Duel Covenant theology

visionary

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Not for me it isn't.
She keeps bringing what unbelieving Judaism teaches into it. If that were a consideration, then so too would be Judaism itself, could not believe in Jesus. Yet this forum is it's own legitimate Judaism. Why not the same concerning Noachide in this form of Judaism?
I see what you are saying, but truth be told, the only reason Noahide is brought into this discussion is because it is the portion Gentiles are given even if they do not join the Noahide faith. It is that part of the "duel covenant" that is called into question. Messianic Judaism should be a united front on one covenant for all its members.
 
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annier

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I see what you are saying,
Fantastic! This is good, at least we can find some common ground to go on.
but truth be told, the only reason Noahide is brought into this discussion is because it is the portion Gentiles are given even if they do not join the Noahide faith.
You will have to be a little clearer here for me to understand what you are saying Vis. I will try and give you my understanding in response below. As hoping this will give you an indication of what I need from you to understand you :)
It is that part of the "duel covenant" that is called into question. Messianic Judaism should be a united front on one covenant for all its members.
All it's members include Noachides. We are all one in Christ, and in one new covenant in Christ. Because entry into covenant (salvation) is by faith, not works.
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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I see what you are saying, but truth be told, the only reason Noahide is brought into this discussion is because it is the portion Gentiles are given even if they do not join the Noahide faith. It is that part of the "duel covenant" that is called into question. Messianic Judaism should be a united front on one covenant for all its members.

Which covenant? the New Covenant(redemption of all human kind)?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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And thus does a duel covenant believer states his premise... which is why we have this thread... :wave: thank you for coming forward..

No. BOTH Jew AND Gentile, no matter what, must have Yeshua's atonement. Since as Peter said, why put a yoke on the neck of Gentiles that we ourselves can NOT fulfill!
 
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Yahudim

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Shalom Yeshua,

First and foremost, the concept of noahide laws is not even mentioned in the ancient writings. It's non-extant form do not even appear until 1100 years after the council of Yerushalayim. So the suggestion that Acts 15 makes reference to the noahide laws, an artifice of the rabbinate, is anachronistic and beyond tenuous.

The suggestion that Torah is a unbearable yoke is directly contrary to Deuteronomy 30:11-18
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

(LY: vi) 11 For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach. 12 It isn’t in the sky, so that you need to ask, ‘Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?’ 13 Likewise, it isn’t beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, ‘Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?’ 14 On the contrary, the word is very close to you — in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!

(RY: iv, LY: vii) 15 “Look! I am presenting you today with, on the one hand, life and good; and on the other, death and evil — 16 in that I am ordering you today to love Adonai your God, to follow his ways, and to obey his mitzvot, regulations and rulings ; for if you do, you will live and increase your numbers; and Adonai your God will bless you in the land you are entering in order to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, if you refuse to listen, if you are drawn away to prostrate yourselves before other gods and serve them; (LY: Maftir) 18 I am announcing to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not live long in the land you are crossing the Yarden to enter and possess.


Perhaps you missed the pronouncement of Messiah Y'shua in Matt 23 where He said: "But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act! 4 They tie heavy loads onto people’s shoulders but won’t lift a finger to help carry them." Clearly, the heavy yoke is the artifice of the traditions of the Elders of Israel. Torah, a yoke that cannot be born?! The Father disagrees. I would carefully consider how you characterize the Revelation of the Father. Be careful what you lay at His feet!

The Noahide Laws were the first to be instituted at the Jerusalem Council on gentile converts to Christianity. they did not have to become converts to Judaism. Acts 15:1-29

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

No. BOTH Jew AND Gentile, no matter what, must have Yeshua's atonement. Since as Peter said, why put a yoke on the neck of Gentiles that we ourselves can NOT fulfill!
 
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CherubRam

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Same covenant, same laws. If there were a separate covenant or laws in the New Covenant it would have been mentioned.

Isaiah 56:3
Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.” And let no eunuch complain, “I am only a dry tree.”
 
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Yahudim

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Well said! :thumbsup:
Same covenant, same laws. If there were a separate covenant or laws in the New Covenant it would have been mentioned.

Isaiah 56:3
Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.” And let no eunuch complain, “I am only a dry tree.”
 
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HannibalFlavius

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I don't understand a duel covenant because it is trying to apply earthly things with heavenly things.

There is only one spirit and it is neither Jew or Gentile.


Here is a covenant~~~Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus

Is this a promise to only Jews?

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?


Does this only apply to Jews?

21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.


