Drinking? Is It ok?

[ebia]

[size=+1] Wine (fruit juice) has medical properties - vitamins, the water in the mediterranean was and is of poor quality. Paul was not advocating the use of alcohol which is a mild poisin (causing sclorosis of the liver), neither was Jesus giving people alcohol.
[/size]

Grape juice doesn't keep. It turns into wine. Without pasturization or freezing, you can't have grape juice except just after grape picking time.

neither was Jesus giving people alcohol.

How did they get drunk on it then?


Can you provide evidence that the greek word translated wine can mean grape juice (in any sense except as wine that hasn't finished fermenting yet)?

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

Grape juice doesn't keep. It turns into wine. Without pasturization or freezing, you can't have grape juice except just after grape picking time.

So how come you can buy grape juice in the supermarkets ?
There are and were numerous ways of storing grapes / syrup / juice:-
http://members.aol.com/RichClark7/pass/wine/wpreface.htm

How did they get drunk on it then?

Who says they got drunk at the wedding of Cana ?
Not my bible. Jesus gave them the pure blood of grapes, prophetic of His Spirit in the earthen vessels, not alcohol which represents, and is corruption.


Can you provide evidence that the greek word translated wine can mean grape juice (in any sense except as wine that hasn't finished fermenting yet)?[/QUOTE] See above article, esp message 4.
Until you get rid of your "heavy heart" (roverbs 31v6) by being filled with God's Spirit you will see alcohol as a benefit and seek to justify yourself.

 

[ebia]

So how come you can buy grape juice in the supermarkets ?

Because it's either sold very fast after pressing, frozen, filled full of preservatives or pasturised and/or sterilized by heat treatment. Your supermarket probably also makes use of the fact that grape harvest time occurs at different times of the year in different countries.

There are and were numerous ways of storing grapes / syrup / juice:-
http://members.aol.com/RichClark7/pass/wine/wpreface.htm

Refridgerating the grapes which works for a while if you can afford that much ice but is extraordinarily expensive when there is a cheap alternative (fermentation) that tastes much better (old grapes don't taste very good).

Pliny and others confirm that provisions laid up against sieges continued for a hundred years. Augustine Calmet (born 1672), in the "Dictionary of the Bible" says that the ancients possessed the secret of preserving wines SWEET throughout the year. If they were alcoholic, they would preserve themselves, but the peculiarity was preserving them sweet and unfermented.

Without looking up the quote, I imagine Pliny is refering to keeping the wine sweet, which is not easy.

The Bible says that "new wine is found in the cluster." Grape-juice will not ferment when the air is completely excluded.

True, but not practical. You'll introduce enough oxygen when you press the grapes.

Another way to preserve grape juice fresh is to slow boil it until it thickens. Since water boils at 212F, any alcohol present could not remain, since alcohol evaporates at 170F.

Another typically confused quote from that site. Is he trying to make a syrup from unfermented grape juice, or drive off the alcohol from wine? Either way, you'll stuff up the flavour. What evidence is there that the Hebrews practiced either of these for the purpose of making (drinking) fruit juice?

A third way is to simply filter the juice to deprive it of its [yeast], or ferment, thereby making the production of alcohol impossible. Yeast can also be nullified by adding oils that contain sulphur, such as oil of mustard.

A very tricky proceedure to balance, without stuffing up the flavour. What evidence is there that the Hebrews practiced either of these for the purpose of making (drinking) fruit juice?

Who says they got drunk at the wedding of Cana ?

What do you think "had too much to drink" means, that they needed to nip out to the toilet?

Not my bible. Jesus gave them the pure blood of grapes, prophetic of His Spirit in the earthen vessels, not alcohol which represents, and is corruption.

Can you provide evidence that the greek word translated wine can mean grape juice (in any sense except as wine that hasn't finished fermenting yet)?

See above article, esp message 4.

Doesn't address my question. I'm not sure what an excerpt from an old edition of Websters is supposed to prove, but it certainly doens't address a greek word.

Until you get rid of your "heavy heart" (roverbs 31v6) by being filled with God's Spirit you will see alcohol as a benefit and seek to justify yourself.

Reduced to "if you don't believe me you don't have the Holy Spirit" on only your second post?

 

[TheReasoner]

AllTalkNoAction, let's have a read, shall we...
1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Wine has documented good effects on blood and heart. It helps reduce the chances of bloodclots (or whatever they are called in English)

John 2 9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew; ) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

I hardly think "had too much to drink" means they were needing to go to the bathroom...

