Dragonball Super - (Up To) Tournament of Power

[Ygrene Imref]

Warning to all watching Dragon Ball Super only on Toonami: this thread will contain MASSIVE spoilers.

This thread may also contain MASSIVE spoilers for those watching the English dub, and up to date.



Ok.


So far, Dragonball Super has been amazing. Animation issues aside, there has been some extremely rewarding character development, and awesome arcs. By far, my favorite arc was the Zamasu arc. I love that Toriyama has gotten over his hate for Vegeta, and has finally made him a rival of Goku - one who is (more or less) on par with Goku.

This is a big deal, because all throughout DB and DBZ, Goku was clearly the strongest protagonist - save, maybe Gohan in the Cell saga, and Mystic Gohan in the Buu Saga. Vegeta was usually constant #2 - and even bumped by "weaklings" like Piccolo, and kid Gohan.


Now, we can say Vegeta is at least Goku's equal (not counting technique like Genkai Dama, instant transmission, and kaioken fist.) Goku and Vegeta are the only mortals, it seems, in the multiverse with the power of gods. I am excited to see how the gods will react when they see Vegeta, too, can turn Blue.


Concerning this tournament of power - it seems like it is going to be amazing. Already, I love

Vermouth/Liquor and Harloquine (Universe 11 god of destruction and his angel)
Universe 9 Supreme kai
Heles (universe 2 goddess of destruction)
The 3-tailed Fox god

I don't for Toppo, or his crew. Of course I have always loved Beerus, Whis, Champa and Vados.

I am curious how people think this will play out. I do not trust Daishinkan, and at least one of the Zeno. And, I am starting to question Goku a bit. He is more like the Manga character now (not a superhero, just likes fighting strong people.) But, when Toppo called him evil and he responded by saying it was "interesting," I thought that was suspicious.

Looking forward to others' thought!

 

[muichimotsu]

Zenoh in general is possibly just a puppet for Grand Priest and whatever machinations he has with the angels, since they're excluded from the consequences of the Intra Universe Tournament, though I wonder if that will be rescinded later due to Goku being able to sway Zenoh with the similar child like mentality and logic regarding fighting. The Super Dragon Balls being introduced created that kind of conflict in regards to a being that's only a few steps from a monotheistic god in its qualities.

The Zamasu arc just created more headaches in terms of the time travel plots whereas the original arc that introduced it left it relatively simple without getting into parallel universes and the nature of time travel with regards to its ontology and metaphysics. It was a nice way to bring in the Mafuuba, at least, and hint at Trunks getting stronger, though if time travel is forbidden, he and Mai being in Universe 7 now because of that future universe being wiped out makes them fugitives in a way.

I wonder if the 4 universes that are excluded from the tournament will also be involved as antagonists, since they aren't at risk of elimination so they can devote their time to taking down Universe 7

Toppo and whoever is fighting in the tournament proper from the same universe, as we see in the opening, seem like they'll be an interesting foil in their use of Aku Soku Zan (which just immediately makes me remember Rurouni Kenshin's Hajime Saitou, who used the same creed, down to the Japanese) against people who are more flexible in their morality without sacrificing a sense of altruism that they both seem to have to some degree, albeit Aku Soku Zan leads to more deontological or utilitarian ethics rather than virtue ethics, which is more Japanese in nature.

People give Goku so much flak for his being at the core of the Universe Tournament being a thing, but seem to forget that the introduction of Zen Oh should've already given them cause for a greater concern, because you basically have a 5 year old child (which is interesting with ZenOh's voice actor being the same one who voices Chii in Chi's Sweet Home, who has a very similar level of understanding, focused on fun and such) in charge of deciding whether a universe is destroyed or not, as well as having authority over pretty much everyone, it seems.

Grand Priest being indicated as one of the 5 strongest people overall makes me worried in the potential fights, though if Goku and Vegeta get Super Saiyan Rose in the future, they could stand some chance, potentially. Heck, I'd like to see the angels fight more seriously, though that would involve them ignoring their own limits by universal law, which I find a bit odd in them being able to use a limited form of time travel when it's forbidden otherwise. At least they established a fair point with time travel rules: you can travel to the future all you want, but going to the past is where great danger lies.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Zenoh in general is possibly just a puppet for Grand Priest and whatever machinations he has with the angels, since they're excluded from the consequences of the Intra Universe Tournament, though I wonder if that will be rescinded later due to Goku being able to sway Zenoh with the similar child like mentality and logic regarding fighting. The Super Dragon Balls being introduced created that kind of conflict in regards to a being that's only a few steps from a monotheistic god in its qualities.

