Duel Covenant theology

[visionary]

"Dual Covenant" is a term for those who believe that there are separate covenants between God and the Jews and God and the Gentiles. Those that think this way will often follow that line of thinking and say either stay in a christian church of your choice or that the Gentiles who wish to align with them should follow either just "the ten commandments" (and not even all of them) or the so-called "Noachide laws" that Judaism has taught is for Gentiles. What is sad is that it is being taught even within Messianic Judaism camps. According to Judaism, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come. By the way, Gentiles who become Noahiders must also give up their faith in Yeshua. So for all Messianic believers in Yeshua, Noahide faith is not the direction any MJ believer should ever direct anyone, Jew or Gentile into believing.

"The false, rebellious message of Jesus has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Unfortunately, however, this same message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world; today, over 1.5 billion gentiles believe in Jesus. These lost souls mistakenly think they have found salvation in Jesus; tragically, they are in for a rude awakening. Truth and eternal life are found directly from G-d, through performing His Law. Any "mediator" only separates man from G-d." http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm

 

[annier]

"Dual Covenant" is a term for those who believe that there are separate covenants between God and the Jews and God and the Gentiles. Those that think this way will often follow that line of thinking and say either stay in a christian church of your choice or that the Gentiles who wish to align with them should follow either just "the ten commandments" (and not even all of them) or the so-called "Noachide laws" that Judaism has taught is for Gentiles. What is sad is that it is being taught even within Messianic Judaism camps.

Why is the concept of God fearing Gentiles as Noachides, a sad thing being taught by Messianics?

According to Judaism, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come. By the way, Gentiles who become Noahiders must also give up their faith in Yeshua.

But not in messianic teachings of Noachide, which makes your first statement above puzzling, as well as your next below.

So for all Messianic believers in Yeshua, Noahide faith is not the direction any MJ believer should ever direct anyone, Jew or Gentile into believing.

Let me get this straight, because unbelieving Judaism teaches that noachides must give up their faith in Jesus, believing Jews cannot accept God fearing Gentiles as believers?

"The false, rebellious message of Jesus has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Unfortunately, however, this same message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world; today, over 1.5 billion gentiles believe in Jesus. These lost souls mistakenly think they have found salvation in Jesus; tragically, they are in for a rude awakening. Truth and eternal life are found directly from G-d, through performing His Law. Any "mediator" only separates man from G-d." Who Was Jesus?

I do not understand why Messianics can teach judaism but teach it according to Christ, but not the jewish concept of Noachide according to Christ. You really puzzle me here.

 

[visionary]

Why is the concept of God fearing Gentiles as Noachides, a sad thing being taught by Messianics?

But not in messianic teachings of Noachide, which makes your first statement above puzzling, as well as your next below.

Let me get this straight, because unbelieving Judaism teaches that noachides must give up their faith in Jesus, believing Jews cannot accept God fearing Gentiles as believers?

I do not understand why Messianics can teach judaism but teach it according to Christ, but not the jewish concept of Noachide according to Christ. You really puzzle me here.

Why is the concept of God fearing Gentiles as noahides a sad thing. Noahides are not to believe in Yeshua as their savior. That is the sad thing.

UMJC promote Noahide for Gentiles. UMNC are considered messianic thus it is a teaching within the Messianic community. There are those who are believing and non believing Jews who have a place for God fearing Gentiles, even those who accept Yeshua as their savior and it is the designated Noahide spot or the Christian church.

What is a Jewish concept of Noahide that Yeshua would agree with? Remember Noahides are not to believe in Yeshua. I can not see Yeshua agreeing that Gentiles must deny Judaism and Yeshua because that is the spot the Jews have designated for them besides the Christian Churches.

Here are some interesting concepts that go along with this theology of duel covenants.

Jewish repentance is not the same as repentance for Gentiles. Human sin is never merely the sin of the creature against the Creator-Consummator. Human sin is also always the sin of Jew and Gentile, of Israel and the nations.

This insight has profound implications for our understanding of Jewish repentance. If departure from Torah living is the measure of sin, should not a return to the paths of Torah be a sign of repentance? To me sin is sin, regardless of the individual involved being Jew or Gentile.

