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Early practice of "baptizing" pagan traditions

Quid est Veritas?

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Would Roman priestesses have had the same sort of social capital and obligations that priests did? I'm wondering if the Vestal Virgins or various pagan prophetesses would have been the equivalent of Christian priests and bishops, or if the better comparison would be to female Christian virgins and mystics. Obviously there are any number of highly respected female saints in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, so I'm wondering if exclusion from the priesthood has more to do with its public nature.
The second highest religious office in Rome, after the Pontifex Maximus, was the Vestalium Maxima, or chief of the Vestals.
The Vestals usually held the wills of important men, and they were known to intercede in public affairs. A young Julius Caesar's life was spared by the dictator Sulla, due to intervention on his behalf by the Vestalius Maxima. Having the Vestals on your side was worth serious political capital.
They served for 30 years and thereafter were given a generous stipend and became much sought after brides. Often Vestals merely remained in service their whole lives, especcially if you planned on becoming the Vestalium Maxima. They had all kinds of rights, like getting pride of place at festivals or being able to free condemned slaves, but conversely, the punishment for failure to keep their vow of chastity was horrific - being buried alive.

This was the premiere female priesthood though. Others like the Bona Dea, was more on a part-time basis.

Roman priests aren't really the equivalent of the Christian variety, though. Priesthoods like the Arval brethren were often highly political and there was little separation between the sacred and profane in this aspect. The idea of someone dedicating himself solely to religion, outside of specific priesthoods like the Vestals or Rex Nemorensis, would be very foreign to Roman eyes. I would say, at least where the Vestals are concerned, that they were certainly on the equivalent level of bishops in Roman religion.
 
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cloudyday2

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The Romans had many and respected priestesses, like the Vestal Virgins, so I doubt the exclusion of women from the priesthood is Roman.
What I read somewhere is that the early Christian attitude that Jesus would be coming back to Earth in their lifetimes created freedom for women. Normally the priority was to raise children who could continue the family, but this was no longer important. Women were free to work for the gospel instead. This disregard for traditional family values may have contributed to the hostility many felt towards Christians. As it became obvious that Jesus was not coming as soon as expected then the role of women in Christianity probably returned to normal.

I assume the prohibition of women from the Christian priesthood was a mirror of the prohibition of women from the Jewish priesthood? A Christian priest and a Jewish priest are not exactly the same, but the altar area is patterned after the Jewish Temple. The book of Hebrews makes Jesus the High Priest and He was a male. IDK
 
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FreeinChrist

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This thread was moved to Christian Apologetics which fits the topic much better. Let an admin know if you have trouble posting in this thread. Or you can start a ticket in Contact Us.

 
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Silmarien

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What I read somewhere is that the early Christian attitude that Jesus would be coming back to Earth in their lifetimes created freedom for women. Normally the priority was to raise children who could continue the family, but this was no longer important. Women were free to work for the gospel instead. This disregard for traditional family values may have contributed to the hostility many felt towards Christians. As it became obvious that Jesus was not coming as soon as expected then the role of women in Christianity probably returned to normal.

I don't think that works, because traditional family values did not return to normal. Celibacy was valued more highly than marriage, and it was perfectly acceptable--and in fact celebrated--for a woman to remain unwed and dedicate herself to Christ instead as a virgin.

Here's an interesting article on ordained women in the Patristic period: Ordained Women of the Patristic Era
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I don't think that works, because traditional family values did not return to normal. Celibacy was valued more highly than marriage, and it was perfectly acceptable--and in fact celebrated--for a woman to remain unwed and dedicate herself to Christ instead as a virgin.

Here's an interesting article on ordained women in the Patristic period: Ordained Women of the Patristic Era

In the article you cite, the little bit at the tail end is most endearing to me...... :rolleyes:

Some Observations
In discussing women’s ordination, many are content to cite the handfuls of passages where early churchmen simply quote New Testament passages that seem to restrict women. The issue of whether they are interpreting these passages correctly, or of whether they might possess some modicum of bias, is nowhere raised.​

Ah, the wonderful world of hermeneutics!

2PhiloVoid
 
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cloudyday2

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I don't think that works, because traditional family values did not return to normal. Celibacy was valued more highly than marriage, and it was perfectly acceptable--and in fact celebrated--for a woman to remain unwed and dedicate herself to Christ instead as a virgin.

Here's an interesting article on ordained women in the Patristic period: Ordained Women of the Patristic Era
Something I find interesting is this quote from the above link written by Atto of Vercelli:
One understands this because then not only men, but also women were in charge of the Churches, to be sure for the sake of great efficiency. For women, long accustomed to the rites of pagans, instructed as well in philosophical doctrines, were converted more readily for these reasons, and were more easily instructed thoroughly in the worship of religion.

