at the Cross.

Is that Adoration? Perhaps. But I'm not adoring the communion wafer or the wine. It's the sacrifice behind it...the love...the forgiveness...the absolute PEACE that is given to me at that very moment...

And as I think about it...I'm not adoring all of that either. I...well I hesitate to say I "revel" in it although that is an apt word. If I could take Communion every hour of every day...I would. Because it's THAT important to me.

But it's not a work that *I* do. Communion is all about what HE did for us...HIS body, HIS blood. The only worthy sacrifice for the sins of the world. We do it in remembrance of Him...of His Atoning Sacrifice for the world. We adore Him in our remembrance...in our eating and drinking of His TRUE body and blood that is physically there.

And I'm rambling. Sorry.

LutheranHawkeye · May 9, 2009

WildStrawberry said:
Is that Adoration? Perhaps. But I'm not adoring the communion wafer or the wine. It's the sacrifice behind it...the love...the forgiveness...the absolute PEACE that is given to me at that very moment...

And as I think about it...I'm not adoring all of that either. I...well I hesitate to say I "revel" in it although that is an apt word. If I could take Communion every hour of every day...I would. Because it's THAT important to me.
And I'm rambling. Sorry.

I think revel is the word I'm looking for...case closed. I don't think I worship the Eucharist, but I get super excited for it by thinking about his presence within the Eucharist. So maybe I'm not adoring it.

porterross · May 10, 2009

WildStrawberry said:
I believe that Jesus IS physically present, in with and under, in the Sacrament. How He's present physically is a mystery that I'm not sure we're meant to understand. It just IS.

When I take communion, I enter the chancel area in reverence. I stand at the altar rail and when Pastor welcomes us to the Table of The Lord, I make the sign of the Cross (in the Eastern manner ) and make a small curtsy type movement. (I'm usually in a skirt or dress) When the Body is placed in my hand, I hold it for a moment thanking God for His presence, for the Gift of His True Body. Same when I take the Cup...although I don't hold it for a moment since it's the common cup...I pray and thank Him for His Precious Blood, spilled for me at the Cross.

Is that Adoration? Perhaps. But I'm not adoring the communion wafer or the wine. It's the sacrifice behind it...the love...the forgiveness...the absolute PEACE that is given to me at that very moment...

And as I think about it...I'm not adoring all of that either. I...well I hesitate to say I "revel" in it although that is an apt word. If I could take Communion every hour of every day...I would. Because it's THAT important to me.

But it's not a work that *I* do. Communion is all about what HE did for us...HIS body, HIS blood. The only worthy sacrifice for the sins of the world. We do it in remembrance of Him...of His Atoning Sacrifice for the world. We adore Him in our remembrance...in our eating and drinking of His TRUE body and blood that is physically there.

And I'm rambling. Sorry.

Very well stated. Thank you, Kae.

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