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But the bible refers to the life to come, it is not a dead zone as you indicate. For example the rich man, and Lazarus. When they died, they didn't just stay dead, they did stuff, and in different places.Indeed, most of our ideas about hell owe more to medieval imagination (e.g. Dante) than to the bible. The vast majority of biblical references to hell (in the KJV) refer to the Hebrew 'sheol' or the Greek 'hades' which were simply the places of the dead i.e. the grave. The old Anglo-Saxon 'hel' meant the same thing. It was practically identical to 'hades'.
I see. So Enoch walked with God, and left this physical existance, and...what? Was buried and in a dead state in some cloud???It is unlikely that the Hebrews thought of people in hell being conscious until they appropriated that idea from the Greeks.
Also, if we look at the new testament, we see Jesus on the mountain having a chat with two long dead people!
No, depends on where and how it is used. One pit mentioned was the bottomless pit, and that was no grave.The notion of 'hades' was much more detailed in Greek mythology than 'sheol' ever was. The KJV also translates 'sheol' as "grave" and "pit". So burial is a proper understanding of what Jesus meant.
Hey, God recycles, I guess.Interestingly, in the Gospels, the word most often translated into the English "hell" is neither 'sheol' nor 'hades' but 'gehenna' the name of Jerusalem's garbage dump.
People also confuse hell with Revelation's lake of fire. Hell (i.e. 'hades') does not have eternal existence. It is destroyed along with death in the lake of fire.
So, you posit that something in that lake is destroyed? The Antichrist was thrown in alive, does that mean he died? Does everyone who has a part in that worst of places die? Just a question.
So, ypu posit that something in that lake is destroyed? The Antichrist was thrown in alive, does that mean he died? Does everyone who has a part in that worst of places die? Just a question.
Depends on whether or not the anti-christ is an immortal being. Jesus says that everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels, who presumably are immortal and cannot die. Humans are not immortal, so I expect those humans cast into the lake of fire are destroyed.
Appearances of the dead do not count as so far, no one has been cast into the lake of fire. It only applies at the final judgment, after hell has given up all its dead.
Again, a demonstration of the difference between reading with grace or for the purposes of prosecution. Interest in the idea is not commitment to the idea. Read what was said again.
...
Frankly, I don't care greatly about how that verse is read, but it is evidence and it is interesting and it does appear to be a statement of cosmology. There should be enough grace available to read such views without ridicule.
Context for "heart of the earth"? This is a nonissue. There is no proof text to change the plain meaning. There is only a difference in philosophy about how to read that verse. When faced with that dilemma, it is a good time to take back the rhetoric a notch before you criticize someeone.
Well, the Antichrist was taken ALIVE, and cast in there.Depends on whether or not the anti-christ is an immortal being. Jesus says that everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels, who presumably are immortal and cannot die.
Re 19:20 - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. They stay there for, as I think it could be translated, ..
Rev 20:10 - and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
(Young's Literal Translation).
Well, I suspect there could be some there that eventually have to be. But for the most part, my opinion is that they just do their time, and learn some lessons. Have their part in it.Humans are not immortal, so I expect those humans cast into the lake of fire are destroyed.
Re 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Can't figure out what this refers to, like what dead, when, why, and doing what where?Appearances of the dead do not count as so far, no one has been cast into the lake of fire.
It only applies at the final judgment, after hell has given up all its dead.
"Verse 14. And death and hell were east into the lake of fire. Death and Hades (hell) are here personified, as they are in the previous verse. The declaration is equivalent to the statement in 1 Corinthians 15:26, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." See Barnes "1 Corinthians 15:26". The idea is, that death, considered as the separation of soul and body, with all the attendant woes, will exist no more. The righteous will live for ever, and the wicked will linger on in a state never to be terminated by death. The reign of Death and Hades, as such, would come to an end, and a new order of things would commence where this would be unknown."
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=20&verse=14#Re20_14
If this take on it were true, this would coincide with the end of the millenium, I think. That means the end of this temporary state of physical only as well. The time when a new heavens (universe) and earth appear. If so, it appears to be refering to the true state, complete state, eternal state of man, (and everything else) like before the fall of man, perhaps. We now have a body, and a spirit, which have to seperate when the body ceases to live. As the commentary says, "The idea is, that death, considered as the separation of soul and body"
So in other words, the seperation will no longer exist. We will be together, whole, or, merged, if you prefer.
