Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

PeaceByJesus · Sep 1, 2016

Constantine the Sinner said:
Sola Scriptura is not the Word of God, it's a man-made doctrine. They didn't declare Scripture anathema, they declared the man-made doctrine that you need nothing but Scripture to be anathema. If you want to attack them for that, that's one thing, but what you're doing is lying.

I missed where SS was defined as need nothing but Scripture. Certainly that would be anathema, as if everything from reason to the teaching office of the church was superfluous, but that Scripture alone is the only infallible rule/standard for faith and morals as the only wholly inspired-of-God substantive body of Truth, and sufficient in its formal and material senses is what I see supported.

PeaceByJesus · Sep 1, 2016

chilehed said:
I answered the challenge of the OP, and proved that either there is a source of incontrovertible truth outside of Sacred Scripture, or else that we can't really be guaranteed of knowing what the true canon of Scripture is.

I missed that post. Could you provide it? Thanks

FireDragon76 · Sep 1, 2016

Fr. Jonathan at Conciliar Anglican seems to be the only non-Catholic/Orthodox I've encountered whose views of the Scriptures doesn't fall into circular reasoning at some point. But I would describe his viewpoint as more "Prima Scriptura", and unique to Anglicans/Episcopalians. Perhaps some Wesleyans also would share it, but I haven't delved into it in as much detail.

Albion · Sep 1, 2016

samir said:
I read the canon of those church councils and their 73 book canon was exactly the same as the canon the Catholic Church uses today

No, it isn't. The change is small, and affects the Apocrypya, but the point is that when people try to argue that the canon of the 4th century is unchangable, set in stone, etc. (except that those awful Protestants did change it)....

...it's not so.

And then there are all sorts of churches that are ancient and not at all Protestant which have their own additional books that most of the rest of us have never even heard of. Someone posted a list of these awhile back, but I don't know now easy it would be to find that now.

PeaceByJesus · Sep 1, 2016

Albion said:
No, it isn't. The change is small, and affects the Apocrypya, but the point is that when people try to argue that the canon of the 4th century is unchangable, set in stone, etc. (except that those awful Protestants did change it)....

...it's not so.

And then there are all sorts of churches that are ancient and not at all Protestant which have their own additional books that most of the rest of us have never even heard of. Someone posted a list of these awhile back, but I don't know now easy it would be to find that now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#Old_Testament

fhansen · Sep 1, 2016

Colter said:
That was my point to begin with, the men in church government never were infallible, they are like anyone else. The Hebrew priest who redacted the OT books that were authored by still other imperfect men, were not infallible.

Were the words spoken by the prophets and recorded in Scripture infallible? BTW, infallibility has no realtionship to impeccability-none at all.

JacksBratt · Sep 1, 2016

Norbert L said:
If it depended on SS that directly speaks to the topic of being saved, looking at Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9 and 1 John 4:2. Also add the conditions spoken by James in Acts 15:20. To the best of my understanding those that attend the RCC will be judged just like any other Christian sect, be it of a huge or tiny community. Matthew 25:31-46

You are correct. The RCC are no different than any other human being that lived on earth. When they stand before Christ, He will not flip to the standard operating protocol for Catholics in some manual.... all humans look the same to Christ. You either believed in Him as your savior, or, you didn't.

Alonso_Castillo · Sep 1, 2016

JacksBratt said:
You are correct. The RCC are no different than any other human being that lived on earth. When they stand before Christ, He will not flip to the standard operating protocol for Catholics in some manual.... all humans look the same to Christ. You either believed in Him as your savior, or, you didn't.

Christ will Save those who obeyed him, If Christ spoke of His CHURCH, and not of his CHURCHES is because he was Forming ONE FLOCK not MANY FLOCKS, Christ has ONLY ONE BODY, NOT MANY BODIES.

Hebrews 3:18-19

18 To whom did he swear that they should never attain his rest? Those who disobey him.
19 We see, then, the consequences of unbelief; this it was that denied them entrance.

18 τίσιν δὲ ὤμοσεν μὴ εἰσελεύσεσθαι εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσιν αὐτοῦ εἰ μὴ τοῖς ἀπειθήσασιν;
19 καὶ βλέπομεν ὅτι οὐκ ἠδυνήθησαν εἰσελθεῖν δι' ἀπιστίαν.

