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Early practice of "baptizing" pagan traditions

cloudyday2

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The early Christians "baptized" pagan traditions to facilitate conversions.
  • Some Christian saints were apparently pagan gods.
  • The Marian devotion apparently sprang-up in Ephesus as a "baptism" of the goddess Artemis and propagated to other regions like Arabia where similar fertility goddesses were popular.
  • Some quotations and miracles associated with Jesus in the gospels apparently originated from earlier figures in Judaism or Hellenism.
  • The Christmas traditions (tree, date, etc.) are another popular example of this.
Regardless of whether you agree with every example that I gave above, most will surely agree that some of these "baptisms" occurred, and they were apparently endorsed by early Christian leaders.

My question is: what does this suggest about the early Christian leadership? These "baptisms" apparently happened within a few generations of the crucifixion. How could a sincere church leader endorse the idea of polluting the historical facts with myths? How could anybody who valued truth go along with this?

To me this suggests that the early Christian leaders did not actually care about the history - almost as if they knew that the historical narrative of the gospels was mostly allegory. IDK
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The early Christians "baptized" pagan traditions to facilitate conversions.
  • Some Christian saints were apparently pagan gods.
  • The Marian devotion apparently sprang-up in Ephesus as a "baptism" of the goddess Artemis and propagated to other regions like Arabia where similar fertility goddesses were popular.
  • Some quotations and miracles associated with Jesus in the gospels apparently originated from earlier figures in Judaism or Hellenism.
  • The Christmas traditions (tree, date, etc.) are another popular example of this.
Regardless of whether you agree with every example that I gave above, most will surely agree that some of these "baptisms" occurred, and they were apparently endorsed by early Christian leaders.

My question is: what does this suggest about the early Christian leadership? These "baptisms" apparently happened within a few generations of the crucifixion. How could a sincere church leader endorse the idea of polluting the historical facts with myths? How could anybody who valued truth go along with this?

"Early" Christians baptized pagan traditions? How early are we talking about? Are we talking "Peter and Paul" early?

[...and yes, these are rhetorical questions.] :cool:
 
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Danthemailman

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Maybe that explains why Greek scholar AT Robertson said this in his commentary on Galatians 3:27 in regards to baptism - "He does not here mean that one enters into Christ and so is saved by means of baptism after the teaching of the mystery religions, but just the opposite."
 
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dlamberth

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My question is: what does this suggest about the early Christian leadership?
For myself what it points towards is that there is no religion that has not been influenced by other religions. And that even in Christianity there is no purity of content.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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For myself what it points towards the there is no religion that has not been influenced by other religions. And that even in Christianity there is no purity of content.

There are certainly elements of the Christian religion that have basis in other pagan religions. But the true faith is based only in Yeshua and in him alone.
 
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Danthemailman

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There are certainly elements of the Christian religion that have basis in other pagan religions. But the true faith is based only in Yeshua and in him alone.
I wonder if these pagan religions is what Greek scholar AT Robertson had in mind when he referred to "mystery religions" in his commentary.
 
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cloudyday2

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Maybe that explains why Greek scholar AT Robertson said this in his commentary on Galatians 3:27 in regards to baptism - "He does not here mean that one enters into Christ and so is saved by means of baptism after the teaching of the mystery religions, but just the opposite."
I'm not familiar with AT Robertson, but he clearly was aware of the mystery religions of that time such as Mithris and Isis.
 
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Chesterton

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The early Christians "baptized" pagan traditions to facilitate conversions.
  • Some Christian saints were apparently pagan gods.
  • The Marian devotion apparently sprang-up in Ephesus as a "baptism" of the goddess Artemis and propagated to other regions like Arabia where similar fertility goddesses were popular.
  • Some quotations and miracles associated with Jesus in the gospels apparently originated from earlier figures in Judaism or Hellenism.
  • The Christmas traditions (tree, date, etc.) are another popular example of this.
Regardless of whether you agree with every example that I gave above, most will surely agree that some of these "baptisms" occurred, and they were apparently endorsed by early Christian leaders.

My question is: what does this suggest about the early Christian leadership? These "baptisms" apparently happened within a few generations of the crucifixion. How could a sincere church leader endorse the idea of polluting the historical facts with myths? How could anybody who valued truth go along with this?

