Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

[redleghunter]

I can't agree to that. Either it is or it is not. We have people here who have been told by their own denominations that it's not right, not in Scripture, etc. They naturally believe what their own clergy tell them. This -- misinformation -- cannot be the test of whether reliance upon God's word for doctrinal guidance is right or wrong.

I would add that Protestants and Evangelicals are not immune to applying their own traditions.

Why SS is so important to weed out manmade traditions.

 

[Thursday]

Which Catholic Church? East or West? We have Eastern Orthodox who claim the Roman Catholic Church was not founded by Christ.

EO and Catholics agree that the Church was united for hundreds of years. It was founded by Christ.

We disagree about who left who.

 

[Thursday]

Why SS is so important to weed out manmade traditions.

SS doesn't weed out any traditions. You can find many doctrines taught by SS churches that are directly contradicted by other SS churches.

 

[redleghunter]

The Curators didn't paint the Mona Lisa. Members of the Catholic Church did write the New Testament, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The Christians who wrote the autographs Inspired by the Holy Spirit were not the Christians who compiled the canon. Unless one subscribes to the liberal theology of a Bart Ehrman.

 

[Thursday]

The Christians who wrote the autographs Inspired by the Holy Spirit were not the Christians who compiled the canon. .

All were members of the Catholic Church.

 

[sculleywr]

Example please.

Example of Sola Scriptura failing to lead to the truth? Arminianism Vs. Calvinism Vs. Pelagianism Vs. Synergism. Four different theories of salvation, three of which came about from Sola Scriptura, all three of which are contradicting each other.

 

[redleghunter]

That's what the bible teaches:

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

1 Tim 3:15
so that if I am delayed, you will know how people must conduct themselves in the household of God. This is the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

The Eastern Orthodox use these verses too. And they make it clear that it is not the Roman Church as they refuse Roman Catholics communion.

The Mormons also use two of the verses quoted above too.

 

[redleghunter]

Example of Sola Scriptura failing to lead to the truth? Arminianism Vs. Calvinism Vs. Pelagianism Vs. Synergism. Four different theories of salvation, three of which came about from Sola Scriptura, all three of which are contradicting each other.

You forgot semi-Pelagianism which some of the ancient churches uphold today in opposition to the Council of Orange.

I digress....

Do churches which adhere or lean Calvinist deny sharing The Lord's Table with a Methodist? If so have not seen it.

Yet your church denies the Eucharist to Catholics. Obviously there is a doctrinal division.

 

[sculleywr]

You forgot semi-Pelagianism which some of the ancient churches uphold today in opposition to the Council of Orange.

I digress....

Do churches which adhere or lean Calvinist deny sharing The Lord's Table with a Methodist? If so have not seen it.

Yet your church denies the Eucharist to Catholics. Obviously there is a doctrinal division.

Semi-pelagianism is a false premise because it pretends that the belief came AFTER Pelagius, when it was there LONG before Pelagius. It is Synergism and it's a lot older than either Calvin or Arminius's theories, which are based on the assumption that all salvation is about is forgiveness. Not relationship, not becoming sanctified. Just forgiveness.

We do not pretend there is Communion where there is none. Doctrinal Communion must proceed the physical Eucharist. This is because when we receive Communion, we say that what is taught is in full unity with Christ and that I am in unity with what is taught here.

 

[JacksBratt]

Have you repented for every single one of your sins? Have you even gone through contrition for every single one?

First of all, I must ask, have you? When was your last confession?
Second, every night I come to the Lord in prayer and bring my sins of that day to Him for forgiveness. Sometimes at my work station during that day or in my car as I drive.
A priest is not going to be help in any way shape or form, when it comes to your question to me. I need no priest. I have Christ who is closer than any brother, mother or human can be.. He knows me better than I know myself.

Anyone who asks for forgiveness must go through some sort of contrition in order to even feel like they need to be forgiven. If you are not contrite, why ask?

