ECF's -Which ones were right?

[Rick Otto]

quote=Anglian;Dear Rick,

As I pointed out to Simon, during the iconoclastic controversy all the arguments he and you use were considered by the Church, which eventually decided they were wrong - i.e. not the word of God.

A tragedy to be sure.

Of course, those who prefer their own opinion will have no problem telling the Church it is wrong;

Absolutely no problem at all. If I think you are full of bullfeathers I will be honest about it if you ask. I don't maintain undeserved respect for failed authority figures, especialy self-appointed ones.
.

neither will they have a problem with telling those who venerate these objects that they are wrong;

Absolutely not. Indeed, they are wrong. NO PROBLEM.

nor, yet, will they have a problem destroying these things because they are sure they are right.

This is the problem with personal infallibility, you end up telling everyone else they are wrong,

This is the problem with blindly trusting one sect, you end up telling everyone else they are wrong...

and, if you are strong enough, destroying things of beauty because your own personal interpretation of God's word demands it

.

The Taliban blew up ancient Buddhist statues in the name of the same conception you and Simon propound;

LOL, now we're terrorists because we've dared to have a differing opinion! Ok, I'll play: The Inquisition destroyed lives on the same modus operandi you & your ilk propound.

the English Puritans destroyed thousands of beautiful Church decorations in the name of the same notion.

As has already been established,

Just saying it doesn't establish it.

all your views were considered by the Church - which even accepted them for a while - until better sense prevailed. Of course, those who simply cherry pick one point in Church history to prove their point, are hardly likely to be convinced when it is pointed out that the Church has, for more than a thousand years, been firmly of the opposite opinion.

Peace,

 

[simonthezealot]

, but upsetting Simon is not the same as upsetting God.

Really Anglian is this kind of comment necessary?
My response then should it be thusly "you can have your big huge head image of Christ in the middle of your living room, I am okay with that. Personally I WON'T...But I'm not troubled by it either"...

What does seem more troubling, is the meditation on it to me the use as a step up if you will, that "window" to Him as I've heard it explained

 

[Thekla]

In Orthodoxy, the Gospel is sometimes referred to as a "verbal icon of Christ"; we do not mistake the Gospel for Christ Himself.

The visual icons are likewise not considered "the thing itself".

God pronounced creation "good", not inherently evil. There is right use and wrong use of the material world. Right use includes the recognition that matter is created by God, to be offered back to God in thanks, and is always to be used to the glory of God. To confuse God with the matter He created is clearly not right use.

Both the OT and NT describe events where God used matter: the burning bush; the rock which, when struck, gave water; dirt mixed with the spittle of Christ to heal; the pool of Bethsaida; the handkerchief of Paul ... these examples and others have been given before.

It has not yet been suggested we abandon the verbal icon of Christ for the fear that it may be put to "wrong use". Nor has God been criticized for using matter. Perhaps we have forgotten the danger of 'neo-platonizing' in Christianity, which in some circles has led to the disparaging of God's creation, and the loss of the sense of "right use".

 

[Yarddog]

Hello Anglian,
It seems that Simon and Rick choose to use OT verses, forbidding idol worship, and apply these to images, not used as worship. As you have pointed out, and was also what I wanted to point out, God told David and Moses, what images he wanted in Tent of His presence and the Temple.

God would not tell the makers of these articles to do something that was sinful, thus, not all images were against God's will.

If Simon uses the OT to condemn, he must also use the OT to to see what is allowed.

If he uses the NT, then let him show where Jesus condemned the images in the Temple.

Did Jesus also condemn the image of Caesar on the coin or did he understand that the coin was not an object of worship?

God Bless,
Yarddog

 

[simonthezealot]

What is it gives you the right to tell the rest of us that we are worshipping statues and icons when we tell you we are not?

Peace,

Anglian

Where once in this thread did I EVER say you worship these items?...Your guilty conscience is clouding your vision!

 

[Anglian]

Dear Rick,

I'm sorry you are upset.

When you have calmed down and post something that makes a little more sense, I'd be happy to continue our discussion.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Rick Otto]

With all due respect, if everyone went strictly by the words actually written in the Bible, there would be NO arguments about whether the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ or just a symbol. Everyone would believe it is the Body and Blood of our Lord, because that is what the Bible says.

Your entire religion is heavily bedecked with symbols, but when it comes to this metaphor, symbols are "just a symbol". Fascinating.

