Driving Force

cvanwey

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I must admit, this inference does leave one to ponder...?

Meaning, one could adopt evolution by natural selection in it's entirety, along with abiogensis, and etc... And yet still ask, 'what' drives such forces? Does there exist a way to test for such? Or must we merely appeal to all sorts of violated logical fallacies (i.e.) argument from ignorance, special pleading, and-the-like?
 

gaara4158

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Hmm... are you asking if there’s something more to know about the origin of life beyond the full mechanisms of abiogenesis and evolution by natural selection? If it’s not a mechanism itself, I don’t know how it could be tested for either.
 
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cvanwey

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Hmm... are you asking if there’s something more to know about the origin of life beyond the full mechanisms of abiogenesis and evolution by natural selection? If it’s not a mechanism itself, I don’t know how it could be tested for either.

I honestly cannot seem to find a methodology to conclude how, if scientific assertions are fully justified that is - that the origin of life was founded basically upon 'chemistry', does there exist a testable driving force which propels such phenomenon? (Disclaimer) I'm not a scientist.

Without appealing to fallacious reasoning, does there exist a way to test for this 'causal agent' in any capacity, if you assert there IS one?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I honestly cannot seem to find a methodology to conclude how, if scientific assertions are fully justified that is - that the origin of life was founded basically upon 'chemistry', does there exist a testable driving force which propels such phenomenon? (Disclaimer) I'm not a scientist.

Without appealing to fallacious reasoning, does there exist a way to test for this 'causal agent' in any capacity, if you assert there IS one?

According to Eugenie C. Scott (atheist), the answer is a hardy: "no."
 
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cvanwey

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According to Eugenie C. Scott (atheist), the answer is a hardy: "no."

What do (you) say?

If you agree with said quote, then you would also have to admit that to believe in a causal agent, 'justification' requires fallacious reasoning of some flavor.
 
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gaara4158

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I honestly cannot seem to find a methodology to conclude how, if scientific assertions are fully justified that is - that the origin of life was founded basically upon 'chemistry', does there exist a testable driving force which propels such phenomenon? (Disclaimer) I'm not a scientist.

Without appealing to fallacious reasoning, does there exist a way to test for this 'causal agent' in any capacity, if you assert there IS one?
I would have to say no. We can make philosophical arguments for or against the likelihood of there being one, but we couldn’t actually test it empirically.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What do (you) say?
I say the same thing as Eugenie C. Scott, and in this case, @gaara4158.

If you agree with said quote, then you would also have to admit that to believe in a causal agent, 'justification' requires fallacious reasoning of some flavor.
What? It requires ...."fallacious reasoning"? No. To rely upon Methodological Naturalism in this case just means we don't assume a causative agent nor do we assume there isn't one. It just means that where God might be concerned, we assert that we don't know either way----so we ignore God as a variable or as a factor. It implies agnosticism on the matter of God, not a falsified standpoint, and this implication applies to evolutionary theory as it is expressed in the remnants of the past just as much as it is implied in any of our modern attempts to do experiments. Either way, we can't detect God and it's assumed and predicted that we won't when doing something scientific.

It should go without saying in this instance that Eugenie C. Scott disagrees with the likes of Richard Dawkins as to our being able to 'detect' God in science. Dawkins thinks that we should because we could whereas Eugenie Scott thinks that this philosophical assertion from Dawkins is mistaken.
 
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cvanwey

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I say the same thing as Eugenie C. Scott, and in this case, @gaara4158.

What? It requires ...."fallacious reasoning"? No.

I think we may be speaking past each other? But lets test this a bit...

Based upon our prior interactions, it would appear [you] have concluded that God exists, in some capacity. Correct?

What is [your] 'reasoning' for this conclusion, while also fully acknowledging such an assertion is not testable? Shouldn't everyone instead be a skeptic, agnostic, doubter, etc...? Is it 'logical' to assert the existence of a God?
 
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Silmarien

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What do (you) say?

If you agree with said quote, then you would also have to admit that to believe in a causal agent, 'justification' requires fallacious reasoning of some flavor.

You seem to be equating "logical" with "testable," and declaring everything that is not based in empiricism to be fallacious reasoning. This is not what is meant by a logical fallacy.