Let me ask this. You are driving to work. Someone cuts you off on the road and you curse. Take the Lords name in vain. Then when you get to work, someone asks how you are and you say "Fine". A lie because you have a hangover from your drinking the night before.
Now, before you get to your priest for your next confession, you die of a heart attack. Your body is not found until Monday morning. You did not get the last rights.....

Do you go to hell? Are you still saved? Is Christ going to punish you or hold those unconfessed, unrepentant, unforgiven by a priest sins against you?

 

[JacksBratt]

Laying on a hands was a common Jewish practice to confer authority or divine power. The early church was not Congregationalist.

You, then, are saying that other mere men are now choosing who has this power. Right?

How is that even possible?

 

[JacksBratt]

John 10:16

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Wasn't you suppose to be Sola Scriptura?.....

At least you should be more learned in scriptura. We catholics say that We are Scriptura and Tradition our dutty if to know well the scripture and to understand the Traditions which the Apostles didn't write

Read the whole chapter here. Jesus' original sheep are the people of Israel. The other sheep are the gentiles.. During this age of grace. The time from His ascension to the time of the tribulation and before the millennial age.... we are all one flock. Jew, Gentile....all as one. The old sheep and the new. Anyone who listens to His voice.

 

[sculleywr]

First of all, I must ask, have you? When was your last confession?
Second, every night I come to the Lord in prayer and bring my sins of that day to Him for forgiveness. Sometimes at my work station during that day or in my car as I drive.
A priest is not going to be help in any way shape or form, when it comes to your question to me. I need no priest. I have Christ who is closer than any brother, mother or human can be.. He knows me better than I know myself.

Anyone who asks for forgiveness must go through some sort of contrition in order to even feel like they need to be forgiven. If you are not contrite, why ask?

Let me ask this. You are driving to work. Someone cuts you off on the road and you curse. Take the Lords name in vain. Then when you get to work, someone asks how you are and you say "Fine". A lie because you have a hangover from your drinking the night before.
Now, before you get to your priest for your next confession, you die of a heart attack. Your body is not found until Monday morning. You did not get the last rights.....

Do you go to hell? Are you still saved? Is Christ going to punish you or hold those unconfessed, unrepentant, unforgiven by a priest sins against you?

But you're missing the primary purpose of Confession. It isn't just forgiveness from God. It is seeking counsel on dealing with the Passions against which we struggle, whether it be greed, pride, lust, gluttony, or whathaveyou.

Trying to act like it has to be legalistic is missing the point that the Sacraments are there for sanctification of soul and body, for the preparing before the door opens, so that we might not find ourselves with our wicks untrimmed and no oil in the lamp.

 

[samir]

"Some book" ?

Yes. The bishops at Nicea didn't get together and have a bible study and debate each others personal interpretations. They looked at what the apostles taught and sought to preserve that apostolic faith.

The council of Trent was a counter reformation move. Its primary purpose was to refute and condemn Protestantism. Gods word as scripture alone being deemed anathema by the council was condemning Gods word itself. Just as they condemned faith alone.

Trent did not condemn scripture. No one in the early church believe scripture alone or faith alone. Both are man-made traditions invented in the 16th century.

 

[BobRyan]

This is not going to be some long winded word game. It is easy.

1) God's Word is True, incontrovertibly true.
2) Scripture is God's Word.
3) Scripture is incontrovertibly true.

4) Prove another source of incontrovertible truth.
5) No other physical source of incontrovertible truth on earth has been proven.

By default, there is only Sola Scriptura.

Yes, there have been multiple threads on SS. The problem is that all the attacks on SS put the burden to prove there are no other source of incontrovertible truth on the holders to SS. How ridiculous is that? The burden is on those that believe in another source of incontrovertible truth. Despite being asked multiple times in other threads, no proof has been given for incontrovertible truth in any other earthly source.

So if you think anything but SS, I challenge you to prove to me another source of incontrovertible truth.

