I would say the law of faith that has been from the beginning.So how do they interpret the "one law for both Jew and Gentile"?
So how do they interpret the "one law for both Jew and Gentile"?
In this context, Gentiles are included in the congregational rulings.Lev 24:13 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. 15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. 16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death. 17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. 18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. 19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death. 22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God. 23 And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the Lord commanded Moses.
It is especially interesting that the Lord gets right to the nitty gritty of the "soul" that sins.... Not just Israel, but all nations. In the rulings of the temple services for sin, all nations are included as every human has a "soul".Numbers 15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land of your habitations, which I give unto you, 3 And will make an offering by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the Lord, of the herd or of the flock: 4 Then shall he that offereth his offering unto the Lord bring a meat offering of a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of oil. 5 And the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering shalt thou prepare with the burnt offering or sacrifice, for one lamb. 6 Or for a ram, thou shalt prepare for a meat offering two tenth deals of flour mingled with the third part of an hin of oil. 7 And for a drink offering thou shalt offer the third part of an hin of wine, for a sweet savour unto the Lord. 8 And when thou preparest a bullock for a burnt offering, or for a sacrifice in performing a vow, or peace offerings unto the Lord: 9 Then shall he bring with a bullock a meat offering of three tenth deals of flour mingled with half an hin of oil. 10 And thou shalt bring for a drink offering half an hin of wine, for an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord. 11 Thus shall it be done for one bullock, or for one ram, or for a lamb, or a kid. 12 According to the number that ye shall prepare, so shall ye do to every one according to their number. 13 All that are born of the country shall do these things after this manner, in offering an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord. 14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord; as ye do, so he shall do.
15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord.
16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
17 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 18 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land whither I bring you, 19 Then it shall be, that, when ye eat of the bread of the land, ye shall offer up an heave offering unto the Lord. 20 Ye shall offer up a cake of the first of your dough for an heave offering: as ye do the heave offering of the threshingfloor, so shall ye heave it. 21 Of the first of your dough ye shall give unto the Lord an heave offering in your generations. 22 And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the Lord hath spoken unto Moses, 23 Even all that the Lord hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the Lord commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations; 24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the Lord, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering. 25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their ignorance: 26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
Sorry vis, I disagree. On this one I agree with Jewish understanding here. Israel as a distinct set apart collective is called to keep and enforce their law in their land.It is especially interesting that the Lord gets right to the nitty gritty of the "soul" that sins.... Not just Israel, but all nations. In the rulings of the temple services for sin, all nations are included as every human has a "soul".
Sorry vis, I disagree. On this one I agree with Jewish understanding here. Israel as a distinct set apart collective is called to keep and enforce their law in their land.
Yep... and it includes the Gentiles in their land....Sorry vis, I disagree. On this one I agree with Jewish understanding here. Israel as a distinct set apart collective is called to keep and enforce their law in their land.
Yep... and it includes the Gentiles in their land....And when it is God's kingdom, it includes all.
Just a way for gentiles to try and condone their serving other gods.
That's what I see.
Gentiles that want their Pagan gods, their pagan traditions, their pagan rituals, they don't want God's ways, so they invent a way to keep all their pagan goings on.
Their excuse to reject the ways of God.
What would somebody tell a gentile to do concerning Sabbaths and feasts?
Tell the gentile that he is to have no Sabbath, no feast, no Passover, no Sukkot for the birth of Christ.
Tell the gentile that he may watch the Jews in their Sabbaths and feasts, but they are only to watch.
Tell the gentile that he hasn't the right to keep any day Holy.
Above all, tell him precisely that he could not possibly be the bride of Christ who has become one with a Jew.
Tell him that there is no adoption for him.
I just don't get this at all.
Most Gentiles here are up to speed here... told to go back to kindergarten is an insult.Every man has his own land because the man is the land, (both adamah and erets).
To whom does your Tsebiy-Land truly belong?
Remembering how that Yeshua says, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are Spirit and they are Life." I would suggest to begin first with the following: 1) Abstain from both physical fornication and mental-spiritual fornication of the heart and mind. 2) Abstain from eating physical blood of any kind in any amount. 3) Abstain from things having been sacrificed to idols such as including teachings found in the books of the wisdom of man, writings of man, cd's and lavish video productions of man, all of which so-called knowledge, (especially when it has a hefty price tag on it) glorifies the man or woman who wrote or produced it and is clearly and specifically aimed at acquiring some of those highly sought after $20-Spot All Seeing Eye of Horus US-Greenback Bucks from your wallet, (the recently popularized theme of "Four Bloody Moons" comes to mind, lol). 4) If one does the previous three things from Acts 15 then the same should already be well on his or her way to likewise abstaining from the "choked out" ones such as "Asmodeus the worst of demons", (re: Book of Tobit) or the two thousand swine having the Legion of demons which were cast out from the Girgashite man of the Gergesenos and were driven of the devils down the mountainside into the Sea and "choked out", (Mark 5:9-13). However if one refuse to cut these off from his midst then they will eventually choke out that man, (which is why they are devils, demons, or unclean spirits with their doctrines). What good is observing the feasts and holy days if these things are not first addressed? In the Parable of the Sower the same devils are the "thorns" which "choke out" the word from the adamah-soil of the heart of the one who hears the word but is overcome by "the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches", (Matthew 13:22). Thus "an eye for an eye" still applies in the supernal world because if you do not cut them off then they will eventually choke you out. You shall show them no mercy: "Soul for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot!" Chop! Chop!
