drinking... is it really not wrong????

[csheppard91]

I've read some discussion on drinking in this forum and there wasn't one reply condeming drinking... I don't see how it can be christian like, but I don't know how to disprove it. I have heard people saying that they drunk whine back then, but can you biblically prove the whine drunk in good faith (considering they don't get drunk from it) HAS been fermented?

 

[JVD]

Don't think you can prove it or not either way. But there is nothing in the Bible anywhere that says that it is wrong to drink alchoholic beverages. It does mentions wine a number of times and you kind of have to do literary gymnastics to say it was just grape juice.

The bible does indicate that it is wrong to get drunk.

On another note, it is not necessarily wrong to eat donuts, and other fattening food. But it is wrong to eat enought to become obese. (I'm currently trying to lose all my excess weight). I don't see how it is any less wrong to get drunk as it is to eat to excess. So long as the drunkenness doesn't lead to more sin.

I personally am a teetotaller...but do not condemn anyone who drinks.

 

[TheReasoner]

I've read some discussion on drinking in this forum and there wasn't one reply condeming drinking... I don't see how it can be christian like, but I don't know how to disprove it. I have heard people saying that they drunk whine back then, but can you biblically prove the whine drunk in good faith (considering they don't get drunk from it) HAS been fermented?

I think it depends on your culture and who you are.
In my family (as in uncles, aunts, etcetera) and my social circle we see alcohol as just something that's there. Like juice, only not to be drunk in the same way

I can have a beer or a glass of wine, but hardly ever more than one glass. I can have two, if I feel good that day and have eaten much (alcohol does not affect you as much then). If I am tired or hungry I don't drink at all.

If I had been in a group/setting which would have used alcohol to "binge", or get drunk. Or even drunk daily but not a lot, I would have said that it was not right. Because alcohol can be good, and it can be bad. Depending on your attitude towards it, and your surroundings alcohol can definitely be bad.

But alcohol per se is not bad at all. Sin is what tears down, right? Either you or others. What builds up is no sin. Right?
Depending on your social circumstances alcohol can build up - given you drink very little. And seldom.
Depending on social circumstances any amount of alcohol can also tear down. Examples of this is if you drink alongside people who consider alcohol synonymous with getting drunk - which I gather seems to be the normal perception in the US. Another would be among alcoholics, or people who have struggled extensively with alcohol on earlier points of their lives, or currently do so.

Physically a little alcohol is good for you. Physically a lot of alcohol is very bad for you.
Sociologically small amounts of alcohol is just like any other excuse for sitting down and chatting. When I have a glass of whiskey I only do so with friends. I stick to one glass. And I drink it as whiskey and indeed most alcohol should be drunk; I enjoy it over an extended period of time. The reason why I drink whiskey and not... Say, Pepsi, is that I like the taste of whiskey. And on rare occasions choose to spend a little extra money on something tasty.
I see nothing wrong with that, and in my setting it isn't wrong. If I were to be around AA members when I had a whiskey it would be wrong as it would tempt them. If it was among teenagers I would also skip it, depending on who those teenagers were.

[edit]Oh, and these 'rules' I have set down... They aren't really rules or laws I have written down. I just don't want to or feel like having a different relationship to alcohol. I do not want to be drunk. I do not want to drink often. I guess that comes with seeking the Lord, because at one point when my faith was all down the drain I was more tempted to use it as an escape for what hardships I encountered. I never did, but I was tempted.[/edit]

 

[OnEarth]

Did you know studies show that it is healthier to consume more alcohol then soda a day?

 

[TheReasoner]

Did you know studies show that it is healthier to consume more alcohol then soda a day?

It does not surprise me. Soda is very unhealthy.

However, I would not drink a bottle of beer a day. That is not very good for you I do not think. There are different types of alcoholics. One type is the type who get wasted drunk. Others are more silently addicted. They have a glass for dinner each day. They have one, and usually not more. You will not realize these people are addicted until you take it away from them...

I would advice against having a bottle of any alcoholic drink a day. I would also advice against a bottle of soda each day. It is harmful for you.

 

[ireallyluvjesus]

Actually, one drink of any kind of alcohol a day is good for your heart. Beer isn't particularly harmful in itself, it's just got a few calories.

 

[OnEarth]

It does not surprise me. Soda is very unhealthy.

However, I would not drink a bottle of beer a day. That is not very good for you I do not think. There are different types of alcoholics. One type is the type who get wasted drunk. Others are more silently addicted. They have a glass for dinner each day. They have one, and usually not more. You will not realize these people are addicted until you take it away from them...

I would advice against having a bottle of any alcoholic drink a day. I would also advice against a bottle of soda each day. It is harmful for you.

Very Good Point but one can be addicted to soda as well. Then you have the argument that Beer causes irrational decisions which is true but at the sametime drinking soda more then you drink beer a day is harming your holy temple. I think it is clear that addiction is more of a sin when it comes down to the question. Its obvious it is not sin but the addiction that can cause sin. I have a beer every 4 days or so. Its not to get drunk I just like the flavor of beer.