Ephesians 5 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

Note it does not say do not drink wine. It says you should not get drunk on it. Wine, with alcohol is healthy if drunk in small amounts. Neither too often nor too much, but some. Ant it tastes good. Liquor can also have a good function. If you have eaten bad food, you can reduce the effects this bad food will have on you, and thus avoid or reduce your food poisoning by having a shot of something very strong. Me, I would rather just avoid eating it though.

Non-alcoholic wine is a new invention, merely stating that the bible was speaking of non-alcoholic wine would be a mistake I believe. Alcohol brings a lot of bad with it when abused. So does anything that's abused though.

I drink, but never get drunk. I drink because it tastes good, and because it is healthy. But I drink very seldomly. Less than one glass a month is not a lot.

You state alcohol represents corruption and whatnot. And yes, it can. But not so much as money. And you don't live without that, do you? Money can be used for good. But love for money is the root of all evil (1. timothy 6:10)
The bible never makes such a powerful statement about wine. A quick search reveals that wine is mentioned directly 233 times in the bible. Money only 125. It is true that the bible mentions that the nazarene did not drink wine. And that was all well and good. An example to be followed maybe. But neither did they touch the dead. Nor have sex. Nor cut their hair. Nor kill. They abstained from a lot. And I will certainly have sex once married. I will touch my parents when they die, and definately cut my hair. None of these are any sins. But the Nazarene focused on God instead of the world through abstaining from these things.
That does not mean we should all do the same. Jesus didn't.

 

[ebia]

http://members.aol.com/RichClark7/pass/wine/wpreface.htm

Just spotted this:

Fermenting Wine. The yeast will only do its work if it is properly nourished (it needs nitrogen from the air, as well as the sugar,)

If he doesn't even know the difference between nitrogen and oxygen, that doesn't give much confidence in anything else.

Next time can you cite evidence from a reliable, scholarly source please?

 

[Rusticus]

From a food technology perspective:

Fermentation is just another way of preserving food.

Of course fermentation has always been used to preserve grape juice. The result is fermented grape juice: wine.

Non-fermentation ways of preserving grape juice only became available in the last hundred years or so.


From a Biblical interpretation perspecive:

If one believes that Wine is not Wine, then why not also believe that Resurrection is not Resurrection.



Think about it.

 

[holo]

It's pretty senseless to argue whether or not a believer can drink alcohol. It's certanily has nothing to do with the gospel, that's for sure.

 

[TheReasoner]

It's pretty senseless to argue whether or not a believer can drink alcohol. It's certanily has nothing to do with the gospel, that's for sure.

It is a phenomenon mostly restricted to the USA as far as I know... In basically all of the world Christian people dance, and drink. And are non-capitalists if they wish so. It's only in the USA as far as I know they insist on capitol punishment, that dancing is a sin (despite David dancing all nude) and that all alcohol is sinful and wrong no matter how much you drink. I also do not know of any other place where Christians are the ones who fight for a liberal arms policy.

 

[holo]

It's been a heated debate here in Norway too, I'm afraid. Not too long ago a guy I know was on TV saying outright that drinking wine is a sin.

 

[ebia]

It is a phenomenon mostly restricted to the USA as far as I know... In basically all of the world Christian people dance, and drink. And are non-capitalists if they wish so. It's only in the USA as far as I know they insist on capitol punishment, that dancing is a sin (despite David dancing all nude) and that all alcohol is sinful and wrong no matter how much you drink. I also do not know of any other place where Christians are the ones who fight for a liberal arms policy.

The guns thing does seem to be particularly American, but I'm afraid the rest isn't. You might have more of them over there, but all over the world there are Christians who think God wants them to be miserable but rich, despite all the biblical evidence towards the opposite.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

It is a phenomenon mostly restricted to the USA as far as I know... In basically all of the world Christian people dance, and drink. And are non-capitalists if they wish so. It's only in the USA as far as I know they insist on capitol punishment, that dancing is a sin (despite David dancing all nude) and that all alcohol is sinful and wrong no matter how much you drink. I also do not know of any other place where Christians are the ones who fight for a liberal arms policy.

Off topic, but since you state it:
You may wish to re-read that account and seek an elder's explanation. I don't think you understand what king David actually did - there are various meanings of what is called 'nude'.

