• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

(Eastern Orthodox Only) Are forced conversions immoral?

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,428
21,118
Earth
✟1,688,072.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married

you are not an Orthodox bishop, so you don't determine what is or is not heresy. especially since you aren't Orthodox.
 
Upvote 0

TheLostCoin

A Lonesome Coin
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2016
1,507
822
Ohio
✟279,420.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
being disobedient is not the same as heresy.

and you needn't teach us about our own history.

With avenues like Public Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy in Dialogue, it seems that some Orthodox do need to be taught their own history.
 
Upvote 0

TheLostCoin

A Lonesome Coin
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2016
1,507
822
Ohio
✟279,420.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
you are not an Orthodox bishop, so you don't determine what is or is not heresy. especially since you aren't Orthodox.
You're right, I'm out of line. God forgive me.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,428
21,118
Earth
✟1,688,072.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
With avenues like Public Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy in Dialogue, it seems that some Orthodox do need to be taught their own history.

sure, by other Orthodox. and neither me nor buz supports either of those sites.
 
Upvote 0

Not David

Antiochian Orthodox
Apr 6, 2018
7,393
5,278
26
USA
✟243,137.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I thought buz talked about proselytism of heretics such as Evangelicals and JWs toward Orthodox. That's why he mentioned Greek laws against that.

If it is about proselytzing non-Orthodox, then I am confused since there is a long history of that happening like TheLostCoin mentioned.
 
Reactions: All4Christ
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,514
New York
✟219,964.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Whether the Romans, or Ethiopians, or Slavs or the Mayans of Guatamala or the 3rd century inhabitants of Edessa, the society converted by taking direction from their leaders, whether tribal or king. Societies are not converted because a few random inhabitants convert but because the society as a whole decides to go that direction.
There has never been any nation en masse converting to any religion through proselytization only when its kings decide to take them there.
I remember speaking to a Salvadorean co-worker who told me his little village in El Salvador had a RC church, Pentecostal church, Baptist church, and a Jehovah Witness temple. Let's not get into how western governments use christianity and her inept missionaries as a weapon of western imperialism as they have in Korea, pre communist China and now in the Ukraine.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

E.C.

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2007
13,874
1,438
✟181,827.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Side note,

Orthodoxy originally reached Africa via St Mark the Apostle who was later martyred there. Not too long later, Orthodoxy spread to Ethiopia and North Africa. The Ethiopians today are still predominately Ethiopian Orthodox and North Africa later experienced Islamic invasions as well as the Great Schism with parts of that region following Rome's path.

Now, in more recent history, Orthodoxy was invited to Uganda by a few Ugandan Anglican clergy who were fed up with Anglicanism's "modernization" and looking for alternatives. They read about the Orthodox, became intrigued, and traveled up to Alexandria to ask the patriarch there to send missionaries to teach them about Orthodoxy. I believe this was sometime around the 1950s. Orthodoxy tends to appeal to Africa partly because there isn't a colonial attachment to it like Catholicism and Protestantism. Orthodoxy is also the only indigenous Church in Africa (points for autocephaly) and encourages the usage of the local vernacular languages.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,797
8,179
PA
Visit site
✟1,225,255.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Where did your source come from with this? Obviously they shouldn’t buy people into the faith, but providing services to people is showing love. Proselytize means to share one’s beliefs, not just “sheep stealing”. There is nothing wrong with sharing what we believe. Do you think IOCC is wrong?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,797
8,179
PA
Visit site
✟1,225,255.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
A missionary is to show the love of God. Orthodox evangelism is showing the love of God. It is being willing to speak to what we believe. It is volunteering at a soup kitchen or giving hospitality to those in need. It is being charitable and thinking of others over ourselves. It is visiting the sick and the people in prison. It is caring for the orphans, the widows and the poor. If someone can serve others by opening a health clinic, then that is a wonderful service to help people. If they help people after a disaster, then they are doing what we are taught to do through scripture. If they are willing to share why they do what they do, then they are doing what we should be doing. Sharing our faith isn’t coercion - and sharing our faith isn’t just in words.

