Dv

[ValleyGal]

Okay, I'm probably going to get blasted for posting this but I'm going to do it anyway. Why? Because it needs awareness.

Even on these boards, there is a lot of information about women being victimized by domestic violence, and the assumption most of us have when discussing abusive marriages is that it is generally the man's fault. There have been intense and stressful threads about feminism and how men are not so affected by it. I have stood up for men numerous times on this board with disappointing results from some of the women. There are some people on this board who say men and women are no different, and that generalizations can't be made about one gender or another.

I love some of these little non-scientific social experiments that come out from time to time that show otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cywQhs_6iC4

 

[Hetta]

I hate those kind of experiments. They cause who knows how much stress to the bystanders, and they are completely unethical. Also to note, when the woman is beating up the man, men are laughing and/or just walking past. So it seems that men are the ones who need to change and step up.

As for "disappointing results" from women - these are called opinions. Not everyone is going to agree with you, that's life.

 

[ValleyGal]

I don't expect everyone to agree with me; respectful discussion, even in disagreement, is an attainable and realistic goal, for those who care to discuss.

I think it is a terrible imbalance and injustice to men that they even treat dv against them so lightly and as though it is not a serious issue to address. Why should men always be blamed for dv against women, but women are not being made to take responsibility for their dv against men - especially when women cry so loudly about dv against them? Seems a little hypocritical to expect men to smarten up when women don't have to smarten up their own behaviour.

Men are not the only ones who need to step up...we expect them to stop being violent against women, we expect them to step up and intervene when a woman is being abusive....why can't women step in and stop another woman from beating up a man?

I agree, the social experiments are unethical. They would never be approved by a college board. At least in this one, they do take steps to explain to bystanders that it is a little experiment.

 

[Hetta]

The IRB is on the phone letting you know that providing debriefing =/= informed consent. It's appalling and should be banned. I am waiting for one day one of those guys who is told it is a social experiment to sue them all for emotional distress.

I don't think you read what I said. The majority of those filmed walking past the couple were men, and they were smiling/not intervening. If women aren't there, how can they step in? How are they responsible if they are not present? How do you know that they won't respond on the basis of 30 seconds of a video which may or may not be accurate? Who is to say that these people didn't cut this video to fit their own beliefs.

Show me some peer reviewed studies on the topic and that's a different story, but You Tube videos mean nothing to me. My youngest son makes YT videos and he's 14, so anyone can do it, basically.

IME, I would never, ever step into a violent situation. I would call the cops, but I would not get in the middle. Unfortunately, only too often, the one interfering is then set upon by both protagonists and ends up worse off. IRL, those men intervening on the woman's behalf may have ended up in the middle of a fight, but they felt strong enough to physically put that man down. Most women wouldn't feel physically able to do that.

women cry so loudly about dv against them

Should women be silent about DV?

Again, men are a big part of the problem. While they believe that any man who gets pushed about by a woman is a [choose your own word] and needs to put that woman in her place, it won't change.

 

[Hetta]

And actually, when I saw "DV" as the title, my mind instantly sprang to it being the abbreviation for dependent variable, because that's the way I roll these days.

 

[mkgal1]

Okay, I'm probably going to get blasted for posting this but I'm going to do it anyway. Why? Because it needs awareness.

Even on these boards, there is a lot of information about women being victimized by domestic violence, and the assumption most of us have when discussing abusive marriages is that it is generally the man's fault. There have been intense and stressful threads about feminism and how men are not so affected by it. I have stood up for men numerous times on this board with disappointing results from some of the women. There are some people on this board who say men and women are no different, and that generalizations can't be made about one gender or another.

That's not quite what's been said ("men are women are no different")....more accurately what's typically said is that "all men aren't the same....and all women aren't the same"; and that men and women should be treated with equal justice.

Also....as far as feminism being brought up....I know that I--personally--have said that feminism (the Emma Watson variety) is *helping* men (not that "they aren't affected by it").

I'm confused, because you're seeming to be asking for equality..but also arguing that men and women *are* different (and that's really the heart of this social experiment). It's the generalizations that feed into these sorts of results. If you notice.....in one of the clips a guy joined in and also hit the guy along with the girl (maybe he was operating from the perspective that the generalization fit that this guy probably deserved to be hit and so he joined in as well. I don't know).