 

[Rick Otto]

Dear Rick,

I'm sorry you are upset.

When you have calmed down and post something that makes a little more sense, I'd be happy to continue our discussion.

Peace,

Anglian

I'm sorry you feel the need to condescend & patronize me.
When you get some respect maybe we'll talk.

 

[simonthezealot]

Where once in this thread did I EVER say you worship these items?...Your guilty conscience is clouding your vision!

ANGLIAN?

 

[Anglian]

Dear Simon,

You ask:

Really Anglian is this kind of comment necessary?

I fear so, since you seem to quote your own words in exactly the same way you quote Scripture. My comment was made with reference to your reddened and underlined words, which are not Biblical, but which you emphasised as though they had some authority.

My response then should it be thusly "you can have your big huge head image of Christ in the middle of your living room, I am okay with that. Personally I WON'T...But I'm not troubled by it either"...

Excellent; we agree.

What does seem more troubling, is the meditation on it to me the use as a step up if you will, that "window" to Him as I've heard it explained

Since I'm not privy to how it has been explained to you, I can't, alas, help here.

Where once in this thread did I EVER say you worship these items?...Your guilty conscience is clouding your vision!

If you are saying that you have not alleged that people who venerate statues and icons are worshipping them, I accept that.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Anglian]

I'm sorry you feel the need to condescend & patronize me.
When you get some respect maybe we'll talk.

Dear Rick,

I have no wish to quarrel, so let us let it go.

peace,

Anglian

 

[simonthezealot]

If you are saying that you have not alleged that people who venerate statues and icons are worshipping them, I accept that.

Peace,

Anglian

You accused me of it! What was your basis Anglian?

You said,"What is it gives you the right to tell the rest of us that we are worshipping statues and icons when we tell you we are not?

 

[Thekla]

Where once in this thread did I EVER say you worship these items?...

isn't this the central point for the discussion of iconography here

(in reference to the commandment)

 

[Anglian]

Dear Simon,

From the general tenor of your comments in other threads we have been on, I had gained the impression that you thought that those of us who venerate icons and statues were worshipping them.

If this was incorrect, I apologise, and accept your word that you do not think that veneration is the same as worship; indeed, I am delighted to be wrong on this.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Uphill Battle]

agh. Their just pictures. Distressing that someone would have a problem if someone has a picture.

equally distressing that some seem completely unable to worship without them.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Yarddog;Hello Anglian,
It seems that Simon and Rick choose to use OT verses, forbidding idol worship, and apply these to images, not used as worship. As you have pointed out, and was also what I wanted to point out, God told David and Moses, what images he wanted in Tent of His presence and the Temple.

God would not tell the makers of these articles to do something that was sinful, thus, not all images were against God's will.

Right, The images HE specificaly ordained.
The command not to make images was His to US. He was not binding Himself, He was binding US. Exceptions to a rule do not disprove the rule.

 

[Rick Otto]

agh. Their just pictures. Distressing that someone would have a problem if someone has a picture.

equally distressing that some seem completely unable to worship without them.

It's not a problem for me.
Me not approving them seems to be a problem for others.

 

[Thekla]

Right, The images HE specificaly ordained.
The command not to make images was His to US. He was not binding Himself, He was binding US. Exceptions to a rule do not disprove the rule.

just to note:

1.if the commandment is against all images, then the Amish most completely honor this by eschewing all representation (in the home as well)

2. the Gospel is considered an icon of Christ in our tradition

3. the commandment per LXX translation concerns idols, not images

 

[Anglian]

Dear Thekla,

Since we seem to have established that neither Rick nor Simon have any problem with our veneration of icons, perhaps we can move on to see exactly what the point of the OP is?

We seem to have established to every one's satisfaction that no one round here is claiming the ECFs were infallible, so I am still struggling to understand what the OP is asking? We can know which of them are correct in so far as what they write is consonant with the entirety of Holy Tradition; that's the Orthodox answer. Let us see what others have to say.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Uphill Battle]

just to note:

1.if the commandment is against all images, then the Amish most completely honor this by eschewing all representation (in the home as well)

then perhaps the Amish are the only ones who are going to heaven.

2. the Gospel is considered an icon of Christ in our tradition

hilighted the relevant bit.

3. the commandment per LXX translation concerns idols, not images

true enough. it would seem that some find that to be a very fine line to tread.