Dr. Ben Carson, a great man indeed.

[AV1611VET]

But, your counter point ...

I did not bring Thalidomide up as a 'counter point'.

I brought Thalidomide up as an example of what you were talking about.

Do you remember saying this:

I know all sorts of doctors who believe in truly, mind bogglingly stupid stuff.

I thought Thalidomide was an excellent example; so I asked you this:

Do you know any that used to believe Thalidomide was a prenatal wonder drug?

I'm still wondering if your answer is YES or NO.

 

[Dizredux]

So doctors believe in "mind boggling stupid stuff;" and when I bring Thalidomide up as an example ... it's a 'non sequitur'?

Sometimes I would swear that if someone said the sun was shining, you would respond "Thalidomide". If memory serves, at one time you promised not to bring it up any more.

I did a search forum on Thalidomide and got 461 hits.

Dizredux

 

[Gene2memE]

I did not bring Thalidomide up as a 'counter point'.

I brought Thalidomide up as an example of what you were talking about.

Then you made a mistake.

The use of Thalidomide as a sedative and agent for controlling nausea/morning sickness and its subsequent rapid withdrawal is not an example of doctors holding stupid and/or irrational beliefs in spite of contrary evidence.

What it is an example of is what happens when there is poor understanding of human biochemistry, insufficient regulatory oversight and a lack of proper testing protocols (all of which has changed since the mid 1950s).

Bringing up Thalidomide as an example of doctors believing stupid stuff, with a statement implying they believed it was a "prenatal wonder drug", is either ill-informed or deliberately misleading. In both cases, it is a strawman, attacking something that you have provided no evidence of doctors believing.

The company that made Thalidomide marketed it as sedative and then as a "wonder drug" for nausea and a number of other cold and flu symptoms.

And it was actually effective as a antiemetic drug. The tragedy of Thalidomide's side effects was the result of a combination of lack of clinical trials and general ignorance about the impact of various substances on fetal development, as well as greed on the part of its makers.

What happened when doctors were presented with evidence about the effects of Thalidomide on unborn infants?

The stopped using it.

They looked at the evidence, followed where it led, updated their knowledge and changed their modes of behaviour, resulting in a ban on its use on pregnant women.

It was a lesson painfully learned, but it shows what happens when people are open to changing their minds due to evidence.

I'm still wondering if your answer is YES or NO.

No.

All the doctors I have day-to-day contact with are under 45. As use of Thalidomide was withdrawn from sale in Australia in 1961, none of them were even alive when it was being prescribed.

Here's an article about the drug and its history from an Australian perspective:

The thalidomide story - Sydney Publishing

 

[AV1611VET]

If memory serves, at one time you promised not to bring it up any more.

I promised Cabal that if he would read Galatians 3:26, I would never even mention a certain NASA tragedy again -- and I haven't.

When Sayre joined, and I brought up Thalidomide, she went ballistic; so I made her the same promise.

She refused ... and ended up leaving instead.

 

[Dizredux]

I promised Cabal that if he would read Galatians 3:26, I would never even mention a certain NASA tragedy again -- and I haven't.

When Sayre joined, and I brought up Thalidomide, she went ballistic; so I made her the same promise.

She refused ... and ended up leaving instead.

As memory serves again, one of the admins were asking for things members did not like on the forum the Thalidomide issue was brought up and you promised not to use it again.

Dizredux

 

[AV1611VET]

Bringing up Thalidomide as an example of doctors believing stupid stuff, with a statement implying they believed it was a "prenatal wonder drug", is either ill-informed or deliberately misleading.

Sorry -- I don't believe that.

If you think I'm going to think that scientists didn't think Thalidomide was a prenatal wonder drug at one time, then you're wrong.

I have a feeling that -- had Thalidomide truly done its job sans ill side-effects -- scientists would be taking the credit for having created a "wonder drug."

I could be wrong, but it won't be the first time.

 

[AV1611VET]

As memory serves again, one of the admins were asking for things members did not like on the forum the Thalidomide issue was brought up and you promised not to use it again.

Dizredux

71

 

[Loudmouth]

Is this a serious question? Never met a doctor who wasn't trained in biology.

Did you think before typing this out?

I have yet to see a medical doctor that was trained in comparative genomics, molecular biology, vertebrate anatomy, or cladistics as part of medical school. The only way they learn these things is if they pursue a PhD independent of their medical degree.

A medical doctor is to a biologist what a car mechanic is to an engineer. They aren't the same thing. You can have an undergraduate degree in physics with nothing more than Bio 101 and still get into med school, and graduate med school without learning the first thing about evolution.