-Stuart Dauermann
“Chapter 7: Messianic Jewish Outreach” (pg 95)
quoting R. Kendall Soulen, “The Grammar of the Christian Story” and “The God of Israel and Christian Theology”

 

[annier]

Why is the concept of God fearing Gentiles as noahides a sad thing. Noahides are not to believe in Yeshua as their savior. That is the sad thing.

I have never heard that from Messianics. Please provide proof Messianics teach Noachides not to believe Jesus is their Saviour.

UMJC promote Noahide for Gentiles, and they are considered messianic thus it is a teaching within the Messianic community.

Please provide proof UMJC teaches Noachides ar not to accept Jesus as their saviour.

There are those who are believing and non believing Jews who have a place for God fearing Gentiles, even those who accept Yeshua as their savior and it is the designated Noahide spot or the Christian church.

You just said twice, that messianics teach Noachides cannot believe Jesus is their Saviour. Now you are saying they do accept Noachides in Christ.

What is a Jewish concept of Noahide that Yeshua would agree with? Remember Noahides are not to believe in Yeshua.

Please do prove your accusations here.....You also appear to say something totally different just above??????

Here are some interesting concepts that go along with this theology of duel covenants.

This insight has profound implications for our understanding of Jewish repentance. If departure from Torah living is the measure of Jewish sin, should not a return to the paths of Torah be a sign of Jewish repentance?

-Stuart Dauermann
“Chapter 7: Messianic Jewish Outreach” (pg 95)
quoting R. Kendall Soulen, “The Grammar of the Christian Story” and “The God of Israel and Christian Theology”

I have some questions I would like to ask you as well. But first, please provide proof the Umjc, and other messianics teach Noachides cannot believe Jesus is their saviour.

 

[visionary]

I have never heard that from Messianics. Please provide proof Messianics teach Noachides not to believe Jesus is their Saviour.

It is Noahides that teach that it is against their laws to believe in Yeshua/Jesus.

Please provide proof UMJC teaches Noachides ar not to accept Jesus as their saviour.

do you not know anything about Noahides??

You just said twice, that messianics teach Noachides cannot believe Jesus is their Saviour. Now you are saying they do accept Noachides in Christ.

UMJC direct Gentiles to Noahides. Noahides teach it is against their laws to believe in Yeshua.

Please do prove your accusations here.....You also appear to say something totally different just above??????

Does the UMJC Practice Conversion?
An Official Paper of the UMJC

The issue is not whether Gentiles should or must become Jews to attain full status in the Body of Messiah. All Messianic Jews agree this issue was settled by the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem in C.E. 49 (Acts 15). Believers from among the nations were not required to accept the yoke of the Torah, but only the basic biblical principles referred to as the Seven Laws of Noah in the rabbinic literature. The issue is whether or not it should be possible for willing Gentile believers to identify more closely with the Jewish people by voluntarily converting to Messianic or some other expression of Judaism.

http://www.umjc.org/home-mainmenu-1...umjc-faq/21-does-the-umjc-practice-conversion

I have some questions I would like to ask you as well. But first, please provide proof the Umjc, and other messianics teach Noachides cannot believe Jesus is their saviour.

Now to a Noahide website for what they teach. Who Was Jesus?
That you can read on what they think of Yeshua/Jesus and you will see from this, that there have been those who after discovering Jesus is Yeshua, that it is still not acceptable.. www.covenantofnoah.com/ben_noah_messiah.htm
It is rule 6 that applies to having the faith in Yeshua.

The Noachide commandment of "justice" primarily means teaching one's neighbors, friends, associates, etc., the details of the Noachide code, and that G-d sees and hears everything, rewarding every good deed and punishing every sin. This means outreach. Noachides must turn Christians away from their idolatry and their disregard of G-d's Law, and must bring all gentiles to a full acceptance of G-d's Law, including the oral Torah and the complete authority of the orthodox rabbis. This will quickly revolutionize our society, restoring morality, respect for authority, and the fear of G-d throughout the land. Similar efforts, of course, must also be extended to foreign countries.

http://www.noahide.com/minimum.htm
They state that members reject Yeshua/Jesus QCHU - QEHILAT CHASIDI HA-UMOT
What is noahides objective? Establish a Righteous Judicial System AskNoah International for living the Noahide Code
The Law that applies to believing in Yeshua/Jesus.... no idolatry – Prohibits the worship of any human or any created thing. Also prohibited is the making of idols and involvement with the occult. This necessitates an understanding of the One G-d of Israel and His nature. http://www.noahide.org/?p=274
and included in that last website is this statement.

