Early ECFs and Queen/Babylon in Revelation

[LittleLambofJesus]

Since the GT Board is closed I decided to bring this particular thread over to here and I would like to ask how the early ECFs view that mysterious "Queen/harlot" in Revelation. Could someone point me to some of the places to where the ECFs had written about this? Thanks.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5617198&page=2
She who sits as queen, not widow, never mourns

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus So you don't associate the Olivet Discourse/Jerusalem with Revelation

Luke 19:43 That shall be arriving days upon thee, and thy Enemies shall be casting up a rampart to thee, and shall be encompassing thee, and pressing thee every which place. 44 And shall be leveling thee and thy offspring in thee, and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee, instead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation".

John 11:48 "If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
And shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation

Reve 6:6 And I hear as a-sound in midst of the four living-ones, saying: "choinex of grain of Denarius and three choinex of barleys of Denarius and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

I don't. Could you explain it?

Peace

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus You have your understanding, I have mine and everyone else has theirs. The Catholics say it was pagan Rome and if that is their view, fine. I will stick with mine

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anyone? I saw this interesting discussion on the canonization of that Divine book:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-223313.html

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=223313
Full version

In the western church, Revelation was considered canonical from the fourth century on. But eastern writers often rejected it, around the end of the fourth century. Later on, it became part of the eastern canon, too - but when did this happen? According to this site (http://www.ntcanon.org/Sixty_Canonical_Books.shtml), the Catalogue of the Sixty Canonical Books (7th century)
reflects the view, widely held in the Greek Church at a later time, of the canon of 60 books (34 OT and 26 NT). There are only 26 NT books because the Revelation of John is missing.

So it seems to have been later than the 7th century, anyway. Was there ever an official declaration of the canon by the eastern church?

If you mean the Church of the East (http://www.nestorian.org/), it never became part of their canon.
Their canon always has and still does exclude 2 Peter, Jude, 2 & 3 John and Revelation.

Bear in mind this church has never come into communion with the RCC, they did not participate in the "official" early church councils, but rather had their own councils.


They signed an agreement in 1994 with Pope John Paul II which restored communion between the RCC and the main Nestorian body. They recognise the councils up to Ephesus (433) at which Nestorius was condemned, under very dubious circumstances. Their disagreement was more with the Monophysites than with Rome, which after all held the Chalcedonian formula. Indeed the "Bazaar of Heracleides" which they preserved reveals that even Nestorius did not hold 'Nestorian' views.

The Nestorians have been nearly wiped out during the 20th century, starting with the massacres in 1915 by the Turks. Their main stronghold was in the mountains of northern Iraq, and the moslem Kurds have always been their main enemies.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 

[WarriorAngel]

CHURCH FATHERS: Commentary on the Apocalypse (Victorinus)

This is a good read from a Church father.

 

[WarriorAngel]

St. Victorinus

An ecclesiastical writer who flourished about 270, and who suffered martyrdom probably in 303, under Diocletian.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

St. Victorinus An ecclesiastical writer who flourished about 270, and who suffered martyrdom probably in 303, under Diocletian.

CHURCH FATHERS: Commentary on the Apocalypse (Victorinus)

This is a good read from a Church father.

Hi. When was the book of Revelation finally available for any Christian to do a commentary on it?
[The translation from Victorinus is not a very good translation in my view.]

Another words, where is the first instance that book was read aloud orally or quoted from in the first early churches? Thanks.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7167075

Revelation 1:1 An-un-covering Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the GOD, to show to His bond-servants, which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness. And He signifies commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bondservants of Him, John.
2 Who testifies to-the Word of-the GOD, and the witness of Jesus Christ as-much-as he saw.
3 Happy the one-reading, and the ones-hearing the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings the in her having been written, for the time nigh

 

[WarriorAngel]

My fault, i didnt post the link to his biography.
Victorinus <~ Click.