I’m thankful that people didn’t skip telling me about Orthodoxy just because my “nation” isn’t Orthodox!

We are to share the good news - and that’s not hiding it inside the church alone or just sharing with leaders of nations. If we could only share with leaders of nations, then St Paul would be going against our teachings, which is of course not accurate. We don’t intentionally participate in “sheep stealing”, but we certainly can share our faith.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,797
8,179
PA
Visit site
✟1,225,255.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
“Nothing is more frigid than a Christian who is indifferent to the salvation of others. Indeed I wonder if such a person can be a true Christian. To become a disciple of Christ is to obey his law of love; and obedience to the law brings joy beyond measure and description. Love means to want the best for others, sharing with them the joy of love. So the Christian feels compelled to speak to others about the law of love, and the joy of obeying this law. Of course, many people are shy about speaking to others; in their case actions motivated by love will be a most eloquent testimony. But those who are not shy will surely want to express their joy at every opportunity. There is no need to use fine words or elegant phrases; even the most uneducated people can convey joyful love by the spirit which accompanies their words. Even slaves have been known to convert their masters and mistresses by the sincerity of their speech.”

– On Living Simply, St John Chrysostom
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,897
14,169
✟465,838.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private

I'm a little bit confused why you quoted my post. Is this directed towards me in particular? Did I say something wrong? I'm Coptic Orthodox, so I'm well acquainted with our brothers and sisters in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, and how Christianity came to Africa with St. Mark our Evangelist.


Yes. Met. Kallistos Ware mentioned this is The Orthodox Church, if I recall correctly. There are Eastern Orthodox in Uganda and (if I recall correctly; I don't actually own the book anymore) Ghana who have histories like this. It's wonderful to see people turning away from churches forced on them by colonial powers to more faithful, ancient ways of worship.

Orthodoxy tends to appeal to Africa partly because there isn't a colonial attachment to it like Catholicism and Protestantism.

The same is true in Latin America and among people from that region, and I would assume probably most all where Christianity came with colonialism. There are Antiochian Orthodox churches in Mexico, Venezuela, and Guatemala that are full of native people from those countries, and when a Mexican lady showed up to our liturgy (Coptic Orthodox Church of St. Bishoy) in Las Cruces, NM some years ago she told us that she was interested in the Coptic Orthodox Church because it was a church of the native people of their country (Egypt), in a way that the Roman Catholic Church could never truly be in her home country, because it was forced on her people largely against their will. People are very attuned to this difference.
 
Upvote 0

mothcorrupteth

Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik
Jun 3, 2017
498
439
39
Huntsville, AL
✟49,844.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I take Buz more to be condemning a particular type of proselytism, not "proselytism" per se as we generally speak of it in English (i.e. mission work). I mean, these anti-proselytism laws in Eastern Europe basically get passed because Prots (or worse: JWs) come in and don't have any sense of caution about their effect on fragmenting families and communities. Christ taught us that this fragmentation will occur, but what doesn't process with many Prots is that this doesn't mean you go looking to cause fragmentation. When you engage in forceful tactics, let alone outright forced conversion, you buy a very small short-term victory at the cost of a potential long-term victory with the culture. Respecting the context of the whole society is how Orthodoxy won Alaska. Not respecting the context of the whole society is what cost Catholics Japan.
 
Upvote 0

GoingByzantine

Seeking the Narrow Road
Site Supporter
Jun 19, 2013
3,304
1,100
✟115,375.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian

In the case of many sub-Saharan Orthodox churches, it was not a missionary movement that led to the mass conversion of people. Rather these churches originated when local church leaders sought out Orthodoxy and then converted their congregations. As I recall, this was the case in Uganda, Ghana and a few other countries. A similiar movement led to mass conversions in Central America among the local indigenous community. The key thing with these movements is that they were not "prosleytism" in the conventional sense. A bunch of white dudes from Europe/North America didn't go to some rural African village and force Orthodoxy on people, their local church leaders instead sought out the faith and then converted their own congregations. This is much the same way as how Russia for instance converted to EO.