Only to Jews?
24A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

If a Gentile follows Christ and is then able to sit in judgment against the tribes of Israel, then how is being Israel a benefit?





The seed of the spirit is not Gentile or Jew, and there is only one spirit.



You were given a seed as if a God came down and put a light in your heart.


If you go your own way, and bury the seed in the ground without growing it, then that seed is going to be taken from you whether you are a Jew or a Gentile.

It will be given to those who were given a seed, and grew that seed.

How does one grow the seed of God?



And how does one apply Gentile or Jew to the seed of God?



How does this apply to a Jew or a Gentile?
2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.


When one is baptized rising from the water as a new creature, is the creature Jew or Gentile?

Or does somebody think they can apply the New Creature to flesh and blood?



Does this only apply to the Jew?

The Fulfillment of the Law

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


If there is to be 2 covenants for two separate people, then shouldn't we make a list where Jesus is just speaking to the Jew and the reward he can obtain verses what Jesus promises to the gentile, and the rewards he cannot obtain because he is a gentile?


Is the promise of an incorruptible covering of Sukkot only for the Jew?


Is the promise of Rosh Hashanah only for the Jew?


Who are those who get married on Rosh Hashanah for the marriage supper of the lamb?


If there is a difference of Jew and Gentile, then why should a Gentile think he has a part in the Marriage supper of the lamb?

Why should a Gentile think he can become the bride of Christ?

I mean, if Rosh Hashanah and its promises is only for the Jew, then the Gentile has no part in the marriage supper.






What gets me the most, is the thought of there being a difference between Gentile and Jew in the kingdom of heaven.


I mean that if there is a difference, then why should the Gentile even try?

If there are two standards by which to judge two peoples, the one is already doomed from jump street.


When this world has ended and all the sons of God have entered into the Kingdom, will there really be a difference between Jew and Gentile?


If there is a difference here, then it would only point to a different outcome for two different types of blood in the resurrection, and there is no difference of blood.

Should somebody really tell a Gentile that what applies to the Jew does not apply to the Gentile and so the gentile doesn't even try?


When somebody becomes a new creature in Christ as a child who comes to the Lord, should it be told to that Gentile that he is still a gentile, and so the rules apply to him different causing the gentile to stumble?
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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HannibalFlavius said:
If a Gentile follows Christ and is then able to sit in judgment against the tribes of Israel, then how is being Israel a benefit?

He's referring to the Jewish Apostle's not non Jews.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Shalom Yeshua,

First and foremost, the concept of noahide laws is not even mentioned in the ancient writings. It's non-extant form do not even appear until 1100 years after the council of Yerushalayim. So the suggestion that Acts 15 makes reference to the noahide laws, an artifice of the rabbinate, is anachronistic and beyond tenuous.

The suggestion that Torah is a unbearable yoke is directly contrary to Deuteronomy 30:11-18
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

(LY: vi) 11 For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach. 12 It isn’t in the sky, so that you need to ask, ‘Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?’ 13 Likewise, it isn’t beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, ‘Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?’ 14 On the contrary, the word is very close to you — in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!

(RY: iv, LY: vii) 15 “Look! I am presenting you today with, on the one hand, life and good; and on the other, death and evil — 16 in that I am ordering you today to love Adonai your God, to follow his ways, and to obey his mitzvot, regulations and rulings ; for if you do, you will live and increase your numbers; and Adonai your God will bless you in the land you are entering in order to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, if you refuse to listen, if you are drawn away to prostrate yourselves before other gods and serve them; (LY: Maftir) 18 I am announcing to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not live long in the land you are crossing the Yarden to enter and possess.


Perhaps you missed the pronouncement of Messiah Y'shua in Matt 23 where He said: "But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act! 4 They tie heavy loads onto people’s shoulders but won’t lift a finger to help carry them." Clearly, the heavy yoke is the artifice of the traditions of the Elders of Israel. Torah, a yoke that cannot be born?! The Father disagrees. I would carefully consider how you characterize the Revelation of the Father. Be careful what you lay at His feet!

Shalom!
Trying to follow Torah will not save you or anyone else since nobody can follow it completely. All sin. That does not mean you should not try. As I said, only in Yeshua do we ALL have salvation, Jew and gentile. Yeshua's "commandments are specific as Torah, love The Almighty and love your neighbor as yourself...on these 2 hang all the Law and the prophets.
 
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Yahudim

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Shalom shalom,

Yes,Torah points to sin. We would have no way of knowing what sin is without Torah. Not trying to keep the mitzvot will get you, "Depart from me worker of lawlessness." That's not salvation.