He was bishop of the City of Pettau (Petabium, Poetovio), on the Drave, in Styria (Austria); hence his surname of Petravionensis or sometimes Pictaviensis, e.g. in the Roman Martyrology, where he is registered under 2 November, which long caused it to be thought that he belonged to the Diocese of Poitiers (France). Until the seventeenth century he was likewise confounded with the Latin rhetorician, Victorinus After. According to St. Jerome, who gives him an honourable place in his catalogue of ecclesiastical writers, Victorinus composed commentaries on various books of Holy Scripture, such as Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Isaias, Ezechiel, Habacuc, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, St. Matthew, and the Apocalypse, besides treatises against the heresies of his time.

Generally, when i post an ecf - it means a father of the Church. SO forgive me...if this caused confusion.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Interesting to note, these are the only remaining remnants of his writings and because he shared some heresies with the Millenarians his writings are looked at as though partially heretical.

But i find the reads interesting. I dont know if this was part of the writing considered Millenarians, but possibly so since he is writing on the Revelation aka Apocalyse of St John.

Although we note; he is a Saint of the Church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

My fault, i didnt post the link to his biography.
Victorinus <~ Click.

Hi. What was the date of his commentary on Revelation and did he associate it with the Olivet Discourse and Daniel both?
I didn't really see who he associated the "Queen/Harlot" in revelation with, but maybe I just missed it, as that is the subject of the OP. Thanks.

http://christianforums.com/showthrea...5617198&page=2
She who sits as queen, not widow, never mourns

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7255796
Matthew 24/Olivet Discourse and Partial Preterists question

 

[WarriorAngel]

About 270 AD he was doing his writings.

Here is the chapter about the WoB

1-6. There came one of the seven angels, which have the seven bowls, and spoke with me, saying, Come, I will show you the judgment of that great harlot who sits upon many waters. And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs. The decrees of that senate are always accomplished against all, contrary to the preaching of the true faith; and now already mercy being cast aside, itself here gave the decree among all nations.
3. And I saw the woman herself sitting upon the scarlet-coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy. But to sit upon the scarlet beast, the author of murders, is the image of the devil. Where also is treated of his captivity, concerning which we have fully considered. I remember, indeed, that this is called Babylon also in the Apocalypse, on account of confusion; and in Isaiah also; and Ezekiel called it Sodom. In fine, if you compare what is said against Sodom, and what Isaiah says against Babylon, and what the Apocalypse says, you will find that they are all one.
9. The seven heads are the seven hills, on which the woman sits. That is, the city of Rome.

* MINE -[the pagan Rome remember - since this was before they were free and were being persecuted by the pagan government]


10. And there are seven kings: five have fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he is come, he will be for a short time. The time must be understood in which the written Apocalypse was published, since then reigned Cæsar Domitian; but before him had been Titus his brother, and Vespasian, Otho, Vitellius, and Galba. These are the five who have fallen. One remains, under whom the Apocalypse was written&#8212; Domitian, to wit. The other has not yet come, speaks of Nerva; and when he is come, he will be for a short time, for he did not complete the period of two years.
11. And the beast which you saw is of the seven. Since before those kings Nero reigned.
And he is the eighth. He says only when this beast shall come, reckon it the eighth place, since in that is the completion. He added:&#8212;
And shall go into perdition. For that ten kings received royal power when he shall move from the east, he says. He shall be sent from the city of Rome with his armies. And Daniel sets forth the ten horns and the ten diadems. And that these are eradicated from the former ones&#8212;that is, that three of the principal leaders are killed by Antichrist: that the other seven give him honour and wisdom and power, of whom he says:&#8212;
16. These shall hate the harlot, to wit, the city, and shall burn her flesh with fire. Now that one of the heads was, as it were, slain to death, and that the stroke of his death was directed, he speaks of Nero. For it is plain that when the cavalry sent by the senate was pursuing him, he himself cut his throat. Him therefore, when raised up, God will send as a worthy king, but worthy in such a way as the Jews merited. And since he is to have another name, He shall also appoint another name, that so the Jews may receive him as if he were the Christ. Says Daniel: He shall not know the lust of women, although before he was most impure, and he shall know no God of his fathers: for he will not be able to seduce the people of the circumcision, unless he is a judge of the law. Daniel 11:37 Finally, also, he will recall the saints, not to the worship of idols, but to undertake circumcision, and, if he is able, to seduce any; for he shall so conduct himself as to be called Christ by them. But that he rises again from hell, we have said above in the word of Isaiah: Water shall nourish him, and hell has increased him; who, however, must come with name unchanged, and doings unchanged, as says the Spirit.