A functioning judicial system corresponds to malchut, the lowest sefira, which rules in supremacy but is selflessly devoted to public service. This is the responsibility of good government. Our sages state, “War comes to the world through the delay of justice, the perversion of justice, and the teaching of Torah not in accordance with Jewish Law”. (Avot 5:8) When both Jews and non-Jews can learn Torah without distortion of its halachic (Jewish legal) meaning, true peace becomes possible. This includes recognition of the principle that Jews can be judged only according to Torah law, no matter where in the world, and that non-Jews in Eretz Yisrael are considered according to the Seven Noahide Laws by the Jews there, with no sovereign jurisdiction of their own.

In the news
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/90646#.UwC0bWJdUYM
Sanhedrin Moves to Establish Council For Noahides

By the way ... what is the penalty for disobeying the Noahide laws if Noahides Judicial powers get teeth? The penalty for violating any of these Noahide Laws is spelled out on page 1192 of the Encyclopedia Judaica, "... violation of any one of the seven laws subjects the Noahide to capital punishment by decapitation."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/90646#.UwC0bWJdUYM

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira suspected of incitement against non-Jews

Yitzhar rabbi arrested on suspicion of incitement to violence against non-Jews after his book, 'Torat Hamelech' says, 'There's no prohibition against killing gentile who violated Laws of Noah'

Jerusalem Court for Issues of Bnei Noah
The Jerusalem Court for Issues of Bnei Noah has been working with Noahide around the world. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/2105#.UwDBMmJdUYN

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Where does UMJC say that Noahide are to denounce Yeshua?

 

[visionary]

Now returning to OP.... the duel covenants... within Messianic Judaism

Dual covenant theology is an attempt to assert that the "new covenant" established by Yeshua was and is specifically for the Gentile nations (who, until then, had been without a covenant relationship with God but who now have just the Jerusalem Council of Acts, a prelude to the seven laws), while, for the Jews, the way of salvation is by remaining faithful to God's revelation in Judaism (Torah, Moses, Yeshua).

Yeshua lived as a Jew faithful to the Torah of God and taught his apostles to do the same

Matthew 5:17-20
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

then it seems today's followers of Yeshua ought to also affirm the continued place of the Torah as "the inheritance of the assembly of Jacob."

Deuteronomy 33:4
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
4 the Torah Moshe commanded us
as an inheritance for the community of Ya‘akov.

And Paul was able to say about unbelieving Israel,

Rom 9:4-5 "to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever"

then today we should strive to affirm the enduring nature of God's covenants with not only the Jewish people but the adopted also

Isaiah 44:4-6
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
4 They will spring up among the grass like willows on the riverbanks. 5 One will say, ‘I belong to Adonai.’ Another will be called by the name of Ya‘akov. Yet another will write that he belongs to Adonai. and adopt the surname Isra’el.” 6 Thus says Adonai, Isra’el’s King and Redeemer, Adonai-Tzva’ot: “I am the first, and I am the last; besides me there is no God.

and as Paul said

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

It is all nations inheritance

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[visionary]

Where does UMJC say that Noahide are to denounce Yeshua?

It is not UNJC right to dictate what Noahides believe or denounce.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Now returning to OP.... the duel covenants... within Messianic Judaism

Dual covenant theology is an attempt to assert that the "new covenant" established by Yeshua was and is specifically for the Gentile nations (who, until then, had been without a covenant relationship with God but who now have just the Jerusalem Council of Acts, a prelude to the seven laws), while, for the Jews, the way of salvation is by remaining faithful to God's revelation in Judaism (Torah, Moses, Yeshua).

Yeshua lived as a Jew faithful to the Torah of God and taught his apostles to do the same then it seems today's followers of Yeshua ought to also affirm the continued place of the Torah as "the inheritance of the assembly of Jacob." And Paul was able to say about unbelieving Israel, then today we should strive to affirm the enduring nature of God's covenants with not only the Jewish people but the adopted also and as Paul said It is all nations inheritance

The Isaiah 44 text in context refers to the children of Israel. Is doesn't pertain to non Jews.