That's what make forgiveness of sin so wonderful! But again, that doesn't come without knowing what sin is, confessing it, repenting of it, making compensation for those we harmed and asking for forgiveness. All this with the knowledge that in the Messianic Kingdom and in the Judgement, Torah is the law we will be judged by and mercy is the promise for all those that turn back to Him and His ways.

Love God and love your neighbor are very well defined in Torah. It doesn't just start and end with the warm and fuzzies. There are specific steps given for us to follow to demonstrate our sincerity in both categories. The office of the prophet is to stand in the breach and point the way back - to Torah.
Shalom!
Trying to follow Torah will not save you or anyone else since nobody can follow it completely. All sin. That does not mean you should not try. As I said, only in Yeshua do we ALL have salvation, Jew and gentile. Yeshua's "commandments are specific as Torah, love The Almighty and love your neighbor as yourself...on these 2 hang all the Law and the prophets.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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He's referring to the Jewish Apostle's not non Jews.

That's my point, why should a Gentile follow Christ if there is no point?


24A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.



Should a Gentile not be a servant, and if he forsakes all his desires of the world, to follow in the same footsteps of Christ, shouldn't he be considered the true family of Christ?

What good would it do from your standpoint?

Is it just for Jews to become servants?

If they can receive the reward by following Christ's instructions, and then it means that gentile has no such reward, and so the gentile goes on his way thinking that he can live like a king, not worry about sin, and what will he say when he stands before God?


'' I was told that none of those things applied to me, so how can you judge me?''


Is it really wise to make someone think that they have no responsibility, no reward?


I am still not seeing what flesh and blood have to do with doing good works, and obtaining the rewards of those works.

If you take away the instructions on how to be righteous, how will anyone be righteous?

If you take away the rewards and chances to stand amongst the sons of God, then why would a Gentile care to even try?

Do you really honestly believe that some people are able to obtain heavenly afterlife rewards that others have no chance in obtaining because they didn't have the correct blood type?

Will people really be judged by blood in the resurrection?
 
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visionary

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Fantastic! This is good, at least we can find some common ground to go on.
You will have to be a little clearer here for me to understand what you are saying Vis. I will try and give you my understanding in response below. As hoping this will give you an indication of what I need from you to understand you :)

All it's members include Noachides. We are all one in Christ, and in one new covenant in Christ. Because entry into covenant (salvation) is by faith, not works.
Noahides are against Christ. Noahide laws pawned off through a veiled attempt, using Acts 15 Jerusalem Council, reeks of "duel covenants"... [this is for gentiles, that is for Jews mentality].

Not all members of MJ include Noahides. Certain factors do, to impress fellow Jews who have yet to see the light of Yeshua. They think that by walking like the non believing Jews, talking like the non believing Jews, that it will not only appease them, but get the door to open for them to enter into a covenant with them, and sneaking Yeshua in through the back door.... but at what cost... like Yeshua is no big thing..... like Gentiles are just a side issue that they can shove under the rug called Noahide, which the non believing Jews have been using for years. That is like throwing you baby sister under the bus, just because some are pointing their fingers at her and declaring her unfit to live in the same house.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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All it's members include Noachides. We are all one in Christ, and in one new covenant in Christ. Because entry into covenant (salvation) is by faith, not works.


''Every man's work will be tested by fire, if someone's work is tested and burned, he himself will be saved, but only as one who goes through a fire.''

'' Charity will cover the multitude of sins.''


''remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.''


Why are some the least and the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?


One is made the greatest in the kingdom because he kept the commandments of God and taught others to likewise to keep the commandments of God.


Why does Jesus tell those people to depart from him into outer darkness?

Because they were sinful, workers of iniquity even though they believed and had faith in Jesus, he says, '' I don't know you.''

Faith gets you in the door, but works excel you and they decide your afterlife.



This life is a test in order to decide what we will be in the next life.


A man can have faith all day long, but what good will faith alone do him in the whole scheme of things?

The works a person does and or truly knowing God is going to decide our fate.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Please provide proof Messianics teach Noachides not to believe Jesus is their Saviour.

Please provide proof UMJC teaches Noachides ar not to accept Jesus as their saviour.
Really haven't seen where the UMJC or Messianics teach at any point that those advocating the Noachides are to not believe in Yeshua as Savior. In fact, for anyone advocating what the Lord noted to Noah in Genesis 9 when it came to universals to all mankind, I've yet to see where it was the case that anyone noting how that applies to Gentiles automatically teaches that Yeshua is not Savior.

