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TheListener

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Here is a dumb question which has been in the back of my head for a couple of days.

Matthew 5:17
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

and

Deuteronomy 14:3
3 Do not eat any detestable thing.

(I think Deuteronomy 14:3 is the reason Jews don't eat pigs).

Now, if Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fullfill it, does this mean he is fullfilling it by giving us a new updated law or is he saying he is fullfilling what was said in the prophecies of the OT & therefore fullfilling the law? Or does he mean we should obey the NT commands + the OT commands?

Same can be said about circumsision or stoning your rebel child or stoning prostitutes etc etc etc , I gave the pork example but the same is for circumsision. Why did the new covenant ditch circumsision & take up eating pork if Jesus explicitly said He "did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets"?

I've heard the short answer "old covenant old rules, new covenant new rules" and I understand the logic behind it. I'm ok with that.

But what I want is Biblical references as to HOW & WHY we came to the conclusion that the old rules from Deuteronomy & Leviticus etc no longer apply.

This is causing some doubt in my head, please can someone give me some Bible references as to why we no longer eat pork or circumsize our kids?

Thanks.
 

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TheListener said:
Here is a dumb question which has been in the back of my head for a couple of days.



and



(I think Deuteronomy 14:3 is the reason Jews don't eat pigs).

Now, if Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fullfill it, does this mean he is fullfilling it by giving us a new updated law or is he saying he is fullfilling what was said in the prophecies of the OT & therefore fullfilling the law? Or does he mean we should obey the NT commands + the OT commands?

Same can be said about circumsision or stoning your rebel child or stoning prostitutes etc etc etc , I gave the pork example but the same is for circumsision. Why did the new covenant ditch circumsision & take up eating pork if Jesus explicitly said He "did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets"?

I've heard the short answer "old covenant old rules, new covenant new rules" and I understand the logic behind it. I'm ok with that.

But what I want is Biblical references as to HOW & WHY we came to the conclusion that the old rules from Deuteronomy & Leviticus etc no longer apply.

This is causing some doubt in my head, please can someone give me some Bible references as to why we no longer eat pork or circumsize our kids?

Thanks.
Matt. 22: 37-40 "....the law and the prophets hang on these."
:preach:
 
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Pyrogenesis

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Jesus did come to fulfull the law, but it wasn't the law that people were thinking of. He was the Saviour of the Isralites, come to set them free from the law in accordance to the prophesies. A good portion of the law was dedicated to keeping the Isralites pure and acceptable in God's sight. When Jesus died he took the impure and unacceptable part from us; we no longer need the purification rituals and laws to make ourselves pure, because Jesus has made us clean.

Acts 10:10-15 (GNB) said:
He became hungry and wanted something to eat; while the food was being prepared, he had a vision. He saw heaven opened and something coming down that looked like a large sheet being lowered by its four corners to the earth. In it were all kinds of animals, reptiles, and wild birds. A voice said to him, "Get up, Peter; kill and eat!" But Peter said, "Certainly not, Lord! I have never eaten anything ritually unclean or defiled." The voice spoke to him again, "Do not consider anything unclean that God has declared clean."

As for circumcision, Paul adresses that in Romans. Circumcision was a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham, but that covenant has been replaced by the covenant between us and Jesus, so circumcision is no longer needed. Paul also says that a physically circumcised man may become spiritually uncircumcised my turning away from God, and visa-versa.
 
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vinc

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This is not a dumb question but important questions which come to every Bible student. I agree with and appreciate the replies made so far.

By saying Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.",

Law in the above verse means Laws given in the first 5 books of the Old Testament (also called Torah or Pentateuch).

And the Prophets in the above verse means the remaining books (like Isaiah, Jeremaiah etc.) of the Old Testament written by the Prophets. The Jews were having the entire Old Testament at that time and that only was regarded as Holy Scriptures or Word of God by them. The New Testament bundle of books came (or were added) later on, a few centuries after the death of Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus wanted to convince the Jews around that He came as a result of the prophecies of the Old Testament as they were thinking that He was telling some new things to them which were a little different from what they regarded as Holy Scriptures (i.e Old Testament). In fact, what Lord Jesus Christ was saying to them was a spiritual version of what they were reading and following literally.

