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Duel Covenant theology

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Feb 15, 2014.

  1. annier

    annier Guest

    Then you also believe the entire law was written on the tablets of Moses?
  2. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    United States
    Isaiah 56

    New International Version (NIV)

    Salvation for Others

    56 This is what the Lord says:

    “Maintain justice
    and do what is right,
    for my salvation is close at hand
    and my righteousness will soon be revealed.

    Blessed is the one who does this—
    the person who holds it fast,
    who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it,
    and keeps their hands from doing any evil.”

    Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say,
    “The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.”

    And let no eunuch complain,
    “I am only a dry tree.”

    4 For this is what the Lord says:

    “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
    who choose what pleases me
    and hold fast to my covenant—

    to them I will give within my temple and its walls
    a memorial and a name
    better than sons and daughters;
    I will give them an everlasting name
    that will endure forever.

    And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
    to minister to him,
    to love the name of (the Lord-Yahuah),
    and to be his servants,
    all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
    and who hold fast to my covenant(The moral laws of God are part of the covenant.)—

    these I will bring to my holy mountain
    and give them joy in my house of prayer.
    Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
    will be accepted on my altar;
    for my house will be called
    a house of prayer for all nations.”

    The Sovereign Lord declares—
    he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
    “I will gather still others to them
    besides those already gathered.”
  3. annier

    annier Guest

    Wow sounds like Hebrews......
    Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
    4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
    5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
    6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was}
    7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
    8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
    9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {rest: or, keeping of a sabbath}
    10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
    14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2014
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Ten written in stone by God's own hand, the rest written on parchment by Moses.
  5. annier

    annier Guest

    De 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

    Originally Posted by visionary [​IMG]
    He didn't confine it to just the Israelites. All who came to the foot of the mountain, Israelites and multitude were equally blessed to hear God speak to them. Even the Talmud says it was spoken in 70 languages so that all the world heard.
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

  7. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    United States
    God wrote ten commands on stone, later Moses added other moral commands from God.
  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Name one moral command that Moses added that is not a reiteration of one of the commands God wrote.
  9. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

    United States
    Leviticus 18:23
    “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
  10. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

    I'm just saying, the vast majority of people who have ever lived have never heard of or even had the chance to hear the Torah, Noachide law or the name Yeshua/Jesus etc.

    There is no evidence the Cherokee, Maori, Sami, Vikings or Mongols etc ever heard of any such thing before the Protestants or Catholics revealed their diluted versions of these things (Catholic and Protestant Bibles) to them.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
  11. tooldtocare

    tooldtocare Active Member Supporter

    The Promised Land ain't "Israel".
    Israel was a man, not a place while some want to fool you into thinking otherwise. It is clearly laid out in
    Israel God's forbidden place
    Ok it is a confusing site but Israel be a man NOT a place\believe it or not

    Why it says "Israel God's Forbidden place" is beyond me. The sit never says this, period and nor does the title say this
  12. LilLamb219

    LilLamb219 The Lamb is gone Supporter


    Closed for review

    A quick thread clean has been done...so carry on :)

    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
  13. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

    In Relationship

    Vissy's right. If someone is thinking of becoming B'nei Noach, they must renounce any belief they might have in Yeshua. She's also correct that many MJ teachers (who are really only Hebrew Roots teachers, thinking the term "Messianic Judaism" will get more and better attention) attempt to teach the Noahide Laws rather than Torah. Swimming in the "Messianic Jewish" waters can be tricky if you're not familiar with the Torah.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2014
  14. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

    In Relationship
    Simply because B'nei Noach DOESN'T believe in the Son of God! There's no difficulty there. Google it, you'll find yoursef happily busy for a day or two going from website to website.
  15. annier

    annier Guest

    They certainly believed as scripture tells us. Paul encountered them at the Synagogues all the time and many believed, just as many Jews believed.
  16. annier

    annier Guest

    Which light? A lesser light, or the greater light.
    If Torah does not include all the promises made in Abraham, those promises become worthless to the nations.
    It does appear that an excelling glory can make the lesser glory seem as no glory at all.

    2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

    I think we see an example of this idea here...
    Nu 16:3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much <07227> upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?
    Num 16:9 Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation to minister unto them?

    Nu 16:10 And he hath brought thee near to him, and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee: and seek ye the priesthood also?
    I believe a closer look at Apostolic teaching on God fearing Gentiles, is in order here. Rabbinic teaching does not always teach correct things.

    Isa 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
    Eze 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
    1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

    Noah is listed along with Abraham....... as one which DIED IN FAITH

    Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

    Noah is AN HEIR included here along with Able, Abraham, Isaac etc....