Before there was even a concept in Rabbinical Judaism of Noachides (of which MANY - not all - advocated Gentiles didn't need to trust in Yeshua), the concept of the Covenant of Noah was already in place. And logically, one cannot use those advocating the Noahide Laws from Judaism to somehow 'prove' that all Gentiles who are told the Covenant of Noah as laws they're under (counter to those who are Hebrew connected with Mosaic Covenant) must somehow be advocating Christ isn't the savior because of what other Rabbinical Jews noted.

Hiliel noted the issue in regards to the standards Noah was given and how that was what Gentiles were under. It was a well-known school of thought in the world of the Pharisees - and thus, we have to be honest with the culture.

Acts 15 discusses the assertion by some believers that a man must be circumcised in order to be saved. The conclusion of the Apostles and Elders (Acts 15:20), under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, was to lay upon the Gentiles only four requirements:
• to avoid fornication​

• to avoid idolatry​

• to avoid eating blood

• to avoid eating that which is strangled.​



As has been noted, these are very similar to the Noahide laws. This does not mean that Gentiles are free to murder, steal, and dishonor their parents. The passage assumes a universal morality, as do Paul, Peter, and James (who were present that day), and John in their writings. As Romans 2 notes, Gentiles can perceive the law of God, even without the revelation of Moses, and are responsible for many standards that are also expressed in the Bible. For example, classic Roman moral law taught the ideals of monogamous marriage, honoring parents, honesty and much


Acts 15:20, 29
. . . that you abstain from meat that has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what has been strangled and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from doing these things, you will do well. Farewell (Acts 15:29).
(1) The prohibition against eating blood is NOT from the Mosaic law. It is from Genesis 9:2-4, which obviously predates Mosaic law. This is a universal prohibition for the entire human race and for all time. (If you try to argue that it is not, you must also argue that the prohibition against murder is not.)

(2) According to Genesis 9:3-4, blood is not food. It does not say that blood is a forbidden food; it says that blood is not food (for, just as God defined food in Genesis 1:29 as plant matter, here He defines food as plant matter and animal flesh, excluding blood).

(3) Whenever one bleeds an animal killed for meat, he has fulfilled the command of Genesis 9 not to eat meat with the blood. (By the way, eating a rare steak is not sin, as long as the meat was properly bled when it was slaughtered. A small amount of blood always remains in meat even after bleeding. Further, cooking meat so that it no longer appears red does not remove the tiny bit of blood that remains – it simply changes its color.) To put it more precisely, in Genesis 9 God forbids the INTENTIONAL eating of blood – either by extracting blood and drinking it, or by intentionally leaving it in meat slaughtered for consumption. This is because “the life is in the blood” (Leviticus 17:11). There is something fundamentally wrong with eating what still has the life in it. This is related to the whole concept of sacrifice that is so central to Christ’s redeeming work, for in the spilling of blood there is the taking of life. It is also one of the reasons why many pagan religions advocate the eating of blood. There was actually an entire pagan theology of eating one’s enemies in order to absorb their life-force - and that occurred all over the world, especially in Latin American cultures like the Mayans or the Aztecs...

(4) Fornication is also something that God universally prohibits, though it is more difficult to find this in Scripture by chapter and verse. Genesis 2:24 essentially establishes the only context in which sexual relations are approved by God: marriage. This is not a merely Mosaic regulation; it is universally binding on all of mankind. It is clear that God forbids fornication (i.e. sexual immorality – any kind of sex outside of marriage) even among pagans. Again, the prohibition against fornication is not a Mosaic prohibition, but a universal one.

(5) Idolatry is obviously also something that God universally forbids. This hardly needs to be supported (and one can go to Romans 1:22-25 for just one example).

(6) The conclusion is clear. The four things prohibited in the Acts 15 letter are all NON-MOSAIC, universal regulations. They are, and always have been, universally binding on all humans. They are, however, also strongly emphasized in Mosaic law. Pagan society in the first century was woefully unaware of these universal regulations – except through the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures (hence James’ comment in Acts 15:21). When the Jerusalem church agreed that Mosaic regulations should not be imposed on the Gentile believers, they recognized that with the rejection of Mosaic regulations as binding on Gentile Christians, it might be understood that the prohibitions against idolatry, eating blood, eating strangled meat, and fornication should also be thrown out, as they were only generally known through Mosaic law. The church was careful to restate these regulations not because they wanted to avoid scandalizing Jewish believers, but because they were and are and always will be universally binding on all mankind. They did not want to appear to be condoning what God had universally condemned.