Regarding Eating Pork (or any meat)

Deuteronomy 14:3 "Do not eat any detestable thing".

As far as the above verse is concerned, yes, this could be the reason why the Jews did not eat pigs. Some of the Orthodox and Religious Jews may not be eating Pork even today. I guess even this is why even most of the Muslims do not eat Pork as the Muslims have the First 5 Books of the Old Testament in their Holy Book Quran too.

Healthwise speaking, Pigs are more prone to infection due to what they eat. And if a human eats an infected pig, s(he) may be affected by the infection too. Maybe this could be the reason why God gave such a commandment in those days. And some of us literally follow it even to this day without knowing the actual reason why. The verses (Mark 7:18-23, 1 Corinthians 8:8, Acts 10:10-16) below help us to understand why we can eat Pork or any other meat today -

Mark 7:18-23 - And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

1 Corinthians 8:8 - But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Acts 10:10-16 - And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

If we follow the NT commandments, we are automatically following the OT commandments too and most probably be living a spiritually superior standard of life than those who literally (maybe blindly) follow only the OT commandments.

Regarding Circumcision

We do not know the real reason why God gave the commandment of Circumcision during Moses times. Abraham was not circumcised person but yet God accounted His righteousness. Apostle Paul clearly explains why circumcision became useless in Romans 2:25-29, Romans 3:1, 3:30, 4:9-12, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Galatians 5:6, 6:15, Colossians 2:11, 3:11 given below -

Romans 2:25-29 - For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 3:1 - What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Romans 3:30 - Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 4:9-12 - Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

1 Corinthians 7:18,19 - Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 6:15 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature

Colossians 2:11 - In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Colossians 3:11 - Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Regarding Stoning or Punishment to OT Law-Breakers

Stoning Rebel Childs or Prostitutes were extremely hard-hearted commandments. They might have been given by God in order that they would live a high spiritual standard of life fearing that they might be heavily punished according to these religious laws for such crimes. In fact, many people were literally killed in those days due to such hard-hearted religious laws. It did not improve their spiritual standard either. It became worse because of another deadly sin called Judgementalism being committed because of such religious laws.

John 1:17 - For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

After Lord Jesus Christ came, mercy, grace and truth came. He spoke about Godly Divine virtues like Love, Forgiveness, Acceptance, Meekness, Humbleness, Tolerance, Gentleness etc.

Matthew 22:35-40 - Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So, according to the above verse in Matthew 22:35-40, if we strongly adhere to 2 Commandments i.e Love for the Creator and Love for the Creation then that is as good as obeying the complete Old Testament.

Matthew 23:23 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

So, according to the above verse in Matthew 23:23, the weightier matters of the Law are right Judgement (correct understanding or true discernment about a Spiritual Truth or any Person), Mercy and Faith. These are more important than stoning or punishment.

Romans 13:8-10 - Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Apostle Paul explains to the Romans in the above verses in a similar way.

He further says....

1 Corinthians 10:23 - All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (meaning all things of the Law are not expedient and some of them may not work out for our spiritual edification).

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:11 - But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:13 - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 3:23-26 - But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

According to the above verse, before Faith (Lord Jesus Christ) came our forefathers during Moses times were kept under the Law (OT Laws) until Faith which would be revealed afterwards (i.e 4000 years). The Law was like a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ (by making us feel guilty of law-breaking and making us repent) so that we might be justified by Faith in Christ's Sacrifice (for our sins). Now, after Faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (i.e no longer under the cruel OT Laws).

Galatians 5:4,5 - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Galatians 5:14 - For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Timothy 1:9 - Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers...

Galatians 5:18
- But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 5:23,24 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

It is sufficient for us to bear the Fruits of the Spirit i.e Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, Temperance (Self-Control) because that is as good as keeping any OT or NT Law.

Ephesians 2:15,16 - Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Lord Jesus Christ has abolished the OT Law of Commandments which became as an enemy to mankind. So, generally speaking Lord Jesus Christ program was an upgraded version of Moses program.
 
