amariselle
Jesus Never Fails
- Sep 28, 2004
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Read the parts you didn't highlight, like verse 22.
Exactly, but that does NOT mean we can sin and it isn't called sin. It means we now through Christ's gift to us of His power, cannot sin, because the Spirit in us doesn't sin. We need to walk in the Spirit. He who sins is not of God, but of the devil. That's also in 1 John 3
When we are "born of God", that is a "new creation in Christ" we cannot sin. Obviously this is not talking about our flesh or being physically a "new creation", but inwardly, the "inner man". This "inner man" is born of God and is entirely without sin. And so, even "if our hearts condemn us" we can have "confidence toward God." Our confidence/hope is in Him, not ourselves.
And as true believers, saved and born again, new creations in Him, of course we love one another.
I'm sorry he is not just talking about the inner man, and not the flesh/carnal nature. That is very similar to the old Gnostic teaching that the only sins held against us are the sins in our spirit/inner man, but the sins of the flesh don't matter. They would say they don't sin, even though they were raping each other's wives to show the power of grace. That is what John was referring to in 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10. The only way for them to be cleansed of sin and their false thinking is through verse 9, then you are verse 7.
Our flesh still sins. The inner man is a new creation, totally without sin. That's why the "flesh" wars against the Spirit as Paul says.
Anyone who says they are without sin deceives themselves and the truth is not in them.
I can assure you, I am not a Gnostic. If you think we can be perfect in our corrupted flesh in this life, however, and thereby earn or merit salvation, you are sadly mistaken. No one has ever done that. (Other than Christ, no one has ever lived a sinless life in the flesh).
I see you are still quoting 1 John 1:8 as if you want to justify sin in the flesh, as did not Gnostics. Look them up.
Have you ever been baptized in the Spirit and felt His power over sin in you? If not, then you are going by your experience as a weak sinner, and not the experience of having power over sin. I may just go ahead and send you my testimony. It might help you see the difference. I was in church for 30 years before receiving God's Spirit. What a difference His Spirit makes.
Snip
Our salvation salvation is Christ plus nothing.
One has to do what Christ told us to do. Try reading the scriptures with the correct glasses.
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:1-13
More on salvation by faith in Christ alone, not works: (So many people truly need to know this)
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:14-18
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." - John 5:24
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."
"Then said they unto him, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'"
Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'" - John 6:27-29
"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40
There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in His Son. (Romans 6:23)
Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. (Romans 10:4)
We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8)
We must not go about to establish our own righteousness. (Romans 10:1-4)
God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. - (2 Peter 3:9)
Repentance from "dead works" and faith toward God. - (Hebrews 6:1)
By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified, but only by faith in Christ. (Galatians 2:16)
Also read Romans 4, Romans 5, Galatians 5, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 11
Our salvation is entirely by faith in Christ and what He has done. (The Gospel) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Thats always the accusation. When someone admits that we can't earn salvation by living sinless lives, the comeback is always, "well then, you want to justify sin."
Absurd.
You mean the way that someone else tells me to?
No thanks.
I've noticed you have repeatedly refused to address all the Scripture I've shared regarding salvation by faith.
Why?
Because you always pick scripture out of context to suit YOUR narrow beliefs.
I think you two are talking past each other. I’m not Pentacostal, but I definitely relate to 1stcenturylady’s point about the power of the Holy Spirit. It is a phenomenal, life changing thing. On the other hand, I also understand what you’re saying about the sufficiency of Calvary and the fact that we cannot lead sinless lives. Even Paul lamented this fact in Romans 7:15-20.
So yeah…you’re both right.
What makes an icon different from other artist's renditions of Biblical stories or Biblical personages, such as the Last Supper or pictures in a children's Bible?Does the bible help you worship? Then by your standard it's an idol.
Icons are teaching tools... the poor mans bible.
End of my discussion on this topic.
Forgive me...
What makes an icon different from other artist's renditions of Biblical stories or Biblical personages, such as the Last Supper or pictures in a children's Bible?