The only requirement placed on the Gentile believers was that they “abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication” (verse 25). The problem seems to be in what the Jerusalem Council did not say about Jewish practice. The Jerusalem elders probably clarified the fact that Jewish Christians could continue to keep the law, not as a means to salvation, but as an expression of love and obedience.

They could delight in the law, not because it gave them any merit or standing before God, but because it had been fulfilled in Christ, and because they were now righteous in God’s sight. The standards of righteousness which the law upheld were now no longer a cause of fear, but the basis for rejoicing and worship. They once were frustrated by their own failure to fulfill the laws demands, but now they rejoiced because Christ had fulfilled the entire law and they were not under the curse. And the kingdom to which the Old Testament saint looked forward was a certainty, which Jewish and Gentile saints would receive together (see Hebrews 11:39-40).

Paul’s very strong words in the Book of Galatians were addressed to those who would impose the law and law-keeping on Gentile believers, not toward those who were true believers and who wished, as Jewish Christians, to continue to live in accordance with the law and to observe Old Testament rituals. It was one (damnable) thing for Judaisers to insist that Gentile saints must keep the law in order to be saved, and quite another for Jewish Christians to keep the law because they were saved. Even Gentiles were not turned away from the law, but were enabled to fulfill its requirements:


Romans 8:1-4
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit .

One cannot have it both ways when trying to say "Advocating Noahide laws is against Christ!!!!!" because of what other Rabbinical Jews have done....and yet still advocate trying to walk according to 1st century Judaism itself since many of the same things others against the Noahide laws approve of are also utilized by Jews who don't believe in Yeshua.....in fact, many of the customs advocated by those in Messianic Judaism (i.e. Rabbinical studies, Kosher, Talmud, Biblical Feasts celebrated, etc.) are done by others who advocate that Christ is NOT to be believed in.

If we don't go the entire way, then what's show is that one is being selective.

But even apart from that, there's still the larger issue that seems to not be addressed...and that's the fact that the use of the term "Dual Covenant" doesn't seem to be used in it's proper context. For the concept itself was originally used to apply to others advocating the idea that the Mosaic Covenant was sufficient for one to connect with God - and that Jews who denied Yeshua but claimed allegiance to the Law of Moses would be able to have salvation since the Mosaic Law is seen as the final revelation of the Lord.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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BOTH Jew AND Gentile, no matter what, must have Yeshua's atonement.
Unfortunately,

Real Dual Covenant Theology will always involve assuming that Jews DON'T need the atonement of Yeshua in order to achieve salvation - and that Jews who actively reject him are still going to have eternal life due to the belief that the Mosaic Law is good.
For good review on what Dual Covenant theology is practically:

Dual Covenant Theology: Loving Jews to Literal Death - Jan Markell

Zionist Extremist: Iran vs. Israel, Dual Covenant Theology NOT of God! - YouTube


Dual Covenant Theology is much more a danger in regards to anyone claiming the Jewish people are good in rejecting the Messiah based on what they think of the OT - as if the Mosaic Covenant was all that mattered:
...

But Jews (or Gentiles) who actively deny Christ and yet claim allegiance to the Law of Moses go counter to Christ since it was not enough for salvation - Jesus noted that even Moses believed in Christ as the FINAL revelation ( Mark 9:3-5, )


John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5:45-47
45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”



Any Jews who don't follow Christ and instead choose to focus on the Mosaic Law alone are non-believers and are running about incomplete....for all who chose not to believe in the Messiah. Unless, of course, one is for the mindset that all Jewish people in existence are automatically believers in the Lord/geared for eternity with Him. Christ made that very plain in John 8:31-48 as well as multiple other places when discussing what it means to be a believer in HIM and saying those who do not are non-believers. What was said rather plainly was that Jews not trusting in Yeshua are nob-believers....in line with what the scriptures make plain.

An Incomplete Religion? w/ Dr. Michael Brown 1/2 - YouTube
An Incomplete Religion? w/ Dr. Michael Brown 2/2 - YouTube

One cannot believe Yeshua is the Way to salvation and simultaneously claim Jews without Christ are complete as they are..as that's the what other Messianic Jewish organizations have often had to address when seeing the same taught by others such as John Hagee with Dual Covenant theology when claiming the Jewish people apart from Messiah do not need evangelism/the Work of the Messiah. It was dealt with by the early Jewish believers in the early church and it is something others have discussed here before.