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Sketcher

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vinc said:
Jesus wanted to convince the Jews around that He came as a result of the prophecies of the Old Testament as they were thinking that He was telling some new things to them which were a little different from what they regarded as Holy Scriptures (i.e Old Testament). In fact, what Lord Jesus Christ was saying to them was a spiritual version of what they were reading and following literally.
That's right. The Law that they were following had become an empty shell. It was all about the letter of the Law and not about the spirit of the Law. The context here is the Sermon on the Mount, and Jesus is saying that He was filling in the gaps in what they understood the Law to be. Though He said this at a different time, the faith of the rabbis and the faith of the people had eroded:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former." - Matthew 23:23

Cancelling the Law by nailing it to the cross (Colossians 2:14) came later. He was done teaching, and then became the sacrifice for all our sins. This made the old system of sacrifices obsolete, as we read in Hebrews.
 
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TheListener

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Acts 10:10-16
- And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

I thought this was meant to say that all persons (gentiles & jews) were to be tought about the Gospel..?


Luke 10:29-37

29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" 30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."


So then does the law not apply to our dealings with non-Christians?
 
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Pyrogenesis

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TheListener said:
I thought this was meant to say that all persons (gentiles & jews) were to be tought about the Gospel..?

That was part of it, but if God was talking exclusively about spreading the Gospel to the Gentiles, then He would have said so.



TheListener said:
So then does the law not apply to our dealings with non-Christians?

I'm not entirely sure how you got that out of that parable. The Samaritans were a people group that the Isralites had very little esteem for; by using a Samaritan as the good guy in His example and the Isralite holy men as the bad ones, Jesus was issuing a verbal slap in the face to the Phraisees. This parable is about putting aside your own agenda to help people in need, nothing more.
 
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Macca

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TheListener said:
Could you elaborate by what that means macca? Thanks mate. :)
Jesus had a discussion about the law; it cams down to "Love the Lord yopu God with all your heart, mind, strength and love you neighbour as yourself.
If you fulfil these two, then all the others will look after themselves.
:preach:
 
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AvgJoe

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TheListener said:
Here is a dumb question which has been in the back of my head for a couple of days.



and



(I think Deuteronomy 14:3 is the reason Jews don't eat pigs).

Now, if Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fullfill it, does this mean he is fullfilling it by giving us a new updated law or is he saying he is fullfilling what was said in the prophecies of the OT & therefore fullfilling the law? Or does he mean we should obey the NT commands + the OT commands?

Same can be said about circumsision or stoning your rebel child or stoning prostitutes etc etc etc , I gave the pork example but the same is for circumsision. Why did the new covenant ditch circumsision & take up eating pork if Jesus explicitly said He "did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets"?

I've heard the short answer "old covenant old rules, new covenant new rules" and I understand the logic behind it. I'm ok with that.

But what I want is Biblical references as to HOW & WHY we came to the conclusion that the old rules from Deuteronomy & Leviticus etc no longer apply.

This is causing some doubt in my head, please can someone give me some Bible references as to why we no longer eat pork or circumsize our kids?

Thanks.

A good article on this subject~~~> http://www.godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=697
 
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Simonline

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I'm afraid I disagree with much of what has been said on this thread. I should like to point you in the direction of the writings of David Stern at Jewish New Testament Publications:

Jewish New Testament by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590030/qid=1047217782/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-0449173-6805437?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


Jewish New Testament Commentary by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590111/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/103-0449173-6805437?v=glance


Complete Jewish Bible by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590154/qid=1047217782/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/103-0449173-6805437?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


Restoring The Jewishness Of The Gospel by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590014/qid=1047219547/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0449173-6805437?v=glance&s=books


A Messianic Jewish Manifesto by Dr. David H. Stern, published by Jewish New Testament Publications http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9653590022/qid=1047217843/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9802279-3256601?v=glance&s=books

also the writings of Brad H. Young:

Jesus The Jewish Theologian by Brad H. Young published by Hendricks Publishers http://www.hendrickson.com/html/product/30602.trade.html?category=all



Paul The Jewish Theologian by Brad H. Young published by Hendricks Publishers http://www.hendrickson.com/html/product/32486.acad.html?category=academic



Simonline.
 
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