To me this suggests that the early Christian leaders did not actually care about the history - almost as if they knew that the historical narrative of the gospels was mostly allegory. IDK
No they weren't baptized, they were Christianized, and you apparently don't know what that means. Instead of reading books about Christianity by secularists and Jews, why don't you read a book about Christianity by a Christian?
 
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cloudyday2

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I have no idea what you are talking about
One of the discoveries in the Nag Hammadi library was a partially completed "Sophia of Jesus Christ" ( The Sophia of Jesus Christ - Wikipedia ) where Jesus was made to speak the words from the philosophical "Epistle of Eugnostos". That is the kind of disregard for historical reality that I mean.

Some might say, "well these were those heretic Gnostics", but we can also look at the Nativity stories in Matthew and Luke as an earlier example. Maybe the authors of Matthew and Luke were merely recording oral traditions about the Nativity in their community, but at some point there was a Christian who invented these Nativity stories. (I know that some Christians believe the Nativity stories are historically accurate, so I'm sure they would not see them as an example of "baptizing" myths into Christianity. That is fine.)
 
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cloudyday2

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No they weren't baptized, they were Christianized, and you apparently don't know what that means. Instead of reading books about Christianity by secularists and Jews, why don't you read a book about Christianity by a Christian?
O.k. how do you distinguish "baptized" from "Christianized"? Baptism was apparently a Jewish tradition where items were ritually purified with water for some holy use (such as the Temple).
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The early Christians "baptized" pagan traditions to facilitate conversions.
  • Some Christian saints were apparently pagan gods.
  • The Marian devotion apparently sprang-up in Ephesus as a "baptism" of the goddess Artemis and propagated to other regions like Arabia where similar fertility goddesses were popular.
  • Some quotations and miracles associated with Jesus in the gospels apparently originated from earlier figures in Judaism or Hellenism.
  • The Christmas traditions (tree, date, etc.) are another popular example of this.
Regardless of whether you agree with every example that I gave above, most will surely agree that some of these "baptisms" occurred, and they were apparently endorsed by early Christian leaders.

My question is: what does this suggest about the early Christian leadership? These "baptisms" apparently happened within a few generations of the crucifixion. How could a sincere church leader endorse the idea of polluting the historical facts with myths? How could anybody who valued truth go along with this?

To me this suggests that the early Christian leaders did not actually care about the history - almost as if they knew that the historical narrative of the gospels was mostly allegory. IDK

Before sharing further, my main question would be where your sources were for the stances you were taking - and how long this has been on your mind. I don't have a problem giving further research/thoughts on the issue for cross-examination, but knowing more on the background can help.
 
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cloudyday2

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For myself what it points towards is that there is no religion that has not been influenced by other religions. And that even in Christianity there is no purity of content.
The apparent willingness of early Christians to mix myth into the gospel narrative only makes sense if the Christians were unscrupulous, money-grubbing charlatans (like the modern day televangelists) ... or most of the Christians knew that the narratives already included myths - that these myths were a way of recording spiritual truths that the community of Christians had discovered. This second option is consistent with the Enochian/Essene origin of Christianity, because the Essenes were known to interpret scripture very allegorically.
 
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cloudyday2

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Before sharing further, my main question would be where your sources were for the stances you were taking - and how long this has been on your mind. I don't have a problem giving further research/thoughts on the issue for cross-examination, but knowing more on the background can help.
Many of my sources are websites (primarily Wikipedia). I've been aware of this "baptizing" of pagan practices for several years, but it has only recently dawned on me that this has implications about the beliefs of the early Christians who endorsed the practice. Speaking for myself, I want to believe that a historical narrative is the author's best understanding for what actually transpired in the real world. Apparently ancient histories were a little bit different, because there was an expectation that the history should also contain a moral/ethical teaching and be a little bit more artful in form than modern histories. I don't know if even ancient historians would have endorsed mixing myths and histories so that real events could no longer be determined.