    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
    Apostolic Christian teaching (aka Messianic judaism) includes God fearing sons of Noah.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2014
  17. annier

    annier Guest

    Googled it....
    Excerpt from umjc, arm of the mjaa (Messianic Jewish alliance of America)

    ONE LAW MOVEMENTS A Challenge to the Messianic Jewish Community
    By Daniel Juster and Russ Resnik

    By the time of Yeshua, an interpretative tradition was developing concerning the requirements forGentiles. These later became formulated as the Noahide laws, binding on all people and rooted in the covenant with Noah. Already in the first century, Judaism made a distinction between universal requirements and requirements that were the particular responsibility of Jews.
    Torah itself makes it clear that the Law has different applications for different groups. For example, purity laws and requirements for priests were different than purity laws for other Israelites. There were laws for men and laws for women, laws for widows, children, and so on. The Torah is not one homogenous whole, but is filled with diversity. Only as each group fulfilled its own destiny in Torah (men and women, for example) could there be true unity in the nation. Likewise, unity of Jew and Gentile does not require that there be one set of commandments for both, but that each group fulfill its own identity and destiny(1Cor. 7:17-20).

    Dr. Daniel Juster is Director of Tikkun Ministries International.
    Russ Resnik is Executive Director of the
    Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2014
  18. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    So how do they interpret the "one law for both Jew and Gentile"?
  19. etZion

    etZion A Dirty Gentile

    Without context, your question is pointless... I don't know what you are asking.

    The Torah does include them, in fact, many of the promises of Abraham are not even seen until the covenant made at Mount Sinai and the Torah given and even more promises will be seen until the New Covenant is finalized.

    I am not sure why you think this addresses the point I made, maybe you can be more clear?

    God fearing gentiles, in the 1st century, were also at times god fearing of many god's, they simply were respecters of gods, so they also respected the Jewish God, among their other gods. That is not saying much, and it does not deal with the relational aspect of being in covenant with God.

    Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. But this does not mean that everyone is, or even those who adhere to a noachide law. Many gentiles in this world keep inline with a Noahide Law, and yet do not even trust in God. There is no real relationship there, because the Noahide Law does not require any relationship with God, there is no commandment to love God. Humanity already keeps those Laws for the most part to one extent or another and do not even believe in God.

    According to Paul, we are not considered sons of Noah, but instead Abraham, as the promises state.

    By the way, I have never heard of "Apostolic Christian teaching"... Do you just make up terms?
  20. HannibalFlavius

    HannibalFlavius Well-Known Member

    It is a very sad thing to try and halt a persons evolution in his walk with God. To teach gentiles that they have no chance of being family is sad.

    The good news of Christ is that gentiles can also be heirs, and even put on crowns.

    Why would somebody teach people to stay in the outer court and not move on?

    Why would somebody try and teach a gentile that he has no hope of becoming an overcomer?

    To teach a dual covenant is trying to snatch the possibility of reward right from under the feet of those who believe this.

    You have to take a position that makes God a racist of all things.

    You have to take the position that your literal blood makes or breaks you.

    A Gentile who refuses to endeavor to become a true Jew and true Israel is a gentile who has no hope in the first resurrection.

    The idea doesn't take salvation away, but it certainly takes away any thoughts of being in the first resurrection at first fruits.

    Only Israel obtains that reward, overcomers who are true Jews.

    So this is telling somebody to not even try, don't even run the race because you are not invited.

    Sorry for this long post, but I am really having a hard time with people who tell gentiles to look to Noahide.

    How does this idea not take away everything Jesus came to do?

    To tell a gentile that he has no part in the Passover, no part in Shavuot, no part in Yom Kippor, no part in Sukkot?

    That IS, in fact what the idea suggests.

    It takes away the whole idea of adoption, the whole idea of making one man out of two men.

    It takes away the whole Idea that your body is a temple and the spirit of the Lord is within you, this could not possibly be true is a gentile cannot become Israel.

    It takes away any mention of a gentile being the bride of Christ, because to marry a man is to become one with that man, but then you wouldn't be a temple in order to hold, said man.

    I think its sad because of the fact that it constructs and builds a wall that had been ripped in two, and any symbolism that this comes with.

    There is no coming boldly to the throne of grace for a gentile.

    Certainly there can be no priesthood for a gentile, no nothing.

    It takes away all the missions of Christ.

    You are simply telling a gentile that he can never move from the outer court into the Holy place.

    There is no 7 spirits for him.

    But when they come to measure the Holy place, and the Holy of Holies, they count the people in these two places, and the people in the outer court are not counted.

    When the temple is measured, there will be no Stranger counted, and no stranger will receive the spirit or partake in the first resurrection.

    It's the same in Revelation as it is in Zechariah.

    There will be no gentiles there.

    Zech 14.

    20On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.