The Zamasu arc just created more headaches in terms of the time travel plots whereas the original arc that introduced it left it relatively simple without getting into parallel universes and the nature of time travel with regards to its ontology and metaphysics. It was a nice way to bring in the Mafuuba, at least, and hint at Trunks getting stronger, though if time travel is forbidden, he and Mai being in Universe 7 now because of that future universe being wiped out makes them fugitives in a way.

I wonder if the 4 universes that are excluded from the tournament will also be involved as antagonists, since they aren't at risk of elimination so they can devote their time to taking down Universe 7

Toppo and whoever is fighting in the tournament proper from the same universe, as we see in the opening, seem like they'll be an interesting foil in their use of Aku Soku Zan (which just immediately makes me remember Rurouni Kenshin's Hajime Saitou, who used the same creed, down to the Japanese) against people who are more flexible in their morality without sacrificing a sense of altruism that they both seem to have to some degree, albeit Aku Soku Zan leads to more deontological or utilitarian ethics rather than virtue ethics, which is more Japanese in nature.

People give Goku so much flak for his being at the core of the Universe Tournament being a thing, but seem to forget that the introduction of Zen Oh should've already given them cause for a greater concern, because you basically have a 5 year old child (which is interesting with ZenOh's voice actor being the same one who voices Chii in Chi's Sweet Home, who has a very similar level of understanding, focused on fun and such) in charge of deciding whether a universe is destroyed or not, as well as having authority over pretty much everyone, it seems.

Grand Priest being indicated as one of the 5 strongest people overall makes me worried in the potential fights, though if Goku and Vegeta get Super Saiyan Rose in the future, they could stand some chance, potentially. Heck, I'd like to see the angels fight more seriously, though that would involve them ignoring their own limits by universal law, which I find a bit odd in them being able to use a limited form of time travel when it's forbidden otherwise. At least they established a fair point with time travel rules: you can travel to the future all you want, but going to the past is where great danger lies.

Goku's character was saved by plot - Zeno was going to destroy the universe anyway.

Blah... would be interesting to see an arc wit Goku going from sure hero to a questionable problem for everyone naturally - while he ramains completely ignorant of any moral or ethics issues in his behavior.

Vegeta is the most developed character from Z; it would be nice to see how he responds to all of this. It was only about six seconds long, but Vegeta choosing to forego TRAINING for his child is incredible for him. I fear he will once again fall way behind Goku, although I would hope that especially given his developed character the possible destruction of the universe would drive him to win no matter what...


(Crossing fingers for a clear, measurable surpass of Goku by Vegeta.)

 

[muichimotsu]

It's not like Goku's ever been that perceptive in terms of social faux pas and such, he was raised in the mountains by a martial arts master and seemed to have no other human contact until he was 13 when he met Bulma. The guy's borderline feral child in that respect.

Vegeta was always an interesting anti hero type character, though whether the intention of Toriyama was to continue the series beyond Z is debatable, considering how he washed his hands of GT and is involved with Super potentially out of obligation to not have his vision ruined by others nearly as much. The guy should've been left to do other stuff, but it feels so bad that he's been drawn into this in a similar way to editorial pressure to continue the series beyond where he wanted to end it multiple times.

I do like that they're maintaining continuity, because I was worried they'd just ignore Bra's existence, since she was only noted to exist in the anime at the end (not sure if the manga even acknowledged her at all in its conclusion, since it's possible the time skip was animal original. But the time frame fits with when she's born, so it shows that Toriyama is putting effort into this in spite of it feeling like he's doing a similar thing with how the manga was: flying by the seat of his pants in terms of plot developments such as time travel and the multiple universe model.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I do like that they're maintaining continuity, because I was worried they'd just ignore Bra's existence, since she was only noted to exist in the anime at the end (not sure if the manga even acknowledged her at all in its conclusion, since it's possible the time skip was animal original. But the time frame fits with when she's born, so it shows that Toriyama is putting effort into this in spite of it feeling like he's doing a similar thing with how the manga was: flying by the seat of his pants in terms of plot developments such as time travel and the multiple universe model.

Toriyama has a horrible tendency to just plain forget details.

He BARELY brought back zenkai with Black - although I doubt that was about zenkai and more about Zamasu being a prodigious god (otherwise, Vegeta should have had no need for the room of spirit and time to get a big boost.) Some say he ended it after Frieza saga, some say he simply forgot. The Manga may be different.

In the manga, SS2 Trunks was as strong as SSJ3 Goku. But Bra is supposed to be younger than Pan - in the Manga even in DBZ. It was sort of a gaffe that Pan looked so much smaller than "Bulla," but Bra is younger in the manga.

I agree it shows that Toriyama was dragged into Super in order to keep Toei and his vision in check. I think one of the original 18 universes was the GT universe - at least that is the rumor (that it is canon that the GT universe is gone forever - if it was ever to be considered canon anyway.)