 

[visionary]

The Isaiah 44 text in context refers to the children of Israel. Is doesn't pertain to non Jews.

Are the adopted included in the promise?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

"Dual Covenant" is a term for those who believe that there are separate covenants between God and the Jews and God and the Gentiles. Those that think this way will often follow that line of thinking and say either stay in a christian church of your choice or that the Gentiles who wish to align with them should follow either just "the ten commandments" (and not even all of them) or the so-called "Noachide laws" that Judaism has taught is for Gentiles. What is sad is that it is being taught even within Messianic Judaism camps. According to Judaism, any non-Jew who adheres to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come. By the way, Gentiles who become Noahiders must also give up their faith in Yeshua. So for all Messianic believers in Yeshua, Noahide faith is not the direction any MJ believer should ever direct anyone, Jew or Gentile into believing.

"The false, rebellious message of Jesus has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Unfortunately, however, this same message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world; today, over 1.5 billion gentiles believe in Jesus. These lost souls mistakenly think they have found salvation in Jesus; tragically, they are in for a rude awakening. Truth and eternal life are found directly from G-d, through performing His Law. Any "mediator" only separates man from G-d." Who Was Jesus?

The Noahide Laws were the first to be instituted at the Jerusalem Council on gentile converts to Christianity. they did not have to become converts to Judaism. Acts 15:1-29

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

 

[annier]

Where does UMJC say that Noahide are to denounce Yeshua?

Vis, has yet to answer this.....

 

[aniello]

Vis, has yet to answer this.....

It is not UNJC right to dictate what Noahides believe or denounce.

Viz's reply is more than sufficient.

 

[visionary]

The Noahide Laws were the first to be instituted at the Jerusalem Council on gentile converts to Christianity. they did not have to become converts to Judaism. Acts 15:1-29

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

And thus does a duel covenant believer states his premise... which is why we have this thread... thank you for coming forward..

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

And thus does a duel covenant believer states his premise... which is why we have this thread... thank you for coming forward..

Be specific which covenant.

 

[visionary]

Be specific which covenant.

As it is
Moses covenant for Jews
Noahide covenant for Gentiles

Makes for a "duel covenant"

I am voting for One new covenant in Him in which there are no Jews and Gentiles because we are all one in Him. We are all to be His people who have received the Mount Sinai Covenant bathed in His blood, serviced by Him, and held in continuing service in the Heavenly sanctuary until He has completed the High Priest sanctuary services... until heaven and earth pass away.

 

[annier]

As it is
Moses covenant for Jews
Noahide covenant for Gentiles

Makes for a "duel covenant"

I am voting for One new covenant in Him in which there are no Jews and Gentiles because we are all one in Him. We are all to be His people who have received the Mount Sinai Covenant bathed in His blood, serviced by Him, and held in continuing service in the Heavenly sanctuary until He has completed the High Priest sanctuary services... until heaven and earth pass away.

He has already sat down Vis. He has finished the work his father sent him to do
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[annier]

Viz's reply is more than sufficient.

Not for me it isn't.
She keeps bringing what unbelieving Judaism teaches into it. If that were a consideration, then so too would be Judaism itself, could not believe in Jesus. Yet this forum is it's own legitimate Judaism. Why not the same concerning Noachide in this form of Judaism?

 

[visionary]

He has already sat down Vis. He has finished the work his father sent him to do
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Yom Kippur has not been fulfilled as a feast, and He will be performing the High Priest duties before His Heavenly Father. I think "when" is key to that verse. There is no evidence that the sanctuary in heaven has been cleansed of the sin issue as our prayers of repentance are still daily coming into the heavenly sanctuary.

 

[annier]

Yom Kippur has not been fulfilled as a feast, and He will be performing the High Priest duties before His Heavenly Father. I think "when" is key to that verse. There is no evidence that the sanctuary in heaven has been cleansed of the sin issue as our prayers of repentance are still daily coming into the heavenly sanctuary.

Are you denying he has atoned for our sins vis?