But, even so, I don't see how the beings in the eternal state that do have to have a part in that lake would all die, or be destroyed.
I also do not personally believe that hell is forever. I also do not believe that the real stinkers in the lake will be there forever either! I think they will have their bit, or time, or age and and age in there.
The smoke from the lake, and fire in it will apparently be for real ever and ever. But not the people that were in it!
Can someone help me out here? I've reread this dity from dad about 5 times now and it still makes no more sense than the first time.Yes, It was there still at the time of Jesus. When did the old testament saints arise? After He arose, this moots your point. Try again.
You seem to assume that that paradise then was where paradise later was/is? I heard there was a paradise under the earth until back then? That is why the thief on the cross went to paradise, but also saw Jesus that day! In other words, UNDER the earth. We know Jesus went down there to preach to the spirits in prison. Looks like He stopped off in paradise first for a little visit. Then he preached to the souls in hell, also under the earth!Anyway, what the verse from Luke tells us is that Jesus went straight to be by the side of his father after he died on the cross. That day he was in paradise. Furthermore...
No, as I said He went to paradise first.Luke 23:46 - "Father into your hands I commit my spirit".
This verse clearly tells us that Jesus commited his spirit to his father. His spirit did not 'descend' into Hell.
So?? I don't remember anyone posting otherwise, and I don'r particularly see how it even relates.John 19:30 - "... Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."
The atonement was wrought on the cross, not in Hell.
He went to paradise on His way, but, of course He spent three days preaching to the spirits in prison down there! I hope you are not suggesting the folks up in heaven are in prison!!!!!! Absurd.When Jesus said "It is finished" he meant his work was over, then he went to be with his Father. He was not in Hell for three days.
Can't figure out what this refers to, like what dead, when, why, and doing what where?
So Enoch walked with God, and left this physical existance, and...what? Was buried and in a dead state in some cloud???
Also, if we look at the new testament, we see Jesus on the mountain having a chat with two long dead people!?
The tree of life that gave eternal life comes to mind. After all, it didn't suddenly appear only after they were kicked out of the garden in there. Can you suggest some reason to assume they would not have eaten, from all trees, especially that one?? 'Every tree may ye eat, except...' What was it there for, to show them what they couldn't have???? I mean the tree of life is also in New Jerusalem, why wouldn't we eat it??So you forget what you yourself said in the post I was responding to?
As for the rest of this post, you are depending a lot on Young's commentary i.e. an interpretation of the text. It's a fairly traditional interpretation, but I don't wholly agree with it. For example, I know of no reason to assume that human existence pre-fall was eternal.
Are you suggesting that, had not Adam and Eve eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have died???The tree of life that gave eternal life comes to mind. After all, it didn't suddenly appear only after they were kicked out of the garden in there. Can you suggest some reason to assume they would not have eaten, from all trees, especially that one?? 'Every tree may ye eat, except...' What was it there for, to show them what they couldn't have???? I mean the tree of life is also in New Jerusalem, why wouldn't we eat it??
I don't really know. My assumption was that in eating it, they were to live forever. I don't know that they had to keep eating it for maintaining eternal life. Almost like a light switch, they had already eaten it, and were going to live forever. The switch was up, or 'on'. Then, they ate the forbidden fruit, and the switc was turned off, and they started to die!Are you suggesting that, had not Adam and Eve eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have died???
Quite a bugger, that Tree of Life, eh?I don't really know. My assumption was that in eating it, they were to live forever. I don't know that they had to keep eating it for maintaining eternal life. Almost like a light switch, they had already eaten it, and were going to live forever. The switch was up, or 'on'. Then, they ate the forbidden fruit, and the switc was turned off, and they started to die!
Why would you assume anything different? If Hell is a spiritual place as you say, then it has no physical location, in the future it will do.You seem to assume that that paradise then was where paradise later was/is?
Interesting idea, where did you hear this?I heard there was a paradise under the earth until back then?
The thief was with Jesus, your idea means the thief must have been in Hell too.That is why the thief on the cross went to paradise, but also saw Jesus that day!