I don't think you realize what a huge topic this actually is. This is something I put together a few years ago after reading a few books on icons. Hopefully it will answer your question.What makes an icon different from other artist's renditions of Biblical stories or Biblical personages, such as the Last Supper or pictures in a children's Bible?
I thought this was enlightening enough regarding the particular thread to add in this information about how Christ is portrayed in icons.Eastern Orthodox Christians and Iconography | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese
So what is an icon? Webster defines an icon as an image (Webster, 1966). In the Orthodox Church an icon is a sacred image, a window into heaven. An image of another reality, of a person, time and place that is more real than here and now. More than art, icons have an important spiritual role. Michel Quenot says it well in his book, The Icon: Window on the Kingdom, an icon is "theology in imagery, the icon expresses through color what the Gospel proclaims in words".
For this reason the rules regarding the creation of an icon are rigorous. The iconographer must prepare himself for the task of painting an icon by following a strict discipline of fasting and prayer. He must quiet his spirit and submit himself to God. The icon he creates will not be signed. He will not expect accolades or applause when the icon is completed. The icon will be created to inspire and lead others into worship. Painting the icon is not a use of imagination. Instead, the icon will be painted using the prescribed regimen and style that has been passed down through the centuries. Everything from the facial expressions to the colors used is predetermined. The following is a prayer recited by an iconographer prior to starting to work:
O Divine Master of all that exists, enlighten and direct the soul, the heart and the mind of your servant: guide my hands so that I might portray worthily and perfectly Your Image, that of Your Holy Mother and of all the Saints, for the glory, the joy, and the beautification of Your Holy Church. ( Quenot, p.13)
The primary purpose of the icon is to aid in worship. Its design follows that purpose. Through lines and color the iconographer conveys the awesomeness of the invisible, divine reality (Evdokimov, 1990). The creation of an icon is defined by tradition. That is a 21 st century iconographer would not decide to change the shape of Christ's face. It is understood that a person who saw them in the flesh painted the first icon of an individual. St. Luke is accredited with painting the first icons of Christ and Mary the Blessed Virgin. Each subsequent iconographer will use the original icon as a guide. There is room for a small amount of stylistic change but tradition limits the options for that change ( Forest, 1997).
Icons are not created to force an emotional response. When portraying historical scenes the faces don't show emotions but instead portray virtues such as purity, patience in suffering, forgiveness, compassion and love. An example of this would be the portrayal of Christ on the cross. Neither is the icon a sentimental picture. Christ is always shown as God. Even the icons of Christ seated on His mother's lap show Him with an adult face, revealing that even though Christ lived as a child among us He was also God ( Forest,1997).
Icons depict silence. There are no actions displayed, no open mouths. The icon invites the Christian to enter into contemplation,prayer, and silence (Ware,1979). Space is not defined as three-dimensional and time is insignificant. The story told by the icon precludes time and space. An example would be the icon of the Nativity, which shows the cave where Christ was born in the background with those who came to adore in small vignettes. Lighting proceeds from the character portrayed in the icon. There are never shadows in icons. This shows us that the saint portrayed is 'glorified' having completed the race and entered into heaven (Quenot,1991).
Symbolism is used in icons and details are used minimally. For example, when showing John the Baptist baptizing in the river the grown man he baptizes is shown as an infant because the baptism is a rebirth. Colors are also symbolic. Blue reveals heaven and mystery. Green is youth, fertility and the earth's vegetation. Red, the color of blood, suggests life, vitality and beauty. White is purity, the divine world and innocence. Gold indicates sanctity, splendor, and the glory of God and life in the heavenly kingdom. Purple reveals wealth, power and authority.
First and foremost, icons are a constant reminder of the incarnation of Christ, that is to say, they remind us that God "sent His only begotten Son" (Bible, John 3:16) to rescue us from our sin and death. We cannot see God the Father or God the Holy Spirit, but, because Christ chose to take on human flesh, we can see Him. His face can be portrayed on wood with paint. We can also paint His Mother and other saints who have finished the race and gone on to heaven. The Orthodox believe that surrounding themselves with icons help them to acknowledge the constant presence of Christ and the saints in their lives.
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