Another thread I posted a while ago could be related to this....when men are assumed to be about physical strength and "fighting the good fight"....like in this movie. It seems to be assumed (by those that like to use stereotypes) that men like to fight and can handle themselves (especially against "a girl"):

http://www.christianforums.com/t7843518/

 

[mkgal1]

I just posted this in the other thread, but it applies well here as well: "It’s pretty simple really: if you believe in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes, then you’re a feminist."~written by a 15 year old boy

 

[mkgal1]

I have stood up for men numerous times on this board with disappointing results from some of the women

So have I (with "disappointing results" as well).

....and the assumption most of us have when discussing abusive marriages is that it is generally the man's fault

I'm glad you're speaking for yourself here.....because I don't make that assumption.

 

[Avniel]

I think that's a very valid point. I am going to use the Ray Rice example for instance, you have a man drunk *warning*, football player *warning* and you charge him and he dodges your punch and slaps you once *warning* *warning* *warning*. This is where I think women aren't being taught, it's one thing to defend yourself but if you charge someone that is bigger then you stronger also faster and more likely to really be able to hurt you, women need not to charge again. I learned that from having an older brother that doesn't mean let someone beat you up just don't walk towards a beat down. I think that's where the line is if you hit someone and they beat you up you might press charges but you in no way are a victim.

Alot of the time from my prospective women place themselves in positions to be abused. When I go out what I see is waaaay more women hitting men. I mean look at the different reaction we have to Jay-Z's elevator situation. We suspect jay-z did something to her sister, she might have witnessed him flirting or maybe she saw his mistress. We(society for the petty) validate her reason for attacking him. However when we see a man that was attacked, the woman was the aggressor both strikes and we wonder why she's still with him? However we don't wonder why Jay-Z doesn't leave Beyoncé.

My question to feminists is if Ray Rice was in that elevator with a man and he knocked him out would he be considered a hero? If we differentiate between what is the proper way to respond to an aggressor based on gender doesn't that defeat the purpose? Is it possible women may feel more comfortable being the aggressor due to the different treatment by society?

My opinion as a student of fighting is this once you enter a ring or a cage you have declared you are fighting me for sport. When I'm walking down the street that's way different. Anytime a person throws a fist or a punch that person has declared they want to kill you. That is the reality fighting can bring about. Also I have seen women pull out knives, you hear stories of women killing other women and men. Noooooo not me life is serious if someone thinks that little of your life I think you should neutralize that threat.

I think men also play a major role in this. I think you have to know who you are as a man and stay true to that. Women that hit men start it from the first year and on, sometimes earlier. If you know you have a respect your personal space thing I think you shouldn't be with a woman that has hand problems. I know my parents beat me, nobody else could as an adult I will not allow someone to challenge me on that level man or woman. My wife has never been in a fight she has never hit anyone she used to sit on her little cousins when she was mad at them. She has her ways with words and she isn't scared to speak her mind and i would never lay a hand on her and she would never lay a hand on me.

An example of what I see typically is like my cousins story. Boy watches to much BET he thinks he's a street hustler his parents are middle class and he grew up in a 500 dollar home(NYC but still). Boy meets a girl that was raised by her grandmother, she was born a crack baby, has a family history of mental illness, stabbed her own brother with a knife and used to be a lesbian but she broke up her because she was to abusive. Girl get pregnant and she has a baby. Girl stabs boy a few times, cuts him, fights him, scratches up his skin and then finally one day boy hits girl. Every so often girl hits boy and will get hit back. When the police gets called who is the problem? Not the girl that threatens to kill her own children, has threatened my daughter, has threatened me, the boy.....it's the boy's fault shame on him. When the reality is the first time she put her hands on him he should have left her like all the other people in her life. There are a lot of good men that just got hit to many times that are in programs, probation and jail.


We have to recognize that Ray Rice wasn't the aggressor and he lost everything and his wife gained the prayers and the sympathy of a nation because she attacked him twice and got knocked out.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Its always the man's fault unless he's fighting for his life, and even then its usually his fault. Men need to walk away when they know its bad. Walk or run.

 

[DZoolander]

Well, the message given in society is that men ought not to hit women...but there really is no equivalent social imperative that says the opposite.

That's based on the idea that men have far more capacity to do damage than women do...at least that's what I've always gathered.