Albion · Sep 1, 2016

Alonso_Castillo said:
Christ will Save those who obeyed him.

That "rule" would effectively eliminate all of us.

The point of the incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ is not that he will save those who are obedient (for that is what the existing policy already was at the time of Jesus' birth) but that he will save sinners.

AnticipateHisComing · Sep 1, 2016

Catherineanne said:
I believe what the Bible says of itself. I do not plate it in gold, stick it on a pedestal and worship it, because first commandment.

If you don't treat scripture with the same truth and authority that Jesus did, then my comment stands.

Alonso_Castillo · Sep 1, 2016

Albion said:
That "rule" would effectively eliminate all of us.

The point of the incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ is not that he will save those who are obedient (for that is what the existing policy already was at the time of Jesus' birth) but that he will save sinners.

Hebrews 5:8-9

8 Son of God though he was, he learned obedience in the school of suffering,
9 and now, his full achievement reached, he wins eternal salvation for all those who render obedience to him.

Rick Otto · Sep 1, 2016

Alonso_Castillo said:
Christ will Save those who obeyed him, If Christ spoke of His CHURCH, and not of his CHURCHES is because he was Forming ONE FLOCK not MANY FLOCKS, Christ has ONLY ONE BODY, NOT MANY BODIES.

Hebrews 3:18-19

18 To whom did he swear that they should never attain his rest? Those who disobey him.
19 We see, then, the consequences of unbelief; this it was that denied them entrance.

18 τίσιν δὲ ὤμοσεν μὴ εἰσελεύσεσθαι εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσιν αὐτοῦ εἰ μὴ τοῖς ἀπειθήσασιν;
19 καὶ βλέπομεν ὅτι οὐκ ἠδυνήθησαν εἰσελθεῖν δι' ἀπιστίαν.

OK, as long as this isn't used to promote supremacism.-

fhansen · Sep 1, 2016

Actually the rule for most Protestants is that He'll save those who strictly believe. Either way, would there be a "protocol" for salvation that involves Christians only?

AnticipateHisComing · Sep 1, 2016

Alonso_Castillo said:
Christ will Save those who obeyed him

Albion said:
That "rule" would effectively eliminate all of us.

The point of the incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ is not that he will save those who are obedient (for that is what the existing policy already was at the time of Jesus' birth) but that he will save sinners.

The point of following God is not that we will ever stop sinning, it is that we want to stop and try to stop. So grace is still the reason for our salvation, but effort is the command.

Alonso_Castillo · Sep 1, 2016

AnticipateHisComing said:
The point of following God is not that we will ever stop sinning, it is that we want to stop and try to stop. So grace is still the reason for our salvation, but effort is the command.

Christ only Save those who obey him, and sin can be Forgiven by CONFESION, to CONFESS the sins to the Priests is OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST:

John 20:23
when you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven, when you hold them bound, they are held bound.

You are saved by grace, the same grace which gives you strenght enough to OBEY and remain in the flock of Christ, to be catholic is a VERY VERY Special Grace. To reject to Be Catholic is to Reject the saving Grace by an act of disbelief and disobedience.

AnticipateHisComing · Sep 1, 2016

PeaceByJesus said:
But contrary to Catholic contrivance, this is only rightly understood in the light of all Scripture, in which no one is told to confess to Catholic "priests," and the binding and loosing power refers to both judicial judgments as seen in Dt. 17:8-13, and which Mt. 18:15-18 corresponds to, as well as spiritual power which is provided for all believers as Mt. 18:19-20 expands it to, and as taught in James 5:16-20.

There needs to be a thread on the Church forgiving sins and binding/loosing. The common thought of Peter standing at the gates of heaven with a list of names is so far off from what scripture teaches.

PeaceByJesus said:
That is the burden of RCs to show from the NT, since it never manifest any apostolic successors being voted for, only that Matthias was chosen for Judas (even though James was martyred: Acts 12:1,2), which was in order to maintain the foundational number of apostles (cf. Rv. 21:14) and which was by the non-political Scriptural means of casting lots. (cf. Prov. 16:33)

But they won't because they can't.

Alonso_Castillo · Sep 1, 2016

AnticipateHisComing said:
There needs to be a thread on the Church forgiving sins and binding/loosing. The common thought of Peter standing at the gates of heaven with a list of names is so far off from what scripture teaches.