Maybe instead of twin universes, there were triplet universes (1-12-13, 2-11-14, 3-10-15, 4-9-16, 5-8-17, 6-7-18), with universe 18 being the GT universe including characters like Broly.

 

[muichimotsu]

When did Trunks achieve SS2? I know he got close, but he was too slow to beat Cell

Bra and Pan are roughly a year apart, I think, if I remember the chronology

I think they briefly established there were 18 universes in the past and Zen Oh destroyed 6 of them on some caprice, so GT being one of them wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

Goku Black and Future Zamasu made a good team in the vein of Dende helping Vegeta in the Namek arc after he got beat up, because healing magic

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I think we are supposed to assume he got SSJ2 (real) when he fought Dabura in his timeline. He said he asked god for help, and god listened in his timeline.

At the very least, he was USSJ during cell saga, so maybe he trained when he went back to his timeline.

I think I remember hearing bra was one year younger also. It was a small enough age difference to make their size difference ridiculous. You would think bra would be the smaller framed one given Vegeta''s size. I hope they allow the females to go SSJ - Toei specifically forbade pan from going SSJ...

Black and Zamasu were ubstopable separate, which is ironic.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I have a big feeling/hope that Vegeta is going to come with the clutch.

Despite the spoilers for the next episodes, we know he will be participating in the tournament, and he will fight someone who is as strong as his SSJ!

That brings me to another thing about Trunks, the Saiyans, and their recent opponents.

Frost is much stronger than Frieza ever was. He may even be stronger than Final Form King Cold. His final form required SSJ Goku to fight him, and cheat to win. Base Goku at this point was already ridicukous, because Vegeta and Goku were gods by then.

Altbough, thinking about it Frieze may still be much stronger, as Frost admitted he used his third form as assault form - which means he trained even a little bit (but, he had all those battles with the universe 6 saiyans.) That means he doesn't get as strong as the prodigious Frieza, who became godlike after four months.

Imagine if Frieza trained against Namek Goku or Vegeta, then Buu in the room of spirit and time... he would probably be powerful enough to fight Beerus.

Or, Toriyama could have completely forgotten about power scales (possible, and probable.)

 

[Ygrene Imref]

It's official: Frieza will be asked to join the ToP team U7!

 

[muichimotsu]

It's an interesting twist, though I see a lot of anger about Buu being thrown to the side again. If nothing else, Buu has still been so childish in his mentality that Freeza's easier to negotiate with. And his power can still grow, not to mention we don't know fully about how Freeza could train each form to be different in how it works in combat.

As for how they convince him to participate, they can 1) revive him with earth dragon balls and 2) have Beerus and Whis promise that he'll be the candidate for the next God of Destruction of Universe 7, but he can't do any unsanctioned destruction and has to train with them.

 

[AntiVillain]

The Future Trunks Saga jumped the shark, and Zamasu was an unpleasant Gary Stu of a villain.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

It's an interesting twist, though I see a lot of anger about Buu being thrown to the side again. If nothing else, Buu has still been so childish in his mentality that Freeza's easier to negotiate with. And his power can still grow, not to mention we don't know fully about how Freeza could train each form to be different in how it works in combat.

As for how they convince him to participate, they can 1) revive him with earth dragon balls and 2) have Beerus and Whis promise that he'll be the candidate for the next God of Destruction of Universe 7, but he can't do any unsanctioned destruction and has to train with them.

Spoiler

They used baba to do it.

But you are right, they also give earth dragon balls to frieza as a reward. He claims he wants it for revival; that is bad enough. He trained for four months and attained godly power and a transformation. He is more prodigious than Vegeta, who jumped to god power without help, or the ritual.

Vegeta attained god form red on his own in the Manga also, and then he uses "switch transformation," fighting in red form and instantaneously flaring up power using blue. It is very similar to the Kaio-Ken, and could be used in the anime to make Vegeta "on par" with Goku and his perfected Kaioken Blue.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Dp

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Interesting...

SSJ Bezerker Kale

SSJ2 Caulifla

Ultimate Gohan (They Made Gohan Great Again!)

And, apparently Krillin is getting a boost.


And yes, I believe Daishinkan is pulling major strings. This is his show that just so happens to entertain "the kids," Zen-Oh Sama. He literally gave "the children" a "godPad" to play with, along with the babysitters, while Daishinkan is playing chess with universes.

This may actually make the Goku Black/Zamasu saga look pedestrian in comparison. I can see a battle of gods and angels coming...

Though, I suspect that isn't a unique conclusion drawn given the events so far.