Your argument is essentially that "The Bible is the Word of God" -- and of course even Catholics will agree to this at some point. So then since the Bible is the Word of God - sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition must be the model we are to use... since all doctrine and tradition are not at the high standard of "the Bible".

however the Catholic argument is that tradition is equal to the Bible. So it is better to find the Bible itself endorsing the sola scriptura testing doctrine - and then when man-made doctrine is found to oppose the Bible - you have your "proof' in favor of sola scriptura that even some Catholics will accept.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JacksBratt]

In those times Jesus Was Talking of the Jews and the Non Jews who would believe in him and FOLLOW HIM, not of many "denominations" There is only one true church which Christ founded. The Catholic Church.

Just WOW.

So, what do you do with all the people who are true believers in Christ, asked for forgiveness, accepting His gift of salvation, yet were so foolish as to choose Jewish, Baptist, Pentecostal, Muslim or Scientologist parents?

Now salvation is determined by your parents and their parents and their parents parents.... OH I guess you could convert to Catholicism, then you could be saved... FUNNY don't recall Jesus telling us, anywhere, that we must become Catholics in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then, too, I guess He lied in John 3:16 when He stated "whosoever" believeth in Him.

Just WOW I cannot believe someone posted that...

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Yes. The bishops at Nicea didn't get together and have a bible study and debate each others personal interpretations. They looked at what the apostles taught and sought to preserve that apostolic faith.

And how did they look at what the apostles taught?

Trent did not condemn scripture. No one in the early church believe scripture alone or faith alone. Both are man-made traditions invented in the 16th century.

You should really dedicate time to reading all of the sessions that pertain to the Council of Trent.

 

[sculleywr]

You, then, are saying that other mere men are now choosing who has this power. Right?

How is that even possible?

The Apostles were mere men. They weren't the Justice League of the time. They were ordinary men with just as much capability of error as you and I. But they were given this authority because the Church was given the authority. The Apostles were not the only ones to whom Christ gave the authority. Remember that the other disciples were also there when Christ sent the Spirit. It wasn't JUST the Apostles. In point of fact, two of the authors of the epistles and gospels in the NT were not Apostles sent directly by Christ, so the authority passed from those who recruited them, namely from Paul on to John-Mark and Luke. So there are second-generation Christians who had so much authority in their writings and teachings that they were able to write Scripture and lead with the same authority as Paul and Peter.

Because we know from them that the authority to lay on hands was transmitted by the laying on of hands, we no longer have a straight line that can be drawn. Mark and Luke are exceptions to the rule of being sent directly by Christ. Because of this, the argument that Ignatius and Clement aren't of authority falls apart since they were also second generation.

So where do you draw the line if the Scripture does not draw it for us? Nowhere. At no point did the authority of the Head of the Church ever leave the Church, because the Head never left.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

All were members of the Catholic Church.

And so you use deception to fool the simple that your church, the RCC did something special. Why don't you use clearer words like agreeing that the apostles wrote the NT and the RCC collated it? Instead you go from discussing how in the 4th century the Catholic Church, aka the RCC gave us the NT to refuting the Mona Lisa analogy by saying the writers of the NT were members of the Catholic Church, aka in this instance the universal church of Christ. The apostles that wrote the NT were not the Church or the Catholic Church and certainly not the RCC. You twist words to insinuate the RCC as special as the first apostles, the true writers of NT scripture.

 

[JacksBratt]

But you're missing the primary purpose of Confession. It isn't just forgiveness from God. It is seeking counsel on dealing with the Passions against which we struggle, whether it be greed, pride, lust, gluttony, or whathaveyou.

Trying to act like it has to be legalistic is missing the point that the Sacraments are there for sanctification of soul and body, for the preparing before the door opens, so that we might not find ourselves with our wicks untrimmed and no oil in the lamp.

Ah...........ya............still don't need a priest............sorry. I have a direct line to Christ. I also have christian friends and relatives that I am happy to have as sources to hold me to my word and , Yep, a conscience.

Not everyone needs counsel on dealing with passions that are being struggled with. Not everyone has such problems. And those that do are not going to be helped by telling it to a priest.