What I believe that buzuxi is getting at is that the Evangelical way of "prosletyzing" is not compatable with Orthodoxy. Indeed many evangelicals use things like food, clean drinking water, and shelter as a tool to convert people. They aggresively go to lesser developed countries under the guise of humanitarian aid, and then more or less bribe poor villagers to become Christian by providing people with basic services. This is not compatable with Orthodoxy, although I will admit that some Eastern Orthodox (especially overzealous converts) do try these methods.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,897
14,169
✟465,838.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Yes, I understood that after his reply. Like some other posters, I was initially confused because in English we do not use the word "proselytism" to refer only to the work of these bad actors, but also to missionary work more generally.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,797
8,179
PA
Visit site
✟1,225,255.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Honestly, if you aren’t bribing people, what is wrong with trying to help people who are disadvantaged? Coming to live in a place and doing something like opening up an orphanage, for example, isn’t forcing people to become Orthodox. If we only witnessed to people through waiting for local leaders to search for Orthodoxy, then the places with no knowledge of God would have no chance to learn about Orthodoxy.

A good example of Orthodox evangelism is the process of bringing Orthodoxy to Alaska. That is the epitome of Orthodox evangelism. Another example is St John Maximovitch of Shenghai. He founded an orphanage there in China and was quickly involved in local charities.

Bribing people is wrong. Evangelism in its proper context, however, certainly is compatible with Orthodoxy
 
Last edited:
Reactions: dzheremi
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,797
8,179
PA
Visit site
✟1,225,255.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Certainly I agree that we need to respect the context of the whole society as not use forceful tactics. The missionaries in Alaska still proselytized though and often went village to village teaching about Orthodoxy. They translated scripture, developed catechisms and opened schools. Considering that, the missionaries there weren’t bribing. They were evangelizing. Sharing the good news.


At times, and I am referring to something I noticed in the general populace of Orthodoxy, it seems that some throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak, in regards to avoiding methodologies employed by some other Christian groups.
 
Upvote 0

mothcorrupteth

Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik
Jun 3, 2017
498
439
39
Huntsville, AL
✟49,844.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
No, I don't think you're wrong, either. And--Buz can correct me if I'm misinterpreting him, here--I don't think Buz is saying it's wrong to go to a little African village as a team of Orthodox medical professionals and pay witness to our faith in the process, or even to bring a priest with those doctors and nurses so he can tend to their spiritual needs. But I think if you go there and start actively pushing people to convert, or otherwise imply that your medical services are contingent on the success of the missionary activity, you are indirectly bribing the people. Whatever your intentions are, they are likely to think you will only treat them medically if they make gestures of conversion in return. But if you go there and send off the vibe that you're willing to help whether they convert or not, that you're asking for nothing more than common respect in return, you won't get immediate nominal converts, but you will change more minds in the right direction.
 
Reactions: All4Christ
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,797
8,179
PA
Visit site
✟1,225,255.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I agree with the approach you listed here. I have seen (in other contexts), however, some Orthodox irl as well as online who seem to think anything like that is wrong and is forceful, since it resembles what some non-Orthodox missionaries do. Some seem to feel it is ok to just stay in our churches and not reach out to the community. That is concerning in my opinion.
 
Upvote 0

mothcorrupteth

Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik
Jun 3, 2017
498
439
39
Huntsville, AL
✟49,844.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
And again, that's something Prots don't understand because they view salvation as an instantaneous state change, not a process of evolution. When you see it as a process, you're more comfortable with little steps to success. When you want an instantaneous change, the process can feel like you're wasting your time.
 
Upvote 0

mothcorrupteth

Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik
Jun 3, 2017
498
439
39
Huntsville, AL
✟49,844.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Well, I don't doubt it, and that's definitely off base. But all I mean to say is that I'm not convinced yet that Buz is on that side.
 
Reactions: All4Christ
Upvote 0