Gohan's little teamwork formation makes them look weak. And, why did NONE of their attacks do any damage? Either they are DOOMED, or they aren't using their full power - which may be a severe handicap. I understand the element of surprise, but they can't mess around; seven universes will be destroyed. And, one of this is going to be destroyed in a couple of episodes.

 

[zay]

So what'd you guys think of ep 100? In one move, beserker gets taken out-yet Goku got knocked around in ssj blue-should br interestin! As far as Krillin...the boy did good for a sec, but the own count went up again!

 

[Ygrene Imref]

So what'd you guys think of ep 100? In one move, beserker gets taken out-yet Goku got knocked around in ssj blue-should br interestin! As far as Krillin...the boy did good for a sec, but the own count went up again!

Allegedly, Goku and Vegeta in Blue have better ki control, so they can fight without obliterating someone. A few people mentioned that he didnt take any damage from Bezerker Kale. I think they are trying to canonize Broly with Kale - the face dragging in the rocks scene with Goku was straight from the movies.

I am positive that Goku could have destroyed Kale, as well as Vegeta. I hope Vegeta isnt disrespected this arc; word is that Toriyama hates "the Vegeta character."

As far as Hit, Toppo, Dipso, General, Goku, True Golden Frieza, Jiren and Vegeta, I think that that is the order of who is weakest to strongest. Yep, I hope Vegeta is stronger than Jiren - he spent time in the Room of Spirit and Time, and trained extensively with Whis. (I think Whis is trolling Vegeta about him being behind in "sets/katas," because Whis always had an affinity to Vegeta. Beerus was drawn to Goku.)

 

[Ygrene Imref]

So what'd you guys think of ep 100? In one move, beserker gets taken out-yet Goku got knocked around in ssj blue-should br interestin! As far as Krillin...the boy did good for a sec, but the own count went up again!

The scene where the Zen-Oh Sama(s) literally "Ctrl+Alt+Del" an entire universe was extremely unnerving - especially with the music, the way U9 Kaioshin screamed to Zen-Oh, and how they immediately said, "YES!"and then erased the entire universe.

Wow...

Like Goku said, "If Zen-Oh wants to erase something, it's gonna get erased."

 

[zay]

The scene where the Zen-Oh Sama(s) literally "Ctrl+Alt+Del" an entire universe was extremely unnerving - especially with the music, the way U9 Kaioshin screamed to Zen-Oh, and how they immediately said, "YES!"and then erased the entire universe.

Wow...

Like Goku said, "If Zen-Oh wants to erase something, it's gonna get erased."

So you got Vegeta as your strongest? Interesting!! I'm glad that AT has Vegeta and now Gohan as true counterparts again. As a Goku fan, ironically i want to see him in a season where he's not the strongest-it'd offer up a ton of possibilities, even while db is a series that is a bit less serious plot-wise in comparison to others.

Also, to see the z fighters truly shine again geeked me out fo'sho! And Frieza....getting stronger thru visualization alone.......ridiculous! In a goooood way!

 

[Ygrene Imref]

So you got Vegeta as your strongest? Interesting!! I'm glad that AT has Vegeta and now Gohan as true counterparts again. As a Goku fan, ironically i want to see him in a season where he's not the strongest-it'd offer up a ton of possibilities, even while db is a series that is a bit less serious plot-wise in comparison to others.

Also, to see the z fighters truly shine again geeked me out fo'sho! And Frieza....getting stronger thru visualization alone.......ridiculous! In a goooood way!

I'm guessing Hell counts time like the hyperbolic time chamber, but yes that is crazy. I actually like frieza now that he is back - probably because I know Vegeta, Goku, Beerus and/or Whis can destroy him. He handled Sidra's destruction ball, but that was more to label True Golden Frieza as on SSG level.

When Frieza said he was gentle as water and fierce as whatever... and he showed one blue and one red energy ball in each hand - it was an allusion to Vegeta's progress in the Manga. Vegeta doesn't get a new transformation, but he masters switching from SSG (red) to SSGSS (blue) for power, and then back to SSG to conserve max energy - all in an instant. I think that is way more valuable, and it would finally give Vegeta a technique on par with instant transmission, and kaioken.

I think Vegeta is going to be stronger than Hit, and he will be stronger than Jiren. Vegeta never really loses because of power alone; his arrogance makes him focus on his power rather than arsenal of techniques. Goku and vegeta, I believe are either the same or vegeta is stronger (like piccolo with actual power.)

I do think the entire tournament will be interrupted by an "angelic" message...

 

[zay]

In a way, I hope we dont get another transformation for a minute. One thing i miss is the true accomplishment and awe of the ssj. That's another reason why i'm glad to see Gohan's resurgence.

I agree-i dont know what's goona happen-but i got a feeling someone super strong is on the horizon.....maybe stronger than Zeno..... :0