 

[TheReasoner]

Off topic, but since you state it:
You may wish to re-read that account and seek an elder's explanation. I don't think you understand what king David actually did - there are various meanings of what is called 'nude'.

hehe
Well, whatever it was, I wouldn't do it
Especially as I can't dance at all

 

[TheReasoner]

The guns thing does seem to be particularly American, but I'm afraid the rest isn't. You might have more of them over there, but all over the world there are Christians who think God wants them to be miserable but rich, despite all the biblical evidence towards the opposite.

yep. We have many of those as well. Sad

 

[intricatic]

I've never had a relationship destroyed by drinking... I think, like all things, it must be responsibly. Drinking is not really a moral question until it becomes a incumberance in our relationships with other people, and most importantly, our relationship with God. If done in a mind of responsibility, it's not bad.

 

[Skinster007]

Three things Christians don't want to give up and always become a huge debate, Drinking, tattoos and secular music. Is drinking a glass of wine bad? Probably not. Is getting drunk bad? Of course. The line between sober and drunk is blurred to say the least. How many beers before your mind is being affected? No one will answer it the same so it's smarter to stay away from the alcohol.

 

[intricatic]

Three things Christians don't want to give up and always become a huge debate, Drinking, tattoos and secular music. Is drinking a glass of wine bad? Probably not. Is getting drunk bad? Of course. The line between sober and drunk is blurred to say the least. How many beers before your mind is being affected? No one will answer it the same so it's smarter to stay away from the alcohol.

I don't debate it, but when people try to be condescending about it, it tends to rile me up, even though I don't participate in sinful activities (as much as possible).
If you're presuming that someone who drinks is less likely to be saved than someone who dosn't, or someone who listens to secular music less likely than one who only listens to classical compositions and Christian worship music, I'm afraid I have to disagree, but like I said, I won't debate it because it's a senseless thing to get over-wrought about.
What choices you make in these areas are your choices. Likewise for others, whether it's sinful in God's sight, the people doing these things will know better than you do. God won't remain silent if He's truely working in their lives.

 

[QuantaCura]

Three things Christians don't want to give up and always become a huge debate, Drinking, tattoos and secular music. Is drinking a glass of wine bad? Probably not. Is getting drunk bad? Of course. The line between sober and drunk is blurred to say the least. How many beers before your mind is being affected? No one will answer it the same so it's smarter to stay away from the alcohol.

I agree.

From Scripture we can see that drinking itself is not sinful, but drunkenness is. It's all about moderation. I personally don't drink at all. St. Augustine states my reasoning well, "Total abstinance is easier than perfect moderation."

 

[daveleau]

Some say that Achohol is bad Some Say it is good?
But Is it really good for a christian to be drinking
Some say that it is just like cola....cause both do harm your body....
its like obessedy it harms your body also.
Some say ...well jesus drank so why can' we?
so what is it?
is it like cola, choclate bars?
Bad or good?
Personally I think that its bad....
Because who would wanna drink something that destroys famlies and crushes relationships.....

I want u guys to answer me please!

Drinking alcohol to excess is definitely bad because Scripture discusses that explicitly. Drinking in moderation does not destroy families or crush relationships. Getting drunk all the time does, but there is a large percentage of Christians that drink in moderation and do not drink to get drunk. It was Jewish custom to drink wine at festivals and at meals. And the idea that it was non-alcoholic is incorrect because Christ spoke of fermentation in His parables of the wine skins. Christ never used sin as an example in His parables.

A second issue comes into play...what if a person understanding the freedom that Christ gave us, drinks in moderation but runs across a more legalistic Christian who binds himself with man-made laws of abstinence from alcohol? Is the free Christian who is supported by Scripture to drink in front of the legalistic Christian? NO! The free Christian must restrict himself because in our freedom and maturity in Christ we are not to do anything that would harm the faith of the less mature. Romans 14:21

So, since I attend a Southern Baptist church, I do not drink because I do not want by brethren in my church that are tied to Southern Baptist tradition of not drinking to fall. They may see me doing good but then see me drinking (which is perfectly fine Scripturally) and think less of my testimony or react in ways that lessens their faith.

 

[TheReasoner]

Three things Christians don't want to give up and always become a huge debate, Drinking, tattoos and secular music. Is drinking a glass of wine bad? Probably not. Is getting drunk bad? Of course. The line between sober and drunk is blurred to say the least. How many beers before your mind is being affected? No one will answer it the same so it's smarter to stay away from the alcohol.

I have a simple rule;
One glass. Then stop.

Saves you getting drunk. OUr laws here prohibit driving even after that, and I suggest you do follow that even where you live. It's just safer.

 

[holo]

Nobody has ever been hurt by NOT drinking, but a lot of people have been hurt by christians who demand everybody has the same alcohol intake as them in order to be "good christians".