No. In other words the thief was in heaven with Jesus and with the Father.In other words, UNDER the earth.
What we know is that Jesus did not descend into Hell for three days after the resurrection. Whenever he preached to the spirits in prison (whatever that really means no one can be sure) it wasn't at this time.We know Jesus went down there to preach to the spirits in prison.
No it doesn't look anything like that.Looks like He stopped off in paradise first for a little visit. Then he preached to the souls in hell, also under the earth!
He did go to paradise first, he went to be with the Father. The Father is in Heaven, not in Hell.No, as I said He went to paradise first.
The relevance is he had no need to go to Hell. The relevance is his spirit went to be with his Father. The relevance is the Father is in Heaven not Hell.So?? I don't remember anyone posting otherwise, and I don't particularly see how it even relates.
Again, this is wrong. Aren't there any other YECs who see how wrong this is?He went to paradise on His way, but, of course He spent three days preaching to the spirits in prison down there!
To suggest such a thing would indeed be absurd, phew! Glad I hadn't.I hope you are not suggesting the folks up in heaven are in prison!!!!!! Absurd.
Are you suggesting that, had not Adam and Eve eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have died???
We don't need to eat in heaven, and Adam may not have needed to eat in Eden. So, why eat? Simple, we feel like it, things are neat, things are tasty.Quite a bugger, that Tree of Life, eh?
If Adam was created perfect and eternal, then he didn't need to eat of it.
And once Adam fell into sin, he wasn't allowed to eat of it.
What good was the Tree of Life, then?
Why would you assume anything different?
Simple, Jesus went down to paradise. He later went up, and prepared a new one. He went, He said TO prepare a place for us. When the OT saints arose from the dead, do you think they were in hell down there, or paradise? If paradise, then we know it is now UP, not down. Jesus ascended into heaven.
But it may be housed in a physical and spiritual place, like we know heaven is both! So, it does have a specific location, but not in the present physical only state we know, and think of. If the outer core was spiritual, and physical, or merged, as the OP proposes, then it has a merged location, that is also physical, but not just physical. It is very real.If Hell is a spiritual place as you say, then it has no physical location, in the future it will do.
A little bird told me. Ha. Actually, it was a friend that is dead now.Interesting idea, where did you hear this?
No, one of them went to paradise. ' This day, shalt thou be with me in paradise' Jesus said on the cross, if we remember. Jesus went into the heart of the earth to preach to the spirits in prison (hell), and stopped by Paradise, for a visit on the way, and maybe on the way back as well, for all we know.The thief was with Jesus, your idea means the thief must have been in Hell too.
He may be there now, but if He saw Jesus that day He was down below us somewhere at the time.No. In other words the thief was in heaven with Jesus and with the Father.
You think we know that do you? Strange.What we know is that Jesus did not descend into Hell for three days after the resurrection. Whenever he preached to the spirits in prison (whatever that really means no one can be sure) it wasn't at this time.
No it doesn't look anything like that.
Prove it.He did go to paradise first, he went to be with the Father. The Father is in Heaven, not in Hell.
Are you suggesting the Sceptre could not have parked in paradise for a bit??? (The flying wheels, and mobile throne of God spoken of in Ezekiel 1)The relevance is he had no need to go to Hell. The relevance is his spirit went to be with his Father. The relevance is the Father is in Heaven not Hell.
Why not just out and make your case? I can handle it, don't worry a bit.Again, this is wrong. Aren't there any other YECs who see how wrong this is?
So, where did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison then for three days??To suggest such a thing would indeed be absurd, phew! Glad I hadn't.
No more than usual!Anyway I leave for a skiing holiday in 5 hours so I likely wont see any reply of yours. I doubt I'll be missing much.
What is the scriptural reference for saying that Christ went down to Hell after he was crucified?
Right, the dead went somewhere. The good ones to paradise, the bad ones to prison. I never said it was an Abu Grabe! Hell has different levels, as does heaven. We go somewhere, apparently. Look at Lazarus and the rich man, they died, and didn't just lie there, they did things, ate, drank, talked, whatever. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, and also went to paradise down there.Why do people use the term Hades to reference a Christian Hell or purgatory. In my experience, that term refers exclusively to the Greek concept of the afterlife. And Hades itself was not a place of punishment really, just a place where the dead went.
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