Everyone has to go through Yeshua, as He is the Gate--and although not all roads lead to God, the Lord can meet others on any road (As He often does) .....for the Lord has met others/brought them to faith in Yeshua for salvation when they previously denounced Him - whereas others who did know about Him actively rejected him anyhow...to their detriment.

Of course, we do not know the hearts of everyone present - and so there's nothing saying all within Judaism who do not trust in the Lord will never come to Him since God's Mercy is truly amazing.

Nonetheless, I wonder often what to make of it when the apostles often noted that those who have heard of Yeshua in this life/reject Him to keep His instructions can never be saved - and not be a part of His Church (Jew and Gentile), God's Israel:
Acts 28:27
23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]
2
8 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” [29] [b


] 30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. 31 He proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ—with all boldness and without hindrance!
Acts 4:12
“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” ()



God has not rejected the Jewish people because they still have the opportunity to become a part of HIS People - the Church - with him working within the Jewish nation of unbelievers to draw them to Him.....


mosaic_loaves__fishes.jpg.960x.jpg

Many may say that believing in Yeshua is not necessary because the Jewish people had all the revelation they needed in the Mosaic Law - but that is far from complete when seeing the entirety of the scriptures. For believing that the Mosaic was all that one needed for salvation ignores directly what Yeshua himself sought to make plain when it came to noting that even the Mosaic Law itself was subject to changes - things that the Jews needed to understand if they were going to be in the right position in life. And Yeshua did indeed bring MANY changes with Him.
There was a good article on the issue as seen in"The New Galatians" (page 1 of 1) - Moriel Ministries.https://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/h...lse&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&ui=1&os_ver=6.1.1.0</DIV>javascript:void(0) There's a difference between seeing what aspects of the Law Yeshua kept and then telling all others to obey laws in the name of "Yeshua kept the Law" and ignoring where parts of the Law Yeshua never advocated for people to follow - and at certain times, went against. We can go no further than John 5, where Yeshua was noted to not be doing things status-quo as many often believe when it came to the Torah....

John 5:3
14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, &#8220;See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.&#8221; 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

Life Through the Son

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17 Jesus said to them, &#8220;My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.&#8221; 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

More has been shared on the aspect of Christ and the Sabbath - the ways he literally revolutionized it and transformed the way it was seen while still noting it to be important (just as he did with other aspects of the Law - more shared here, here, here, here, here and here for reference rather than re-posting it all here for discussion). Because Jesus performed miracles of healing on the Sabbath, some Pharisees accused Him of breaking the Sabbath (Matthew 12:10; Mark 3:2, John 9:14&#8211;16). John records that Jesus performed a healing during one of the festivals in Jerusalem. John's gospel records what happened next, when Jesus confronted His accusers: "Jesus answered them, 'My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.' Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:17&#8211;18). Of course, one could also advocated that when Jesus healed on the Sabbath, He was not breaking the Sabbath and was actually fulfilling it, because one is not at rest when afflicted, oppressed and bound by disease or infirmity. As many scriptures show, God delights in redeeming and restoring the afflicted, and giving them the rest exemplified by His Sabbath. God "hears the cry of the afflicted. When he gives quietness [rest], who then can make trouble?" (Job 34:28&#8211;29). And sadly, bound by their false traditions, the Pharisees did try to make trouble for the Messiah, condemning Him for giving those whom He healed rest from their afflictions.

And Jesus answered those who accused him of breaking the Sabbath: "If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath? Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:23&#8211;24). Nonetheless, The sabbath law (the fourth commandment) was a ceremonial law, and God himself gave many examples of when it can be broken right in the law of Moses. (priests in temple for example). When they accused Jesus of doing something unlawful, Jesus did not deny he had done something unlawful, He pointed to the fact that David also did something unlawful, then said, if David was considered innocent when he broke the law, so was Jesus likewise innocent when He broke the Sabbath law. There is no escaping that this was how Jesus argued..David twofold broke the law by eating showbread without sin. It was a direct violation the law of Moses, yet David was excepted because of humanitarian needs of the moment.

And Yeshua IS THE BOSS..

But again, more has been shared elsewhere. on the issue before.
 