Most Gentiles here are up to speed here... told to go back to kindergarten is an insult.
Most Gentiles here are up to speed here... told to go back to kindergarten is an insult.
No one, to my knowledge, has said at any point that Torah will not be taught from Jerusalem in the Messianic Age. What is known, however, is that there is and can never be any escaping the reality of how Torah progressed over time and what was taught in one age (Torah) will NOT be taught in another on all aspects (still Torah).IF Torah will be taught from Jerusalem in the messianic age , then why would anyone think that gentiles should be taught anything less now? Why only are gentiles to worship God in 7 ways and deprive them of all the blessings made for mankind?
Ancient Israel was acquainted with two classes of strangers, resident aliens and foreigners who considered their sojourn in the land more or less temporary. The latter were referred to as zarim (זָרִיםor nokhrim (נָכְרִים , terms generally applied to anyone outside the circle the writer had in view (e.g., Ex. 21:8; 29:33). They retained their ties to their original home and sought to maintain their former political or social status. On occasion they came as invaders (II Sam. 22:45–46; Obad. 11). More often they entered the land in the pursuit of trade and other commercial ventures. The usual laws were not applicable to them, and they were protected by folk traditions concerning the proper treatment of strangers (cf. Job 31:32) and by special conventions resulting from contractual arrangements between the Israelites and their neighbors (cf. I Kings 20:34). In the legislation of Deuteronomy, an Israelite may charge a foreigner usury though he may not do so to a fellow Israelite (Deut. 23:21), and the septennial remission of debts does not apply to the debts of foreigners (Deut. 15:3). On the other hand, barred from the cult (Ex. 12:43), the foreigner was also not bound by the ritual laws, and it was permissible to sell him animals that had died a natural death (Deut. 14:21). The fact that Deuteronomy includes a special prohibition against foreigners' ascending the throne (Deut. 17:15) and that Solomon specifically requested that God listen to their prayers (I Kings 8:41) may indicate the important position some foreigners occupied during the age of the monarchy.
In contrast with the foreigner, the ger (גֵּר, the resident alien, lived more or less permanently in his adopted community. Like the Arabic jār, he was "the protected stranger," who was totally dependent on his patrons for his well-being. As W.R. Smith noted, his status was an extension of that of the guest, whose person was inviolable, though he could not enjoy all the privileges of the native. He, in turn, was expected to be loyal to his protectors (Gen. 21:23) and to be bound by their laws (Num. 15:15–16). Prior to the Exodus, resident aliens as a class were unknown in Israel. On the contrary, the Israelites themselves were gerim (Ex. 22:20) as were their ancestors (Gen. 15:13; cf. 23:4; Ex. 2:22). Aliens were apparently attracted to their ranks when they left Egypt (Ex. 12:38, 48), and their numbers were further augmented during the time of the conquest of Canaan (Josh. 9:3ff.). By far the greatest number of gerim consisted of the earlier inhabitants of Canaan, many of whom were neither slain as Deuteronomy commands (cf. e.g., 7:2) nor reduced to total slavery (cf. I Kings 5:29; II Chron. 2:16–17). Immigrants also were numbered among them – foreigners who sought refuge in times of drought and famine (cf. Ruth 1:1) and refugees who fled before invading armies.
Very true - and I don't see how we can get past that if we're to deal honestly with how Israel defined itselfI agree with Jewish understanding here. Israel as a distinct set apart collective is called to keep and enforce their law in their land.
Gxg (G²);65510739 said:No one, to my knowledge, has said at any point that Torah will not be taught from Jerusalem in the Messianic Age. What is known, however, is that there is and can never be any escaping the reality of how Torah progressed over time and what was taught in one age (Torah) will NOT be taught in another on all aspects (still Torah).
To assume such would be a false scenario and imposing more on the Messianic Age than it actually speaks of - as well as assuming we know better than the Lord because He chose to do things differently than we'd like. There was never anything at any point saying that the Torah taught from Jerusalem was in accordance with the mindset of Gentiles doing everything that Hebrews did since the Mosaic Torah never advocated that in the first place - thus making it a matter of Gentiles never being taught to do "less" than what will occur in the future.