The only time I think society would accept a man smacking a woman is if:

a) The size disparity is HUGELY in favor of the woman (think some midget getting pelted by China from the WWF or something)
or
b) If the woman pulls a weapon of some sort/thereby equalizes the capacity for inflicting harm.

I do think that's the long and short of it...and I'll admit that I have that inner reaction as well. If I were to see a woman getting hit by a man - it gives me a far different reaction than if I see some chick hitting a dude. Heck - I remember one time in Jr. High I got whacked by some girl who's "boyfriend" I was in an argument with. To be honest - it smarted a bit (she got me in the ear...lol) - but it was pretty easy to shake off.

I think that's why people react the way they do. It isn't that they're really looking at it SIMPLY as "abuse" (meaning - someone's hitting someone else) - but rather that one has far more capacity to truly harm the other.

...and I do kinda agree with/accept that.

This might be a bad analogy - but it's kind of like the Israel/Hamas thing going on. While on the one hand you can argue that Israel has the right to defend itself...which I wholeheartedly agree with. But at the same time - how can you not look at it and see it's kind of like Mike Tyson fighting an epileptic midget?

Sure - Mike has the right not to get hit...But at some point after he's knocked the midget out a number of times...how do you not say "Ummm, maybe a little restraint or change in tactics on your part is appropriate?"

 

[ValleyGal]

My question to feminists is if Ray Rice was in that elevator with a man and he knocked him out would he be considered a hero? If we differentiate between what is the proper way to respond to an aggressor based on gender doesn't that defeat the purpose? Is it possible women may feel more comfortable being the aggressor due to the different treatment by society?

Exactly! If women want full equality, then they better be equipped to handle being treated the same way as men are for initiating violence in the home (or out). Yet if people - men included - allow women to get away with being the aggressor, that is inconsistent with what feminism wants (equality), and then men will be contributing to a society where it's okay for women to beat up men, but not for men to beat up women.

I just posted this in the other thread, but it applies well here as well: "It’s pretty simple really: if you believe in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes, then you’re a feminist."~written by a 15 year old boy

Then there are not so many feminists as we all think. After all, if we believe in social equality, women would not get lighter prison sentences and things like this little "social experiment" comes up and people would be reacting the same way to men being beaten as women being beaten.



What message are you going to perpetuate? Would you step in if you saw a woman beating a man? Why or why not? True feminism will take the consequences of how poorly we treat our men in society.

 

[Hetta]

What message are you going to perpetuate? Would you step in if you saw a woman beating a man? Why or why not? True feminism will take the consequences of how poorly we treat our men in society.

If there are so few feminists, why are they taking the blame for "how poorly we treat our men in society?" Who are we? If you are treating men poorly then you take the blame. I don't have any of that blame.

Why it is it one hand everyone hates feminists, but on the other they're supposed to right every wrong in society? It's too funny really.

I think I'll just focus on the area of life where I have a small amount of power - which is my family and friends.

And if I saw a man hitting a woman or a woman hitting a man, no I wouldn't step in for reasons already stated. It's dangerous and I'm not going to get hit by both or either of them. I'll call the cops and wait until they come and give them my eyewitness statement.

 

[DZoolander]

Personally, I'm kinda like Hetta, insofar as I wouldn't get myself in between people involved in an altercation. I might yell at 'em "Hey, back the explicative off" - but you don't know the dynamics of the couple and you might end up biting off more than you can chew (where they both turn on you).

Heck - I saw some video the other week where in some God forsaken third world craphole of a place - some guy was beating up his girlfriend/wife/whatever and a crowd intervened/beat the guy up. Now - when the initial first couple of guys came along - the girl in fact did exactly that. She got back up from her beating to try and defend her husband/boyfriend/whatever.

Thankfully there were a ton of people that got involved and she got pushed off to the side so the beating of the guy could begin anew and unimpeded - but - clearly people are like that.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Exactly! If women want full equality, then they better be equipped to handle being treated the same way as men are for initiating violence in the home (or out). Yet if people - men included - allow women to get away with being the aggressor, that is inconsistent with what feminism wants (equality), and then men will be contributing to a society where it's okay for women to beat up men, but not for men to beat up women.




Then there are not so many feminists as we all think. After all, if we believe in social equality, women would not get lighter prison sentences and things like this little "social experiment" comes up and people would be reacting the same way to men being beaten as women being beaten.