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Gxg (G²);65038775 said:
There's a difference between seeing what aspects of the Law Yeshua kept and then telling all others to obey laws in the name of "Yeshua kept the Law" and ignoring where parts of the Law Yeshua never advocated for people to follow - and at certain times, went against. We can go no further than John 5, where Yeshua was noted to not be doing things status-quo as many often believe when it came to the Torah....
John 5:3
14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, &#8220;See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.&#8221; 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

Life Through the Son

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17 Jesus said to them, &#8220;My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.&#8221; 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Yeshua did not "break the Sabbath" but rather "loosened" it meaning that he had loosed the Sabbath from the entanglements of man-made traditions which were added to the commandment:

John 5:18 Transliterated Unaccented
18. Dia touto oun mallon ezetoun auton hoi Ioudaioi apokteinai, hoti ou monon eluen to sabbaton, alla kai "Patera" idion elegen ton Theon ison heauton poion toTheo.

"hoti ou monon eluen to sabbaton" ~ "because not only he loosened the Sabbath. . ."


The very same thing happens in the famous Matthew 5 passage:

Matthew 5:19 KJV
19. Whosoever therefore shall break [GSN#3089 luo] one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Original Strong's Ref. #3089
Romanized luo
Pronounced loo'-o
a primary verb; to "loosen" (literally or figuratively):
KJV--break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-)loose, melt, put off. Compare GSN4486.

Matthew 5:19 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
19. 'Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands - the least - and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach [them], he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.


So by "tightening up" the meaning of "luo" from "loosen" to "broken" the majority of English translations have essentially done exactly what the passage warns against. Not many generally think of themselves as teaching others to "break" the law but what if it says that those who loosen Torah and teach others the same are the least in the kingdom of the heavens? Likewise they have suggested in most English translations that in John 5:18 Yeshua broke the Sabbath. He did not break the Sabbath but rather loosed it from the extraneous ordinances of men which were piled onto it, (though those ordinances were put there simply to insure that it was kept). The point then is that one cannot rightfully say that "since Yeshua broke the Sabbath it must not be all that important" because Yeshua did not "break" the Sabbath. :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Trying to follow Torah will not save you or anyone else since nobody can follow it completely. All sin. That does not mean you should not try. As I said, only in Yeshua do we ALL have salvation, Jew and gentile. Yeshua's "commandments are specific as Torah, love The Almighty and love your neighbor as yourself...on these 2 hang all the Law and the prophets.
In the Early Church, there were others promoting the spirit of lawlessness whenever they would try to add on to what God commanded of believers in the New Covenant and say that it was a matter of keeping the Law - for in doing so, that'd be a matter of sin. This is what the Ebionites (certain camps of them, specifically) were guilty of opposite of Marcion when they advocated the keeping of all aspects of the OT in order to avoid being lawless as they saw it....for going past what Yeshua noted and what God promoted is what lawlessness is about.....and lawlessness was never about not following all things solely in Mosaic code. When God gave different laws to different groups, that was the Law they were to be for - and to go back to a previous system of law was disobedience in itself - as well as promoting the wrong law.


1 John 3:4
[ Sin and the Child of God ] Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.


Sin is what lawlessness is defined by - not systems of law given at one time or another. To those under the Law of Moses, to go past that was SIN - and at the same time, there were others not bound by the Mosaic Law (like Jethro of Midian and others like Noah ) who were given differing requirements/laws (as the Gentiles were outside of Israel ) and to not be faithful to that was SIN - for them. And likewise, in Matthew 7, many quote that saying "That's the way Yeshua will speak to the Gentiles since they were lawless (i.e. not under Mosaic Code!!!") yet the context is one where he was speaking primarily to a Jewish audience - warning them of false prophets who were doing many things that were approved of/asked by the Lord...but it wasn't His HEART nor was it His Will for them.

There's an excellent paper on the issue elsewhere if interested - as it address the Anti-Semitism present in Marcionism and other systems that developed to combat it and yet went in other directions. ..for the paper explores Ebionism and Marcionism, two early church heresies which depict the two most antithetical forms of the Judaism-OT and Christianity-NT breach in early Christianity. It addresses Ebionism's philo-Semitlism and Marcionism&#8217;s chagrin for the Jewish roots of Christianity - both shown to be antecedents to certain contemporary heretical conceptions ...and both having a corrective found in Paul's metaphor of God&#8217;s revelatiory-redemptive olive tree (Romans 1/:/7-24) which aptly describes the dual necessity of the root and the branches, that is the Old and New Testaments.


I like what was said in previous discussion (more discussed here and here/here, here , here, here and here )- as seen here:
Originally Posted by SGM4HIM
The bible discusses different instructions or torah for different people in different environments and Different covenants. Different sacrifices and methods from the tabernacle wilderness to the first temple, to the 2nd and different priesthoods etc.