As said best elsewhere from Jewish Virtual Library (for brief excerpt):
We know that all of the landed property belonged to Israelites ( Lev. 25:2324) - and that the Gentiles present were largely day laborers and artisans (Deut. 24: 1415, Deuteronomy 29:10) - showing them to be those who were dependent (Ex. 23:12) and the Decalogue referred to them as "your stranger" ( Ex. 20:10, Deut. 5:14), showing how they were not equals in society according to Mosaic Code. It was because of the vulnerability foreigners had that the Israelites were reminded of how the Lord had concern for the weak (Ex. 22:2122 and Deut. 10:1719) and were not to harm them (Ex. 22:20) or abuse them (Deut. 24:14) - and in regards to the law and justice, they were to receive equal treatment before the law (Deut. 1:16, Deuteronomy 24:17-19) - the entire context of having "one standard for stranger and citizen alike" (Lev. 24:22).
And the special treatment of them was done in light of the background the Hebrews had coming out of Egypt themselves as foreigners (Lev. 19:34, Deut. 10:19) - and this was to be done for all.
Of course we see mixture occurring with Gentiles and Hebrews - as noted directly in Leviticus 24:10 when there was the example of an Israelite woman's son, whose father was an Egyptian, and who went out among the people of Israel harming his parents. The Egyptian father didn't deserve to be cursed alongside his Israelite wife - and the son himself was rebellious toward his parents, even though the Egyptian father could not be a member of the congregation, as, according to the subsequently promoted law (Deuteronomy 23:8), the descendant of an Egyptian could not be admitted till the third generation - and thus, he seemed to have committed two offenses which led up to his great crime.
Torah spoke of relationship with Gentiles in the Land of Israel (both those who left from Egypt with the Hebrews/were at the mountain...and those who came to live in Israel/Sojourn there as foreigners) - there were those who became voluntarily one with the People of Israel (like a Ruth the Moabite or a Rahab the Prostitute) and others who didn't but still had relationship with the Lord/did work with Israel (as with Jethro the Midianite Priest in Exodus 18/Exodus 2-3 or his brother-in-law Hobab son of Reuel in Numbers 10:28-36, who helped to guide the Israelites) ...and laws within the Torah were made explictly for both. Never did the Hebrews have room to think "Well, the Gentiles get away with LESS!!!" when the Lord said noted how laws given to Israel in the Torah do not necessarily apply to non-Jews as evident from Deuteronomy 14:21 when it says "Do not eat anything you find already dead. You may give it to an alien living in any of your towns, and he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner."
And there are many other laws besides that - Torah had sub-laws and differing categories - so if that was taught even in the time of Moses, then there's no reason to assume any less would be taught in the Messianic time.......nor would there be room to assume that what occurred with the Noahide Laws based on the sub-laws in the Torah were a matter of having "less blessing for Gentiles" since even the Lord knew that the instructions He gave for the variety of Gentiles in Israel were a matter of blessing for them.
And as it is, we don't say there's "less of a blessing" because we're not taught on the provisions for a man having Two or more wives - or how to handle slaves - because what was taught in the Mosaic Code is not what will be taught in the Messianic Age when those things are no longer present...
As noted in #75 and #79, it is the case that Israel itself (during the Messianic age) will be akin to an Empire ruling the world with other vassal nations it works alongside who will support it - Gentiles present in those nations and following the Lord, just as there will be Gentiles within Israel akin to the Physical Israelites (when they identify fully) - but there will be variation. Just as King Solomon's kingdom did trade/connections with nations all round it (I Kings 5:12 being a prime example) and wisdom was shared from all over the world (I Kings 4) while Israel had a GLOBAL reach in its kingdom, so it'll be with Israel. The Law of God that Israel was given by the Lord will be the dominant rule gone by globally in the Millenial Kingdom - the way we treat our neighbors and walking in love for Messiah being what matters above all else - but as it concerns different cultural expressions and dress, that will still vary in the times to come. It will be in many ways like the Persian Empire in its diversity (as Daniel and Esther experienced) - or tributary systems.
If you do not see Acts 15 Jerusalem Council as a starting point for Gentiles entering into the synagogue, then the "kindergarten" comment wouldn't make sense. I do see Jerusalem council to be as a beginning for the doors to be open for Gentiles to enter in.Thank you for your insight although I never mentioned kindergarten. However, what may be kindergarten to one person can mean the whole of "salvation" to another as we have recently learned. And whether it was rhetorical or not someone else besides yourself put forth several questions. And whether my response to his questions was rhetorical or not it was not addressed to anyone but he to whom I responded. I sincerely hope he was not insulted by my response because it was absolutely not intended to be insulting. But then again it seems most everyone else is insulted simply by my presence most of the time around here anyways so it really is no surprise to me if you *feel* insulted for some strange reason.
If you do not see Acts 15 Jerusalem Council as a starting point for Gentiles entering into the synagogue, then the "kindergarten" comment wouldn't make sense. I do see Jerusalem council to be as a beginning for the doors to be open for Gentiles to enter in.
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