When it comes to sin the commandments are what you need to know. Most anything can be considered sin because to much of anything is not good. But that makes it wrong in instances but not a sin. As Yaweh told Moses every sin is equal. We have Jesus to forgive us for our sins and things that COULD be considered sin. Thank God for Jesus.

 

[TheReasoner]

Actually, one drink of any kind of alcohol a day is good for your heart. Beer isn't particularly harmful in itself, it's just got a few calories.

Look to the French though. Their livers are not tioo good, and they often drink daily.
I'm all for moderate/light drinking. But I myself would be careful with daily drinking.

Very Good Point but one can be addicted to soda as well. Then you have the argument that Beer causes irrational decisions which is true but at the sametime drinking soda more then you drink beer a day is harming your holy temple. I think it is clear that addiction is more of a sin when it comes down to the question. Its obvious it is not sin but the addiction that can cause sin. I have a beer every 4 days or so. Its not to get drunk I just like the flavor of beer.

Oh I know and agree. I think general junkfood is bordering to sin as well. It certainly tears you down. Junkfood increases hyperactivity. It decreases rationality, and is harmful for your body. As is soda and candy.
I never really understood candy. Dried fruit is just as tasty and much healthier. In fact, I think dried fruit and asorted nuts are far better than regular candy.
One should add to this that drinking beer does not make up for soda.
Soda is absolutely unhealthy. Beer is healthy, but only potentially unhealthy. As opposed to soda which isn't healthy at all.

When it comes to sin the commandments are what you need to know. Most anything can be considered sin because to much of anything is not good. But that makes it wrong in instances but not a sin. As Yaweh told Moses every sin is equal. We have Jesus to forgive us for our sins and things that COULD be considered sin. Thank God for Jesus.

Amen!

 

[shinbits]

I have heard people saying that they drunk whine back then, but can you biblically prove the whine drunk in good faith (considering they don't get drunk from it) HAS been fermented?

Well, first, drinking in excess is a sin, not just having a drink.

Second, the grapes were most likely fermented. If it wasn't, the grapes would spoil, and go to waiste.

Third, there was no juice or any other kind of beverages back then. Wine was the only choice. Even if they made juice, there would be no way to preserve it, and it would start to go bad in only a few hours.

 

[prophecystudent]

Drinking of alcoholic beverages is not a sin. In fact, if you will remember, Christ's very first miracle was to turn water into wine. There can be no question that it was alcoholic because someone commented on the superior quality of the wine served by the host. Something to the effect, most hosts serve their best wine first, saving the cheap stuff to the last when everyone is blitzed and won't know the difference. But, in this case, the host saved his best wine for the last.

Further,

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Seems to me that this does not show drinking a little alcohol to be a bad thing. The problems start when it becomes a controlling factor in our lives.

Fred

 

[constance]

Well, since they talked about getting drunk in the Bible, we can assume that wine was alcoholic. In Luke 1, about John the Baptist, it's said, "He is never to take wine or other fermented drink"

The fermenting process is discussed:

Luke 5

37And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. 38No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. 39And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.' "

Having a passing knowledge of the fermentation process, this is probably the strength of beer, which is a little weaker than wine.

The next logical step would be to see if alcoholic wine was used in communion.

Our answer is found in 1 Cor 11:

20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

How about 1 Timothy 5

23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Constance

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

i drink sometimes (maybe once or twice a week 2/3 beers max) , I don't have a set schedule on when I drink, but its always when I'm out somewhere. My blood however is 96% mountain dew.

 

[Wisdom's Child]

First some foundational scriptures...

Romans 14:13-14
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Romans 14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Titus 1:15-16
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Christians who live under the Power of Christ have the capability to do all things, because they do not allow those things to be a controling factor in their lives. They are also aware that they should abstain whenever they are in the presence of those who could be harmed or could encounter a stumbling block because of that action.
Drinking is not a sin for some, but can be a sin for others.
Moderate Drinking is fine if it is done in the right spirit, but drinking to the point of drunkeness is not Ok. The child of God should have the ability to subdue their flesh and overcome anything that seeks to take control over their lives.

Each brother and sister though must find for themselves that point of balance and control. If it takes abstenance then that is fine, they should not be judged by those who can drink moderately. Likewise those who can take a moderate drink or two should not be judged by those of abstenance for the drink. But the brother or sister that can drink should abstain out of respect for their kin who percieves a stumbilng block for themselves in the drinking.

Always be aware of your surroundings and who could be impacted by your acts and examples.

For example, when I meet with my friend who is an Episcopal Minister, we sit at the bar and have drinks when while we talk. When I visit another friend who is a Baptist, I ask for and enjoy his unsweetened Ice Tea with a slice of Lime, and I respect their soberiety. When I go out and witness in the local biker bar I drink non-alcoholic "near-beer" for the taste, and so that I can set an example while I fellowship without being judgemental of the action around me. Sinner need to know that there can still be a social life after salvation.

 

[Kelly]

Does anyone start one of these "we shouldn't do x" threads who does x?

Drinking and being drunk are two separate things. Beer and wine have health properties when drank in moderateion (1-2 measured drinks per day). Red wine lowers cholesterol, beer is good for the heart, and the yeast is good for your digestive system.