This is not to say- many instructions involving our relationship with Hashem and humanity are identical throughout the ages.

The NT scriptures are clear that the new gentile believers in Yeshua were not required to adopt all practices of their fellow Jewish believers.
Yes, there is more than one Covenant. The New one is superior- the NT says so. The Old one was a tutor, and could not achieve the same things. I really don't have the time to go over this yet again. Search the archives.

Yes, there is also something the NT calls the "Law of Christ" (Or Torah of Moschiach if you insist) and it is not the same as the Mosaic Torah on every point. So, yes, there is a Torah for all mankind and one for the Jews but they have the same source. .


And on the Law of Christ, in the Epistle to the Galatians, written by Paul of Tarsus to a number of early Christian communities in the Roman province of Galatia in central Anatolia, he wrote: "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2). Most have noted this to be an allusion either to the Second greatest commandment ("love thy neighbor") or the New Commandment ("love one another"). There's also 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 / 1 Corinthians 9 -

When studying the Scriptures, there do seem to be clear signs/indications of progession of thought when/if it comes to the Law and seeing differing applications. For many it has always been an issue of attempting to do what can be done - as opposed to focusing (as others have noted) on what you or I were specifically given to due according to Christ /the example of the early Body of Believers who had a New Covenant/Brit Chadasha and moving from there - for we are not to start in the Torah, find whatever they did and then say "That is what happened then and it will be that way forever" - but rather, as the Early Jewish body of believers did, we are to see what the Lord instructs to do in the example of Yeshua...and then go from there. It's not a lack of appreciation for the Law to see it as such - but rather, it's a matter of finding out how to apply it properly...and regardless of where we all stand, the reality is ultimately on how we can live our lives to the Glory of God. Messianic Jew/Rabbi Asher Intrater did a wonderful job of seeking to cover that in his series "Living to Honor God"



For in everything that we do, it should be on living to glorify Him on a minute-to-minute basis. And Instead of questioning every circumstance, we are simply to ask, "How can I bring glory to God?" regardless of the situation ( 1 Corinthians 10:30- ), and in doing so, live a life of faith.
Colossians 3:17
And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Colossians 3
But with the Law itself, as it concerns application, the Law of Christ/Law of Love are what take precedence:

200390-albums3029-27526.jpg


In the event that what I've said/taken time to share isn't clear enough, as one prominent Messianic Jewish synagouge (Congregation Shema Yisrael) (for brief excerpt):​


  • The covenant upon which much of the Torah is based is a broken covenant (there is no Temple and therefore no sacrifices by which we may draw near to God and obtain eternal life). It is impossible to keep all the laws of the Mosaic Covenant today. In addition, most Jews live outside of Israel, and many of the laws only apply to life within Israel.
  • The laws that are part of the covenant mediated by Moses are still extremely valuable and relevant. The Torah continues to inform and guide the life of the Jewish people. It teaches us the right things to do and gives us a good way to live. It helps us live an authentic Jewish lifestyle. It helps us remain part of the Holy People. The issue of assimilation is a major problem for Messianic Jews. Historically, Messianic Jewish families that make no effort to live a Jewish lifestyle or to be involved in Jewish evangelism will almost always assimilate and lose their Jewish identity within a couple of generations. The issue of assimilation is something that is addressed in the New Testament. Rabbi Paul commands Messianic Jews to not become uncircumcised (1 Corinthians 7:18), which means not to seek assimilation into the prevailing Gentile culture, but to continue their Jewish way of life.
  • The Torah is more than the Mosaic Covenant. All of the Word of God, including the New Covenant, is &#8220;Torah&#8221; (literally, &#8220;teaching&#8221; or &#8220;instruction&#8221;).
  • The early Messianic Jews had a favorable view of the Torah, and many were zealous to live in accordance with it (see Acts 21:20 26). History documents that Messianic Jews continued to live a distinctly Jewish, Torah based lifestyle for centuries after the arrival of Messiah Yeshua. There is no incompatibility with being &#8220;zealous for the Torah&#8221; and being a Messianic Jew.
Therefore: I am pro Torah, while recognizing that the Covenant made at Sinai is a broken covenant. I am pro-Torah, valuing the great wisdom that is found in the Torah. I am pro Torah, recognizing that all Believers are in some sense to fulfill the Law (Romans 8:4), but that not all of us are obligated to fulfill the same requirements of the Law (for example, Gentiles need not be circumcised).


 
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