This idea began to form a few weeks ago and became more well-formed last night after a discussion.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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You must remember that the modern notion of History is not the ancient one. Ancient historians were expected to tell the tale of their ancestors, not be completely bound by verisimilitude.
A good example is Tacitus, who wrote on the Germanic tribes to juxtapose their liberty to Roman torpor, or Polybius who wrote on Rome as a way to encourage the Greeks to emulate their practices, which he considered to be based on virtue.
It was standard practice to invent speeches, make references to events and basically write around a theme or a purpose. Livy wrote to support the return to earlier Romanitas, not to give a factual account. Tacitus took the dry factual accounts, the Annals of Rome, and rewrote it into a History, the Annals as we know them today, a literary work in fact. We see this same Hellenistic structure clearly mirrored in both Luke and Acts.

The idea represented, the point of the work, is more important than whether it represents what factually occurred. This is the misunderstanding of the modern world. Owen Barfield wrote on this, the Ancient Unities of concepts. To the ancients, whether something is just an account of something, does not make it more 'real' or correct. The gist or spirit should be the same. So when Calgacus makes a speech to his troops, it doesn't matter if he did not say the exact words, but the spirit thereof should be similar, should sketch or help the reader experience the event. After all, if we look at the intellectual traditions of Hellenistic times, they were very much interested in Forms, Ideas, abstract expression and sceptical of our abilities to represent reality otherwise. This is clearly mirrored in their historical works. The early Church works from this tradition, as Stephen's speech in Acts makes clear. This is not 'wrong' per se, but can perhaps be thought of how we would make a historical fiction today, a retelling of a true story. The exact details are hardly the point here, in fact they are beside the point.

So to Christianising previous ideas, these were mostly via symbol. To take an example, think of the Statue of Liberty. This is the Roman goddess Liberty standing on chains, but to the French who built her, she did not represent the goddess, but an abstract conception of Liberty and abolition of slavery, expressed via the culturally appropriate symbolism of a goddess. In the US, this came to be reinterpreted first into the 'melting pot' idea of immigrants and then into a general symbol of Americaness. Nowhere did the Roman goddess come into play here at all, it was entirely a secular symbol for secular ideas, expressed thereby.
Likewise, Christians expressed Christian ideas via Pagan symbolism, as this was the culturally appropriate symbols of their time. So we see that the idea of Jesus as the Ultimate God, is expressed by the solar quadriga, but this does not show Jesus as a sun god, but borrows from pagan conceptions to express it. Or we see Saints with accoutrements of pagan gods or the Virgin Mary represented as an ideal of motherhood by the semiotics used to represent it in that time. Why is this strange? If a cartoon in the newspaper presents a political figure as Jesus, we understand what is meant, not that that figure is suddenly declared to be a god, nor that Christianity somehow became absorbed into his representation by it.
How do you convert people to your ideals? You make them understand it, you present it in a way that they understand, you use their known symbols and language forms. To expect Christianity to completely ignore the prevailing culture of the period is frankly ridiculous. It is for this same reason why Robespierre created a 'Goddess of Reason' cult, or Marxism is expressed in terms of dialectic: You first use what people know to express the new, to make them understand the basics, and then build from there.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The apparent willingness of early Christians to mix myth into the gospel narrative only makes sense if the Christians were unscrupulous, money-grubbing charlatans (like the modern day televangelists) ... or most of the Christians knew that the narratives already included myths - that these myths were a way of recording spiritual truths that the community of Christians had discovered. This second option is consistent with the Enochian/Essene origin of Christianity, because the Essenes were known to interpret scripture very allegorically.
It does not at all follow thusly. For 'myth' is a modern idea. The word Myth is derived from Mythos, meaning a story or tale told by mouth. It had no connotation of being true or fictional in the past, so we see people like Livy writing at one point of Mucius Scaevola before Lars Porsena saving Rome, but later in the same work contradicting it, by intimating that Porsena did take Rome. To think a narrative can be expressed as 'True' vs 'Fiction' is very much a later idea, for it can be argued that to Hellenistic thinkers the act of retelling something would already be a corruption of its actuality, the Idea represented by the vague story expressed thereby. It is the platonic idea of Methexis. A truth expressed, but the expression thereof is not the truth itself. There was an ancient semantic unity we no longer understand, as Owen Barfield clearly pointed out, and can be seen expressed in the ancient texts. You cannot read ancient texts like a modern nominalist, instead you need to read it before the rise of empiricism or Aristotlean logic as we understand it today. Philosophers understood it perhaps in such manner, but the common man hardly would have. Why do you think that so much time was spent on Homer and Virgil by the ancients, as if these concocted tales meant as much as anything else, when they were well aware of contradictions? Why Zeus could have been born in Crete, Olympus, Thebes etc. even in the same tradition? Why Orphics could call on each god as the Supreme god in turn, without conceiving them as being aspects of one god? The Ancient Egyptians could see the sun as the barge of Ra, the scarab Khepri, being swallowed and birthed by Hathor, etc. without anyone of these being less real than any other or more fictional either.