And the right wine or beer goes great with dinner.

 

[Super Gnat]

As an aside, it is rather unlikely that people were drinking grape juice in biblical times. Unless it's been specially treated, grape juice turns into wine in a very short time. The process that results in the unfermented grape juice we drink today was developed by Welch of Welch's Grape Juice in the 1800s.

 

[KEMMER]

It does not surprise me. Soda is very unhealthy.

However, I would not drink a bottle of beer a day. That is not very good for you I do not think. There are different types of alcoholics. One type is the type who get wasted drunk. Others are more silently addicted. They have a glass for dinner each day. They have one, and usually not more. You will not realize these people are addicted until you take it away from them...

I would advice against having a bottle of any alcoholic drink a day. I would also advice against a bottle of soda each day. It is harmful for you.

YOU MAY WANT TO LOOK AT COFFEE DRINKERS AS WELL FOR THE FACT THAT IF YOU TOOK THEIR COFFE AWAY YOU WOULD SEE THE GO IRATE.

AS FOR THE PERSON WHO IS ADDICTED TO THAT ONE DRINK A DAY WELL THEY ARE ONLY ADDICTED IF THEY CAN'T DO WITHOUT IT.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO JUST LOVE THE TASTE OF A BOTTLE OF BEER OR A GLASS OF WINE.

THE BIBLE IS VERY CLEAR ABOUT DRUNKENNESS.

MY CONSCIENCE IS CLEAR WHEN I HAVE A DRINK OR TWO OR THREE OR FOUR. AS LONG AS I AM NOT GIVEN TO IT IT'S O.K.

WHEN MARY ASKED JESUS TO TURN THE WATER INTO WINE, DO YOU THINK THAT IT WAS GRAPE JUICE.

COME ON PEOPLE, ALL WE NEED TO DO IS COUPLE OUR DRINKING WITH SELF CONTROL.

HAVING A DRINK IS A PRIVELEGE AND OUR LEGALISTIC CHURCHES NEED TO REALISE THAT THEY ABSTAIN DUE TO FEAR THAT THEY WILL BECOME ALCOHOLICS. THEY SHOULD NOT EXPECT THOSE WITH SELF CONTROL TO ABSTAIN FROM THINGS THAT THEY HAVE PROBLEMS WITH, OTHERWISE YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO A LOT OF OTHER THINGS.

FOR EXAMPLE IF I STRUGGLE WITH PORNOGRAPHY ON MY COMPUTER AND GOD TELLS ME I SHOULD GET RID OF MY INTERNET UNTIL I HAVE SELF CONTROL, DOES THIS MEAN ALL CHRISTIANS SHOULD GET RID OF THE INTERNET? OF COURSE NOT, IT'S HOW RESPONSIBLE YOU ARE WITH THAT WHICH CAN BRING ABOUT TEMPTATION OR BAD JUDGEMENT FROM YOURSELF. EACH ONE IS ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD ON JUDGEMENT DAY FOR THE WAY THEY CONDUCT THEIR LIVES.

IT'S QUITE SIMPLE REALLY.

LOVE KEMMER

 

[GK]

I think Romans 14 applies here very well. Those of us who believe drinking a sin should abstain from drinking, but we need to be careful not to condemn those who do. Those of who don't believe drinking a sin may enjoy in moderation, but we need to be careful not to judge those who do not.

 

[Kelly]

It's a courtesty thing. I'm not going to offer one of my homebrewed beers to a fellow brother unless I know his situation. Does he consider it sinful? Does he struggle with abuse?

I won't drink in front of him either, if he doesn't drink. Our pastor revealled in our membership class that while our communion is grape juice and no alcohol is allowed on church grounds, he has a glass of wine with dinner occasionally. I asked him later if he'd like a sample of my wares and gave him a variety 6 pack of some recent beers I had made (took it to his home).

 

[InnerPhyre]

Psalm 104:

Bless the LORD, my soul! LORD, my God, you are great indeed! You are clothed with majesty and glory,
2 robed in light as with a cloak. You spread out the heavens like a tent; 3 2 you raised your palace upon the waters. You make the clouds your chariot; you travel on the wings of the wind. 4 You make the winds your messengers; flaming fire, your ministers. 5 3 You fixed the earth on its foundation, never to be moved. 6 The ocean covered it like a garment; above the mountains stood the waters. 7 At your roar they took flight; at the sound of your thunder they fled. 8 They rushed up the mountains, down the valleys to the place you had fixed for them. 9 You set a limit they cannot pass; never again will they cover the earth. 10 You made springs flow into channels that wind among the mountains. 11 They give drink to every beast of the field; here wild asses quench their thirst. 12 Beside them the birds of heaven nest; among the branches they sing. 13 You water the mountains from your palace; by your labor the earth abounds. 14 You raise grass for the cattle and plants for our beasts of burden. You bring bread from the earth, 15 and wine to gladden our hearts, Oil to make our faces gleam, food to build our strength.

Does grape juice gladden your heart?

 

[GK]

Actually, Jesus is the one who gladdens my heart, whether the remembrance comes via grape juice, wine, bread, or anything else that causes me to pause and remember him.