No where in the catechism of the Catholic Church you read of Peter at the Gates of Heaven. That is Gringo Cartoon fantasy.

AnticipateHisComing said:
But they won't because they can't.

When James died A new Bishop was put in his place just before Jerusalem was Destroyed.

Saint Simeón of Jerusalem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_of_Jerusalem

Rick Otto · Sep 1, 2016

PeaceByJesus said:
Is that Catholics believe in praying to created beings in Heaven, despite prayer being a most basic common practice, yet with absolutely zero examples of anyone but pagans praying to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord, even though there were plenty of angels to pray to in the OT era, as well as ascended OT saints in the New.

Show us:

1.Even one example where anyone prayed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, amid the approx. 200 prayers the Holy Spirit recorded for us in Scripture.
2. Any instruction on prayer to Heaven in which the addressee is anyone God, versus a created being in Heaven.
3. Even one example in which anyone in Heaven but God regularly hear and respond to prayers addressed to them, (elders and angels offering prayers in memorial as a preclude to judgment will not do), versus the Lord Jesus being the only unceasing Heavenly intercessor. (1 Tim. 2:5)
4. One example in which anyone from Heaven but God communicated with those on earth without both being personally present in the same realm.
5. One example in which earthly relations on earth have complete correspondence to those btwn created beings, in contrast to that not being the case.
6. Even one example of a common, necessary, fundamental doctrinal Christian practice for which the Holy Spirit does not provide even one single example, except by pagans in which it is condemned.
7. Even one example in which believers even sought the intercession of Mary on earth.
8. Even one example in which faithful believers kneel before other believers on earth in obeisance in sanctioned.
9. Why Catholics are exempt from the admonition not to think of mortals "above that which is written." (1Co. 4:6)
10. Even one example in which believers kneel before a statue and praise the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power and glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

Which manner of adulation would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

Likewise with "co-operative grace" and "progressive salvation".

Alonso_Castillo · Sep 1, 2016

PeaceByJesus said:
Is that Catholics believe in praying to created beings in Heaven, despite prayer being a most basic common practice, yet with absolutely zero examples of anyone but pagans praying to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord, even though there were plenty of angels to pray to in the OT era, as well as ascended OT saints in the New.

Show us:

1.Even one example where anyone prayed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, amid the approx. 200 prayers the Holy Spirit recorded for us in Scripture.
2. Any instruction on prayer to Heaven in which the addressee is anyone God, versus a created being in Heaven.
3. Even one example in which anyone in Heaven but God regularly hear and respond to prayers addressed to them, (elders and angels offering prayers in memorial as a preclude to judgment will not do), versus the Lord Jesus being the only unceasing Heavenly intercessor. (1 Tim. 2:5)
4. One example in which anyone from Heaven but God communicated with those on earth without both being personally present in the same realm.
5. One example in which earthly relations on earth have complete correspondence to those btwn created beings, in contrast to that not being the case.
6. Even one example of a common, necessary, fundamental doctrinal Christian practice for which the Holy Spirit does not provide even one single example, except by pagans in which it is condemned.
7. Even one example in which believers even sought the intercession of Mary on earth.
8. Even one example in which faithful believers kneel before other believers on earth in obeisance in sanctioned.
9. Why Catholics are exempt from the admonition not to think of mortals "above that which is written." (1Co. 4:6)
10. Even one example in which believers kneel before a statue and praise the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power and glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

Which manner of adulation would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

I think you missed Catastrophically the Book of Revelation:

Revelation 5:8

8 and when he disclosed it,[1] the four living figures and the twenty-four elders fell down in the Lamb’s presence. Each bore a harp, and they had golden bowls full of incense, the prayers of the saints.

Now, how did the Prayers of the Believers reached the bowls of the Elders in heaven???????

Albion · Sep 1, 2016

Alonso_Castillo said:
Hebrews 5:8-9

8 Son of God though he was, he learned obedience in the school of suffering,
9 and now, his full achievement reached, he wins eternal salvation for all those who render obedience to him.

It still means, if interpreted the way you want, that none of us can be saved, since all are sinners. Even the just man falls seven times a day, so he'd be lost too.

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