Atto seems to be saying that women had a superior education to men in philosophical doctrines? That surprises me, so I wonder if I am misunderstanding Atto?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Something I find interesting is this quote from the above link written by Atto of Vercelli:


Atto seems to be saying that women had a superior education to men in philosophical doctrines? That surprises me, so I wonder if I am misunderstanding Atto?
He says 'as well', not superior. We are aware of a number of female writers from Roman times such as Sulpicia the poet, Fabulla who wrote on Medicine and was quoted by Galen, Hypatia the philosopher, etc. We see people like Perpetua, who left a possible eyewitness account of the period up to her martyrdom, who were highly educated women and converts to Christianity.
The upper classes in Rome educated their girls, so that we see them appreciate poetry and such, hence letches like Ovid could take advantage thereof.
Upper class women had more free time though, so I assume they could spend more time learning the doctrines and beliefs of their new faith, and their education allowed them to quickly grasp it.

It is interesting though. It is commonly said that Christianity was more popular amongst women and slaves.
 
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Zoness

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It is interesting though. It is commonly said that Christianity was more popular amongst women and slaves.

I wonder why this is, if Rome especially was kinder to women than other societies. I can see why for slaves, since it would have religious doctrine that was equalizing for them. But women have a downgraded status in the ecclesiastical structure of the early church. There were many pagan priestesses and the Vestal Virgins as you say but obviously there would have been meltdowns if there were woman priests or bishops in Christianity.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I wonder why this is, if Rome especially was kinder to women than other societies. I can see why for slaves, since it would have religious doctrine that was equalizing for them. But women have a downgraded status in the ecclesiastical structure of the early church. There were many pagan priestesses and the Vestal Virgins as you say but obviously there would have been meltdowns if there were woman priests or bishops in Christianity.
What you should remember, is that Rome didn't force her views onto her subject people. All that Rome cared about was that you kept order and paid your taxes. While Roman Law applied to Roman Citizens or Latin-Rights communities, the original laws and practices were still followed elsewhere. Hence the Jews could stone someone for blasphemy, Greeks kept their women sequestered, etc. Obviously Rome would intervene if there was a conflict between the native and Roman Law, such as when Paul called upon the Emperor and was promptly taken first to the governor and then to Rome. Now and then Rome would end native practices, like Gaulish human sacrifice, or order things opposed to them, such as when Hadrian tried to acculturate the Jews into Hellenists, by rebuilding Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolana (the latter in a mistaken attempt to pacify and hopefully break Jewish exceptionalism, but precipitating another Jewish revolt).

So the spread of Christianity amongst women in the Greek communities or Semitic ones, is not really too different from amongst slaves - They were very much subservient to their men. Romans themselves treated their women better than most contemporaneous peoples, but this does not mean the sexes were seen as equals. Women were still seen as less than men, in a way, although Rome had a strong tradition of celebrating their Matrons, who was sort of a stock figure of true Romanitas or Romaness. I'd say 'different roles' perhaps, but in our modern world even this euphemistic expression of the concept is seen as offensive.

I've seen it argued that Christianity allows a new identity, outside of the role as mother or wife, for even religious roles were bound thereby traditionally (Vestals dressed in a mix of Roman bridal attire and those of a staunch Matron). It allowed all people to be seen as merely souls before God. In a sense, one could argue that Spiritual achievement somehow allowed exercise of leadership, beyond their traditional role, as in the Montanists. We see Christianity allow direct access to God, without all the other accoutrements that usually went along with this, like sacrifices and such, regardless of gender. It was also a radical religious departure, as Roman religion was often framed in a contractual sense, of if I do this, the gods will do that.

The other mystery religions weren't very welcoming to women either, for Mithraism completely excluded them, and groups like the Manichees or Jupiter Dolicenus tended to stress their lesser status far more than Christianity originally did. We see prominent women in the NT, Pliny writes of two deaconesses that he tried in Bithynia, and as late as the 5th century there were still local synods that sent out decrees that women should not be deacons or handle the Eucharist in Gaul and Hispania - meaning that there were communities where they did so.
So while Christianity came to be less 'women-friendly' from aspects of hierarchy later, this was most definitely not the case initially in much of the Gentile world (not too sure of the Jewish Christians, who I assume imported their traditional clear subservience). It is probably related to Christianity becoming the state religion of Rome, but again this is just a supposition. After all, Helena, Constantine's mother, played a leading role initially in the conversion process according to Church accounts, and definitely was an influential figure in her son's reign.
 
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cloudyday2

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Now and then Rome would end native practices, like Gaulish human sacrifice, or order things opposed to them, such as when Hadrian tried to acculturate the Jews into Hellenists, by rebuilding Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolana (the latter in a mistaken attempt to pacify and hopefully break Jewish exceptionalism, but precipitating another Jewish revolt).
It's hard to believe that the Roman's didn't realize how much that would upset the Jews. Wasn't part of the plan to construct a temple to Jupiter in place of the Jewish temple? To me it sounds more like a way of telling the Jews that they had lost any cultural privileges they had previously enjoyed (due to their seditious behavior in the first revolt).
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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It's hard to believe that the Roman's didn't realize how much that would upset the Jews. Wasn't part of the plan to construct a temple to Jupiter in place of the Jewish temple? To me it sounds more like a way of telling the Jews that they had lost any cultural privileges they had previously enjoyed (due to their seditious behavior in the first revolt).
Hadrian's plan was to recreate Jerusalem into a Roman Municipium. A big part of this was the construction of a large new Temple to Jupiter Capitolinus. The hope was that the Jews would come to accept their God as a syncretic form of Jupiter, and that they would then acculturate.