 

[Anglian]

17.5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Dear LLOJ,

Andrew of Caesarea did a commentary on the Book of Revelation in the sixth century, and the only Eastern Father to whom he refers is Oecumenius, who is also early sixth century.
Victorinus is, indeed, the earliest western commentator. Bede's eighth century commentary is said to be a good one, though I have not read it.

Andrew's commentary is not, I think, available in English, though there are quotations from it in A. Taushev, The Apocalypse in the teachings of Ancient Christianity (Platina, 1995).

The Book is in St. Athanasius' festal letter which defined the canon, so it was accepted in the fifth century in the East.

Hope that helps a little.

peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

16. These shall hate the harlot, to wit, the city, and shall burn her flesh with fire. Now that one of the heads was, as it were, slain to death, and that the stroke of his death was directed, he speaks of Nero.

Howdy. I found this interesting. The same form of the word for "slaghter" in Reve 5:6 is used in Reve 13:3 with one of the heads being "feminine".
Also the greek word used for "blow/stripe" is also the same used for "plagues". Still studying on this.

[I still think a greek/english interlinear is best used for translating the Divine book of Revelation myself]

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 5:6 And I saw and behold! in midst of the throne and of the four living-ones and in midst of the elders a lamb-kin/n standing, as having been slaughtered/esfag-menon/N <4969> (5772),

Reve 13:3 And one/F, out of the heads/f of it, as having been slaughtered/esfag-menhn/<4969> (5772)F into death, and the blow/stripe/ of the death of it/her was healed, and marvels whole the land behind of the wild-beast.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Any pre 4th century writings on the book of Revelation?

 

[Ramon96]

Any pre 4th century writings on the book of Revelation?

Why do you care? I thought you said you did not care what the ECF said or wrote? But anyway, I do not know of any pre-4th century writing [commentary] on the Book of Revelation. The earliest extant commentaries on Revelation in Greek date from Oecumenius's commentary in the sixth century, which was soon accompanied by that of Andrew of Caesarea. Earlier Eastern Fathers did, however, make reference to Revelation in non-commentary works.

Blessings,
Ramon

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I thought you said you did not care what the ECF said?

I take it you do not have a contribution to make. Perhaps others care about their writings and would like to see them their views on that QEEEN in Revelation.

 

[Ramon96]

I take it you do not have a contribution to make. Perhaps others care about their writings and would like to see them their views on that QEEEN in Revelation.

I just did.......

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I just did.......

Oh ok thanks, as I just saw your edited post.

 

[Ramon96]

Forgot to mention that there are six other commentaries--those of Victorinus of Petovium, Tyconius, Primasius, Caesarius of Arles, Apringius of Beja and Saint Bede the Venerable. But these commentaries are not extant, and only fragments remain. For example, only [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]72 manuscripts are still in existence of Saint Bede Commentary.[/FONT] Also, Victorinus of Poetovio wrote a commentary on Revelation which seems to date from the 3rd Century, though it is agreed among scholars that these texts are really a remnant of his works.

But the earliest extant commentaries on Revelation in Greek date is from Oecumenius's commentary in the sixth century, which was soon accompanied by that of Andrew of Caesarea.