What message are you going to perpetuate? Would you step in if you saw a woman beating a man? Why or why not? True feminism will take the consequences of how poorly we treat our men in society.

I had to call the cops when my friend's almost-ex was trying to kick my front door in to get at him. And like a fool, he opened the locked door while I had my head turned and she grabbed him and they started fighting right there on the porch. It was all I could do to drag him back inside and get the door closed and locked again.
It took me and a few others years to convince him that her beating him was something he needed to escape from. My message is to take the fact that women do beat men seriously. Don't think yourself less of a man for speaking out about being abused. And man or woman, do speak out if you see this sort of abuse. When that was ongoing with my friend, I didn't think he'd actually leave. But he did. And he made sure to tell us that our support was key in helping him realize how wrong the whole situation was.

 

[DZoolander]

For all the talk people give about how lightly people take relationships - it's always been my belief that the exact opposite is true. People in fact are prone to staying too long, and are too reticent to leave.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

For all the talk people give about how lightly people take relationships - it's always been my belief that the exact opposite is true. People in fact are prone to staying too long, and are too reticent to leave.

I've seen quite a bit of both. I've been dumped suddenly and I know someone (that same friend's son!) else who was very recently. Dumped with zero explanation via text message.

I'm the type that sticks around forever, for good or bad. My marriage is in the "good" category and a past relationship was in the "bad". I stuck in the bad one waaaay too long.

 

[LinkH]

Men will help a woman abused in public, but if they help a man being abused, they might end up having to hit or restrain a woman. That could be a factor in men not helping men be abused.

Another factor may be that the man could likely have restrained the woman who was hitting him by grabbing her wrists.

But I agree the whole gender thing with DV and relationship violence doesn't make sense. Men and women laugh at a man hitting a woman. In the movies, usually if a man hits a woman, it's a bad thing. They'll have a woman hit the female villain But sometimes a woman hitting a man is almost glorified in action movies. Some men think it's funny if a woman hits a man like in the video, but they are taught not to hit woman. So if a man does end up with a violent woman, and he's trained not to hit back, that's a bad situation to be in. If he does break down and hit her or restrain her and she hauls the cops, he could end up in jail. If she hits him and he calls the cops, there is a high chance he could end up in jail with a DV charge on his record.

As far as getting this past a university IRB, I doubt it could pass. This isn't a professional academic 'experiment'-- more like a YouTube prank or that TV show that asks 'what would you do?' It's dangerous for the man roughing up the young woman, especially.

This is a different topic, but that show 'Married at First Sight' had at least one person affiliated with a university, maybe 2, performing a 'social experiment.' I wonder if any of them got in trouble with their universities for engaging in this unethical 'experiment.' Having people marry, calling their marriage an 'experiment' and telling them they have a chance to divorce in 5 weeks is unethical. Maybe university officials wouldn't see the ethical problem with it.

 

[Hetta]

Men and women laugh at a man hitting a woman.

What? Who?

This is a different topic, but that show 'Married at First Sight' had at least one person affiliated with a university, maybe 2, performing a 'social experiment.' I wonder if any of them got in trouble with their universities for engaging in this unethical 'experiment.' Having people marry, calling their marriage an 'experiment' and telling them they have a chance to divorce in 5 weeks is unethical. Maybe university officials wouldn't see the ethical problem with it.

While the university administration may take a dim view of a student taking part in a stupid experiment, if it is not undertaken on the premises or with other students or using the university's name, I don't think they are involved. An institution's IRB is typically only concerned with research taking place within their institution and by their employees.

 

[ValleyGal]

Right...this is not a discussion on the ethics of it all. It's a self-made social thing like that one reporter does on "What Would You Do?" He has things like this all the time and no one throws a hissy over his ethics.

Anyway, it's not about the ethics or about "research." It's about the social response to men versus woman-initiated dv. Imo, if the issue is not going to be dealt with right away, it will escalate to the point where the social pendulum swings where it's socially acceptable for a woman to beat a man - like it used to be socially acceptable for men to beat their wives (this is where the "rule of thumb" began - a man could beat his wife as long as the weapon was no wider than the width of his thumb - or so the saying goes, at least). It already goes on...let's not let it get any worse or more socially acceptable.