Hadrian spent years touring the Empire, inspecting each province and trying to shore up borders and sort out local problems. This is why he had Hadrian's Wall built in Britain, set out Agri Decumates in Germany or spent so much time with petty disputes. On arrival in Judaea, he met with the Jewish leaders and discussed the problem with previous Roman governors. Judaea was a specific problem, for the Jews had recently revolted again during Trajan's Parthian Wars. It seems as if originally he was planning to rebuild it as a Jewish city, in fact Jews thought he would rebuild the Temple, but with a mix of Roman amenities and perhaps additional Roman temples, but then it became clear that his rebuilt Temple was to be for a syncretic deity. When Tineius Rufus then ploughed the symbolic city limits, it went right through Temple Mount, and this sacrilege precipitated the Revolt.

Hadrian badly miscalculated and spent three years mopping up a bloody and determined revolt. Thereafter, all gloves were off. The province was renamed Palaestina, the Fiscus Judaicus or Jewish Tax increased, the city renamed Aelia Capitolana and all Jews forbidden from its city limits. He was planning to make peace, to secure the province, as he had done elsewhere in the Empire, but ended up with a war on his hands. After the fact, it seems that his attitude changed to "to hell with it", and hence his punitive measures and subsequent anti-Jewish policies that were adopted.
There is also a tradition of Hadrian planning to ban circumcision, but this is an unreliable and late tradition, but might have fitted his programme of attempted Hellenisation of the Jews. He did ban the Torah in Palestine, having it publically burned, though. The idea being that if the carrot fails, then the stick will have to do. His initial plan of acculturation and syncretism of YHWH and Jupiter did not superficially seem such a bad plan, after all it worked quite well in other parts of the Empire with other gods. It had been done as part of Hadrian's tour to secure the Empire, and the Romans were unprepared for the revolt or its ferocity, so to think that Hadrian set out to aggravate the Jews does not seem correct, nor fit his character as presented by Cassius Dio.
 
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cloudyday2

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It seems as if originally he was planning to rebuild it as a Jewish city, in fact Jews thought he would rebuild the Temple, but with a mix of Roman amenities and perhaps additional Roman temples, but then it became clear that his rebuilt Temple was to be for a syncretic deity. When Tineius Rufus then ploughed the symbolic city limits, it went right through Temple Mount, and this sacrilege precipitated the Revolt.
It's hard for me to imagine that somebody in authority didn't realize that Jews would be upset if they treated the Temple Mount disrespectfully (by planning to run the city wall through it if I understand correctly?). How could the architects not realize this?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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It's hard for me to imagine that somebody in authority didn't realize that Jews would be upset if they treated the Temple Mount disrespectfully (by planning to run the city wall through it if I understand correctly?). How could the architects not realize this?
No, not the city wall, the Pomerium. This was the legal and religious boundary of the city; the same thing that Remus is said to have disrespected, resulting in Romulus' murdering him.
To run the Pomerium over Temple Mount would have left a piece of high ground outside the boundaries of the city. It was likely planned that the Legion fortress would have been built there, thus pandering to Jewish sensibilities to not quarter soldiers within the city itself, a common problem Rome previously experienced here, as per Josephus.

Hadrian only reinforced Legio X Fretensis with one cohort, so about 480 men. Hadrian was a shrewd Emperor and tended to meticulous planning, and his whole reign was dedicated to streamlining and reining in Roman overstretch. He clearly expected some disorder, but not a revolt, otherwise he himself would have tarried longer in the area and would have sent more legionaries than he did.

One must remember not to look on the 2nd century with modern eyes. The Jews were a ridiculous backwater people to the Romans, not an important and well-known tradition like today. Syncretism worked well with Zeus, Ammon, Bel, Marduk, etc., so they could be excused for thinking the Jews also amenable to this strategy. They probably should have known better, as they had the example of the Maccabees before them, but again it wasn't well known.

Think of it like the US invasion of Afghanistan. In spite of British failures in the Afghan wars in the 19th and the Russian ulcer there in the 20th, the US still went in with a similar strategy and got mired in. How many people were even aware of minutiae of Afghan history from 200 years ago? Yet these same mistakes were made, by people who had studied the question and what should have been done there, before hand. The simple reason was that distant wars or peoples that appear peripheral to our own historic views , often get sidelined and improperly understood. The Jews are to the Romans, as a minor African tribe is to the British Empire in the 19th, or the Pashtuns are to the US.

Like the US is trying to instill Western values such as liberty for women or free elections in Afghanistan, Rome was trying to instill Hellenistic values of religious syncretism into Judaea. In hindsight, that they failed is not unexpected, but just as we are perhaps overly optimistic in modern Afghanistan...
 
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