That you think a medical degree qualifies a person to talk about evolution says a lot about your misunderstandings of both evolution and biology.

 

[Loudmouth]

Sorry -- I don't believe that.

If you think I'm going to think that scientists didn't think Thalidomide was a prenatal wonder drug at one time, then you're wrong.

I have a feeling that -- had Thalidomide truly done its job sans ill side-effects -- scientists would be taking the credit for having created a "wonder drug."

I could be wrong, but it won't be the first time.

All we need to do to convince you that Thalidomide is a prenatal wonder drug is write it down in a book. Heaven knows that you will ignore all of the science.

 

[bhsmte]

I have yet to see a medical doctor that was trained in comparative genomics, molecular biology, vertebrate anatomy, or cladistics as part of medical school. The only way they learn these things is if they pursue a PhD independent of their medical degree.

A medical doctor is to a biologist what a car mechanic is to an engineer. They aren't the same thing. You can have an undergraduate degree in physics with nothing more than Bio 101 and still get into med school, and graduate med school without learning the first thing about evolution.

That you think a medical degree qualifies a person to talk about evolution says a lot about your misunderstandings of both evolution and biology.

Pretty accurate.

Doctors are quite intelligent when it comes to human physiology that matches their specialty, but their training on the same is so focused, there isn't much room for the in depth biology courses and or knowledge you speak of.

 

[Split Rock]

Dr. Ben carson. - YouTube Such a reasonable and intelligent human being, wouldn't you agree?

Can't say I agree from that video. Not only does he use the old, "I'm complex, my god must have made me" argument, he even digs up the "tornado/hurricane" passes through a junkyard and makes a 747" argument. I'm not impressed.

His treatment of the Big Bang is terrible. First, it was not an "explosion" (a common misunderstanding among laymen, but not one he should have made), but an expansion of space/ time. Secondly, the laws of thermodynamics were not in effect until the universe came into being. Since then, yes, net entropy has increased. And finally, what is "perfect" about our universe?

 

[Split Rock]

I did not bring Thalidomide up as a 'counter point'.

I brought Thalidomide up as an example of what you were talking about.

.

Actually, you bring up thalidomide whenever you get the chance, and even sometimes when you don't.

 

[AV1611VET]

All we need to do to convince you that Thalidomide is a prenatal wonder drug is write it down in a book. Heaven knows that you will ignore all of the science.

If I remember Wikipedia correctly, scientists pressured Frances Kelsey to accept Thalidomide; and she refused, stating that, in her opinion, further testing was necessary.

I'd venture to say that she wasn't too high on scientists' list.

 

[lost999]

Can't say I agree from that video. Not only does he use the old, "I'm complex, my god must have made me" argument, he even digs up the "tornado/hurricane" passes through a junkyard and makes a 747" argument. I'm not impressed.

More reasonable than, "I'm not complex, nature made me."

His treatment of the Big Bang is terrible. First, it was not an "explosion" (a common misunderstanding among laymen, but not one he should have made), but an expansion of space/ time. Secondly, the laws of thermodynamics were not in effect until the universe came into being. Since then, yes, net entropy has increased. And finally, what is "perfect" about our universe?

Should they re-name it the Big Expansion?

 

[AV1611VET]

Actually, you bring up thalidomide whenever you get the chance, and even sometimes when you don't.

Yup --

 

[Strathos]

Isn't this the guy who said that the ACA is worse for America than slavery was?

No matter what your opinion on the relative merits of that law, I think we can agree that's nonsense...

 

[PsychoSarah]

If I remember Wikipedia correctly, scientists pressured Frances Kelsey to accept Thalidomide; and she refused, stating that, in her opinion, further testing was necessary.

I'd venture to say that she wasn't too high on scientists' list.

That would be because business + science can sometimes equal corruption. This is especially the case with medicine, which all too often pharmaceutical companies will try to speed up the development and testing of drugs beyond what is safe.

 

[AV1611VET]

That would be because business + science can sometimes equal corruption.

I agree with that 100%, but what specifically triggered the business side of Thalidomide that the product was ready for marketing?

Here's a cheap scenario:

Business: What's that you got there?
Science: C[sub]13[/sub]H[sub]10[/sub]N[sub]2[/sub]O[sub]4[/sub]
Business: What's it do?
Science: It's a sedative that cures anxiety, insomnia, gastritis, and tension.
Business: Interesting, let's get it on the market.
Science: Sounds like a plan -- check, please. We need to catch a cab to Merck & Co. We're working on C[sub]17[/sub]H[sub]14[/sub]O[sub]4[/sub]S for them.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed at OP request