If you want to see a logical fallacy, the sort of hasty and baseless generalization you're making in declaring everything aside from empiricism to be fallacious most certainly counts. You would need to actually demonstrate what is wrong with any other mode of reasoning to avoid falling into a fallacious argument yourself. (See, often logical fallacies are about form rather than content--being sloppy and missing steps. Or missing entire arguments, in this case.)
 
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cvanwey

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You seem to be equating "logical" with "testable," and declaring everything that is not based in empiricism to be fallacious reasoning. This is not what is meant by a logical fallacy.

If you want to see a logical fallacy, the sort of hasty and baseless generalization you're making in declaring everything aside from empiricism to be fallacious most certainly counts. You would need to actually demonstrate what is wrong with any other mode of reasoning to avoid falling into a fallacious argument yourself. (See, often logical fallacies are about form rather than content--being sloppy and missing steps. Or missing entire arguments, in this case.)

Well, if something is not testable, via, not falsifiable; yet still asserted true, would it be 'logical' to conclude sound reasoning?
 
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Silmarien

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Well, if something is not testable, via, not falsifiable; yet still asserted true, would it be 'logical' to conclude sound reasoning?

Yes. For example, I conclude that Julius Caesar existed. Historical facts are not testable and falsifiable in the scientific sense, but they can certainly be the conclusion of sound reasoning.
 
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cvanwey

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Yes. For example, I conclude that Julius Caesar existed. Historical facts are not testable and falsifiable in the scientific sense, but they can certainly be the conclusion of sound reasoning.

My apologies for my sloppy prior response :)... By 'something', I'm actually referring to the asserted 'causal agency'. And by a 'causal agent', I mean the 'driving force' for life. Let's start anew....
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I think we may be speaking past each other? But lets test this a bit...

Based upon our prior interactions, it would appear [you] have concluded that God exists, in some capacity. Correct?
No, that's not correct. Remember. I said I consider myself to be a kind of "existentialist" as regards the Christian faith. In some ways, my thinking and subjective perceptions of the world resemble those of Pascal and Kierkegaard; but in some other ways, I still place some firm reliance upon traditions of analysis that have been developing ever since the Greek philosophers decided to evaluate the world around them in rational fashion. It's just that, as far as religion goes in general, even for Christian faith, I don't believe that the nature of the epistemology involved in faith is parallel in structure to that relied upon by today's scientists who want to touch the face of Mars or figure out what "drives" evolutionary processes. No, touching the 'Face of God' is something else both ontologically and epistemologically, altogether, and as far as I can see, it only partially involves our best efforts to make sense of it all.

See the difference?


What is [your] 'reasoning' for this conclusion, while also fully acknowledging such an assertion is not testable? Shouldn't everyone instead be a skeptic, agnostic, doubter, etc...? Is it 'logical' to assert the existence of a God?
I'm existentialist, and I incorporate Philosophical Hermeneutics into my own subjective evaluation of the world and of religion and thereby, via Critical Realism, I find myself drawn to and willing to 'leap after' the essence of the Christian faith, or more specifically, I am willing to bow before the concept of Jesus Christ as not only a historical personage, but as Lord and Savior. See? Mine is not the typical evangelical spiel that is often touted about by modern American, even Protestant, Christians who often rely upon a claim to rational assent via a supposed pure process of Evidentialism clothed upon a Foundationalist epistemological framework. So, of course it isn't 'logical' to assert the existence of God, but it is a subjectively reasonable act to do, most particularly since being rational and reasonable isn't by necessity to be equated purely with being 'logical.' Logic, in the case of religion, CANNOT reign ...
 
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Silmarien

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My apologies for my sloppy prior response :)... By 'something', I'm actually referring to the asserted 'causal agency'. And by a 'causal agent', I mean the 'driving force' for life. Let's start anew....

If you want to start anew, your first task is to establish why falsifiability is a necessary element of sound reasoning. You haven't done that yet.
 
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cvanwey

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If you want to start anew, your first task is to establish why falsifiability is a necessary element of sound reasoning. You haven't done that yet.

Let's start with post number 12... I will replace one name, [Julius Caesar].

'Yes. For example, I conclude that [God] exists. Historical facts are not testable and falsifiable in the scientific sense, but they can certainly be the conclusion of sound reasoning.'