Anyway, early Christians and mediaevalists could interpret Scripture in four ways concurrently: Anagogically, Literally, Tropologically, or Typologically. Neither of these impacted the veracity of any other mode of interpretation thereby. By modern standards, 3 of these are highly allegorical. To think allegory precludes other understandings is flawed.
 
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Many of my sources are websites (primarily Wikipedia). I've been aware of this "baptizing" of pagan practices for several years, but it has only recently dawned on me that this has implications about the beliefs of the early Christians who endorsed the practice. Speaking for myself, I want to believe that a historical narrative is the author's best understanding for what actually transpired in the real world. Apparently ancient histories were a little bit different, because there was an expectation that the history should also contain a moral/ethical teaching and be a little bit more artful in form than modern histories. I don't know if even ancient historians would have endorsed mixing myths and histories so that real events could no longer be determined.

This idea began to form a few weeks ago and became more well-formed last night after a discussion.
I understand the aspect of what you were saying with why you feel as you do. However, to be more specific:

  • What specific websites (from Wikipedia) did you study to make your conclusions? Which books? You said many of your sources were from Wikipedia, but in order for someone to make a complete review of something, they have to have a full scope of what the actual text is that you were reading to come to your conclusions since they are rather far-reaching.
And to be clear, as Wikipedia is not a primary source for historical review, it makes a difference with where you research.
 
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cloudyday2

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I understand the aspect of what you were saying with why you feel as you do. However, to be more specific:

  • What specific websites (from Wikipedia) did you study to make your conclusions? Which books? You said many of your sources were from Wikipedia, but in order for someone to make a complete review of something, they have to have a full scope of what the actual text is that you were reading to come to your conclusions since they are rather far-reaching.
And to be clear, as Wikipedia is not a primary source for historical review, it makes a difference with where you research.
Unfortunately, I can't remember the specific sources. Typically I sit down at my computer and read one web page. That web page mentions something that I google and read about. Etc. I've been very interested in Christianity since 2009 when I briefly regained my faith in Christianity. I try to be selective and skeptical about what I read on the internet, because I don't want to fill my brain with nonsense. But I don't have a box full of index cards to reconstruct where I got my ideas.

I have read a few books on early Christianity and early Judaism, but I think most of my ideas on this topic came from web pages.

EDIT: A couple of recent books that I've found informative on the Essene/Enochian origins of Christianity are these. But these books do not touch on the mythologizing of the gospel narratives. Probably some of the Bart Ehrman books I have read go more in that direction.
Beyond the Essene Hypothesis
The Jewish Gospels
 
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My question is: what does this suggest about the early Christian leadership? These "baptisms" apparently happened within a few generations of the crucifixion. How could a sincere church leader endorse the idea of polluting the historical facts with myths? How could anybody who valued truth go along with this?
< shrgus > It is written, before the Apostles died/slept : "there are (already, now) many antichrists AMONG US" and "the wolves are watching, ready to tear the flock apart as soon as we pass on" .....
and so it happened, just as written.

YHWH kept for Himself true believers, born again ones, set apart by YHWH, for Himself, from every people, from every nation,
few, but true.

To me this suggests that the early Christian leaders did not actually care about the history - almost as if they knew that the historical narrative of the gospels was mostly allegory. IDK
YHWH doesn't say the TRUTH of His Word is anything but TRUTH.

A lot of early everybody (people everywhere) did not ever care about the TRUTH/ history/ anything but devastation and destruction and death-dealing. So ? That's still truth today.
 
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