Drop your theological errors off here...

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Hearing, believing, confessing with our mouth, being baptized and partaking in communion is the way for sinners to return to everlasting life. We really cant miss the point that he "established a Church" based on a baptismal creed quoted by St. Peter and used by the Eunich in ACTS 9.

The Church has a purpose, to distribute grace through the sacraments given for the forgiveness of sins.

To stop short, just at believing, is akin to turning back.

Forgive me...

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In other words, even though Jesus said believing was the "will of the Father" and is all one must "do" to be saved, it's not enough.

FenderTL5 said:

So the Apostle was being superfluous when he wrote Romans 12?

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Is Paul writing to believers or unbelievers?

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Yes, clearly it states by Christ alone. The Holy Church teaches that blameless peoples from outside the Church are also saved. Knowledge is not needed for a blameless people. Yet, that is Christ saving them, even if they never heard that there was a Christ.

Does western theology teach this? No. The scholastic approach means that you must have some knowledge.

Forgive me...

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Really? So you believe that people can be saved without even knowing Christ simply because they are "blameless?"

That is not Biblical. The Bible clearly says that no one comes to the Father but through the Son, and that Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life.

amariselle said:

Is Paul writing to believers or unbelievers?

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He is writing those who are 'called to be saints'.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind

Are we not saying the same thing here?

Forgive me...

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Romans (as all Paul's epistles) is written to believers already saved.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.- Romans 12:1-2

Live out your faith in Christ, by which you have been saved. Such is "your reasonable service."

This has nothing to do with earning salvation. Paul is writing to believers ("brethren") already saved once Christ.

FenderTL5 said:

He is writing those who are 'called to be saints'.

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He is writing to his "brethren". Those already saved. Brothers and sisters in Christ. He is telling them to live out their faith, "their reasonable service." He is not telling them they must somehow earn their salvation.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

It sure does. However how that is interpreted by The Church and by an individual is completely different.

Forgive me...

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How else do you "interpret" that Christ is the only Way to the Father? The only Way to be saved?

That is not open to interpretation actually. That's the Gospel.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

So is Matthew 25, yet you denied it at interpreted by The Church preferring your own interpretation.

Forgive me...

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I did not. The Bible does not contradict itself. God's word clearly teaches that no one can or is earning their salvation.

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:1-13

OrthodoxyUSA said:

We will agree to disagree then.

Forgive me...

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Fair enough. I wish you could see that we cannot earn our salvation, but I clearly cannot convince you.

God bless

truefiction1 said:

If dining with Christ in His Kingdom, by the Holy Spirit, is what one believes is false, then of what joy will that one partake of in eternity?

Jude 1:10

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When did i say anything about dining with Christ in his kingdom? And what do you mean ""by the Holy Spirit" ?

I've never heard any Christian who believes the physical descendants of Abraham have rights to the holy land call unbelieving Jews 'spiritual Israel.' That's not the way such evangelicals speak or think about the issue in my experience.

Romans 11 says that blindness has happened, in part, to Israel for a time, that they are enemies for your sake's, but beloved for the sake's of the fathers. Verse 26 says, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shallturn away ungodliness from Jacob: "

'Spiritual Israel' is the type of language those who hold to 'replacement theology' call the church. One could hold to what you might consider Zionist views and still use 'spiritual Israel' as a term to refer to the church. Or possibly some might use it to refer to converted Jews who believe in Jesus, as many of the figures we read about in the New Testament were.

I wrote and OrthodoxyUSA responded

Would you consider Justin Martyr/the Philosopher and Papias to be orthodox?

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Justin Martyr yes. Papias is not celebrated as a Saint of The Church[/quote]

If you or your priest were not celebrated as saints of the church would that mean you aren't Orthodox?

truefiction1 said:

If you had been aware of how many times I have chanted aloud all of these passages of the Gospel inside of Orthodox Churches, or reading them in the quiet hours at home, fully understanding what Christ means by these words, then you wouldn't have invested the time in needlessly repeating them here.

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I do not rely on personal chants and various church rituals to provide salvation for me. I rely only on the finished work of Jesus Christ at Calvary to provide salvation for me.

Faith is assurance according to scripture.

Considering that you said in the post before that absolute assurance does not exist - I would have indeed invested time by repeating what the scriptures say for you here.

No matter what you chant when away from the forum - I only respond to what you say here in the forum. What you said was not faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as your hope of salvation but a lack of faith according to the clear testimony of the Word of God.

I will reiterate the scripture's path to salvation by grace through faith every time I hear someone indicate that they are on another path.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

truefiction1 said:

Belief is a free choice, and it is inseparable from obedience to God's will.

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Exactly so.

Good luck with your interpretation of the way of salvation. I hope to see to you in eternity.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Christ speaking:
Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Works.

Forgive me...

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Superb.

amariselle said:

Do you know what "trampling the Son of God underfoot" is? It is rejecting Christ's sacrifice through unbelief. (The very reason the Bible says the Jews were "cut off") Sining "willfully" is to turn from the truth of Christ once we've recieved knowledge of His sacrifice and the Gospel. This is not talking about making mistakes or messing up or failing in the flesh. (Even Paul wrote about his struggle with not doing the things he knew he should do, and doing what he knew he should not, and how he therefore did not understand himself). The flesh wars against the Spirit, that's the reality for all believers.)

There is no more sacrifice for sin for anyone who rejects Christ's sacrifice, because He is the only way to the Father. He alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father but by Him.

There is no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, and He has promised never to leave us or forsake us. Rightly divide the word of truth. Don't just quote a few surrounding verses if you're going to accuse me of taking something out of context, quote the whole letter then, as it's meant to be read in it's entirely. (More importantly, take the entire counsel of God into account, through the other parts of His word).

I used to believe as you do, so I get it. I used to believe that my salvation actually had something to do with me. I used to believe that I was lost each and every time I sinned, that I had somehow been "unborn" again, cut off, rejected. This led me to start wondering how many times God was going to bother taking me back when I was surely going to sin again in the future. And then I started listening to/reading God's word, in context. Then I finally understood. My salvation is not about me and my behaving well enough to be saved, (Christ justifies the ungodly), my salvation is entirely in Christ's hands and He has not failed.

So, finally, I took my eyes off myself and looked to the cross and to Jesus Christ alone for my salvation. Finally I had peace.

I hope you can come to realize the same. (And just so you know, I do not justify sin) I am fully aware of how wretched I am without Christ. The point is that I also realize Jesus did not fail in what He came to accomplish, and He did not lie when He said He would be with us to the end of the age.

You also need to keep in mind that all the epistles are written to believers, already saved.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:31-39

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The Scriptures you are quoting are wonderful for those who ARE HIS, but not for those who still walk in the flesh of their carnal nature.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Starting with Romans 7, "
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

Chapter 8
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:16-21