You can find these in the Ancient Christian Commentary Series on Revelation if anyone here is interested.

Blessings,
Ramon

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Forgot to mention that there are six other commentaries--those of Victorinus of Petovium, Tyconius, Primasius, Caesarius of Arles, Apringius of Beja and Saint Bede the Venerable. But these commentaries are not extant, and only fragments remain. For example, only [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]72 manuscripts are still in existence of Saint Bede Commentary.[/FONT] Also, Victorinus of Poetovio wrote a commentary on Revelation which seems to date from the 3rd Century, though it is agreed among scholars that these texts are really a remnant of his works.

But the earliest extant commentaries on Revelation in Greek date is from Oecumenius's commentary in the sixth century, which was soon accompanied by that of Andrew of Caesarea.

You can find these in the Ancient Christian Commentary Series on Revelation if anyone here is interested.

Blessings,
Ramon

Ok thanks Ramon. I put this up in a respnse to a poster on the Matt 24 thread concerning that "Queen":

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7255796
Matthew 24/Olivet Discourse and Partial Preterists question

Greetings Thekla.
The only type of Queen I see mentioned in Revelation is Jezebel who was married to the wicked Ahab in the OC. I have a study just on her and curiously, the assembly of "thyatira" is where JESUS actually proclaims Himself "Son of the God".

I may start a thread on this Woman.

Reve 2:20 But I am having down/against of thee. That thou permit the woman Jezebel the one saying herself Prophetess, and she is teaching and she is deceiving the my bondservants to fornicate and to be eating idol sacrifices.

2Kings 9:8 For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]eth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev46.htm
JEZEBEL

............There is one name in the Bible that no parents would think to give to their daughter, and that name is Jezebel. The name Jezebel sweeps across the pages of the Bible. The typical Jezebel of the Old Testament was the daughter of Ethbaal, king of Tyre and Sidon. The name Ethbaal means "with Baal." Prior to becoming king, Ethbaal was a priest to the goddess
Jezebel married Ahab, the king of Israel.

As queen of Israel, she immediately set up the altars, shrines, and temples of her false gods, and began to require the people of Israel to worship these gods. The Bible tells us that she also practiced witchcraft and that at one time Jezebel had four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and four hundred prophets of the grove who "ate at her table" (I Kings 18:19), which undoubtedly means that she supported and influenced every one of these false prophets. Baal was the god of agriculture.

Baal represents the god of plenty and increase. The goddess of the grove was Astarte, the goddess of all sensual love and sex. Temple prostitutes, sexual orgies, and all manner of uncleanness were part of the ritual of her worship.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Where is it first recorded on when Revelation was actually either visioned or recorded in writing before the 4th century. Thanks.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I also have a question concerning this version of revelation. Do either the Catholics or Orthodox hold this to be inspired?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0831.htm

After the taking up of our Lord Jesus Christ, I John was alone upon Mount Tabor, where also He showed us His undefiled Godhead; and as I was not able to stand, I fell upon the ground, and prayed to the Lord, and said: O Lord my God, who hast deemed me worthy to be Your servant, hear my voice, and teach me about Your coming........................

Here Paul mentions a man caught away to the third heaven and the paradise 14 yrs ago from when he wrote this. Any idea what year that would be? Thanks.

2 Corinthians 12:1 To be boasting is binding not, being expedient indeed I shall be coming yet into visions and revealings of Lord
2 I have known/perceived a man in Christ, before/toward years fourteen whether in body, not I have known/perceived, whether out-side of the body not I have known/perceived; the God has known/perceived, being caught away the such one till third heaven.
3 And I have known/perceived such a man whether in body whether apart/out-of from the body not I know/perceive, the God has known/perceived.
4 That he was caught-away into the Paradise and hears un-declarable declarations which not permitting to man to speak.
5 Over of the such one will I shall be boasting, over yet myself I shall not be boasting except in my infirmities/weaknesses.