I again ask, what be the method of such 'sound reasoning'?
 
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Silmarien

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Let's start with post number 12... I will replace one name, [Julius Caesar].

'Yes. For example, I conclude that [God] exists. Historical facts are not testable and falsifiable in the scientific sense, but they can certainly be the conclusion of sound reasoning.'

I again ask, what be the method of such 'sound reasoning'?

No, let's start with establishing why falsifiability is a necessary element of sound reasoning. You're making a claim here--you get to back it up. Why is it illogical to conclude that Julius Caesar existed if we cannot test this claim in a laboratory?
 
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cvanwey

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No, that's not correct. Remember. I said I consider myself to be a kind of "existentialist" as regards the Christian faith. In some ways, my thinking and subjective perceptions of the world resemble those of Pascal and Kierkegaard; but in some other ways, I still place some firm reliance upon traditions of analysis that have been developing ever since the Greek philosophers decided to evaluate the world around them in rational fashion. It's just that, as far as religion goes in general, even for Christian faith, I don't believe that the nature of the epistemology involved in faith is parallel in structure to that relied upon by today's scientists who want to touch the face of Mars or figure out what "drives" evolutionary processes. No, touching the 'Face of God' is something else both ontologically and epistemologically, altogether, and as far as I can see, it only partially involves our best efforts to make sense of it all.

See the difference?


I'm existentialist, and I incorporate Philosophical Hermeneutics into my own subjective evaluation of the world and of religion and thereby, via Critical Realism, I find myself drawn to and willing to 'leap after' the essence of the Christian faith, or more specifically, I am willing to bow before the concept of Jesus Christ as not only a historical personage, but as Lord and Savior. See? Mine is not the typical evangelical spiel that is often touted about by modern American, even Protestant, Christians who often rely upon a claim to rational assent via a supposed pure process of Evidentialism clothed upon a Foundationalist epistemological framework. So, of course it isn't 'logical' to assert the existence of God, but it is a subjectively reasonable act to do, most particularly since being rational and reasonable isn't by necessity to be equated purely with being 'logical.' Logic, in the case of religion, CANNOT reign ...

Quite frankly buddy, it's rather simple. You are either a Christian, or you are not. Many sects exist. Heck, there is one street near me, where I can drive down and literally see three opposing churches built directly next to one another. Yet, they all worship the same claimed God.

Getting to the meat and potatoes, and rummaging through all the 'philosophical jargon', in some capacity, you either accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, or you do not. Based upon your avatar, I hasten to conclude that you do. Am I wrong?

I again ask, and please ask for an answer which many here do not feel they need a secret decoder to translate :)

Can the conclusion, that there exists a 'creator' or 'divine agency' be concluded without violation of flawed reasoning? If so, I'm here to receive as such...
 
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cvanwey

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No, let's start with establishing why falsifiability is a necessary element of sound reasoning. You're making a claim here--you get to back it up. Why is it illogical to conclude that Julius Caesar existed if we cannot test this claim in a laboratory?

We can demonstrate the existence of humans. I would assume the claim is that Julius Caesar was a human.

Just like I do not reject the existence of a man named Jesus, whom claimed he was a Messiah.

Now can we get back to the OP?

Does there exist a sound method to conclude a 'causal agent' for our existence, without violating your reasoning in some manor?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Quite frankly buddy, it's rather simple. You are either a Christian, or you are not. Many sects exist. Heck, there is one street near me, where I can drive down and literally see three opposing churches built directly next to one another. Yet, they all worship the same claimed God.

Getting to the meat and potatoes, and rummaging through all the 'philosophical jargon', in some capacity, you either accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, or you do not. Based upon your avatar, I hasten to conclude that you do. Am I wrong?

I again ask, and please ask for an answer which many here do not feel they need a secret decoder to translate :)

Can the conclusion, that there exists a 'creator' or 'divine agency' be concluded without violation of flawed reasoning? If so, I'm here to receive as such...

Sure, concluding that there is a Creator can be done without violation of "flawed reasoning." I do it all of the time. ......................wait a minute! What??????????????????????

(Oh, but you meant to say "such and such," right?). ^_^
 
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