Doubting Believer

selfinflikted said:

Perhaps bhstme (sp?) would know. He's kinda the resident psych, even though I don't think he's been around for a few days.

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Maybe if he shows up.

Perhaps negative reinforcement fits the bill in a neutral sense (I asked Received actually, it was quick and easy).

revrobor said:

I think before I discuss this any further with you you must at least make an effort to have a personal relationship with the One who inspired the Bible. Then you will understand what He is saying about women.

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While I agree that having a personal relationship with the One who inspired the Bible, you must also make an effort to realize that the One also inspired the physical world. A person needs to understand the physical world as well as the Bible. You state it well when you say the Bible was inspired (not written by) God. The Bible was written in an era so foreign to ours that most modern era believers would not even recognize the society it was written to address. It was an extremely horrible time to be alive. Every day was a struggle to have enough to eat, your lifespan was 35 years so you lived with the fear of death every day. You were heavily oppressed by the government who was a foreign power attempting to destroy your normal way of life. You were totaly uneducated. You did not understand anything at all that was going on around you, and everything that happened that you did not understand was clasified as a miracle. Even rain was considered a miracle. Look into the history of the time, for instance, and you will discover that Jesus was not the only one in the hills performing miracles, there were a number of others performing miracles in the hills as well. The point of all this is that I agree that the Bible is inspired by God, not written by God. It is meant to be a source of general guidance written for a vastly different society. A person needs to consider this REALITY when looking towards the Bible. It should not be a book taken at face value so as it can be twisted to any individual modern agenda. It was written for the people of that era NOT OURS. Common sense should tell us that. If written in the current era od the world the wording would be drastically different. Again, thats common sense. PLEASE consider that when you look towards the Bible for guidence and consideration. Remember that Socrates once famously stated that "the unexamined life is not worth living." Examine your world from your educated modern perspective, thats why God gave use brains, and discover that blind faith can lead one on a path to a slippery slope with God.

ethicsguy said:

While I agree that having a personal relationship with the One who inspired the Bible, you must also make an effort to realize that the One also inspired the physical world. A person needs to understand the physical world as well as the Bible. You state it well when you say the Bible was inspired (not written by) God. The Bible was written in an era so foreign to ours that most modern era believers would not even recognize the society it was written to address. It was an extremely horrible time to be alive. Every day was a struggle to have enough to eat, your lifespan was 35 years so you lived with the fear of death every day. You were heavily oppressed by the government who was a foreign power attempting to destroy your normal way of life. You were totaly uneducated. You did not understand anything at all that was going on around you, and everything that happened that you did not understand was clasified as a miracle. Even rain was considered a miracle. Look into the history of the time, for instance, and you will discover that Jesus was not the only one in the hills performing miracles, there were a number of others performing miracles in the hills as well. The point of all this is that I agree that the Bible is inspired by God, not written by God. It is meant to be a source of general guidance written for a vastly different society. A person needs to consider this REALITY when looking towards the Bible. It should not be a book taken at face value so as it can be twisted to any individual modern agenda. It was written for the people of that era NOT OURS. Common sense should tell us that. If written in the current era od the world the wording would be drastically different. Again, thats common sense. PLEASE consider that when you look towards the Bible for guidence and consideration. Remember that Socrates once famously stated that "the unexamined life is not worth living." Examine your world from your educated modern perspective, thats why God gave use brains, and discover that blind faith can lead one on a path to a slippery slope with God.

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If a person uses that brain you say God gave us they can tell the difference between what was applicable to that era and what is applicable to the present day. The one unchangeable truth is that (thanks to Adam) man is born in sin and therefore condemned to eternity in hell UNLESS he chooses to accept the free gift of eternity with God provided by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

revrobor said:

If a person uses that brain you say God gave us they can tell the difference between what was applicable to that era and what is applicable to the present day. The one unchangeable truth is that (thanks to Adam) man is born in sin and therefore condemned to eternity in hell UNLESS he chooses to accept the free gift of eternity with God provided by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

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A person can accept Jesus as his savior and accept "the free gift of eternity with God" without tying it to original sin. Original sin is problamatic at best. While you have every right to accept this for yourself it is easily deniabal to anyone that original sin is the "one unchangable truth." Close to half of the world's population disagrees with this human is born evil concept. To many the human being is born good not evil (no original sin). To prove this they point to Mencius' parable [Confucianism, a way to live life, not a religion] of the boy and the well. If a human being sees a child fall in a well their initial response is to aid the child. If the human was born evil then the initial response would have be to let them drown, but this is not what happens. They accept this to be true and believe that it is, therefore, every individuals' duty to cultivate themselfs in the consistant effort to not accept immoral distractions and to live the best moral life possible. Ok, so what than does this mean then to Christians? Why alter our beliefs? It means our accepted Christian, human born evil, system does not work very well most of the time. Socialogically speaking the U.S. (overwhelming Christian in origin) offers by far the highest per capita rate in murder, rape and robbery. In contrast these rates are far less per capita in the Confucian background centered East. Suing one another is almost unheard of in the East. I ask anyone then to tell me which basic approach to the basis of evil/good in the human kind is promoting a more successful moral and ethical outcome for their individual society? Perhaps it is time to update Christian beliefs. I don't ask anyone to throw away their Christian religion, I just ask them to think about which tenets make sense in the modern era. To sum up, again, an individual needs to exercise their thought processes to root out what is common sense and follow Christianity in an enlightened sense. The truth is out there, simply look for it. However, if this archaic belief system still works for you, then that is probably what you should continue to believe, but you most likely should not press it onto believers who do not know that there other ways to understand, and believe in, Christianity. Christians often deserve more than they get from their advisers.

I really don't care what other men may think. That does not make it truth. The only truth is God. And I don't care whether I was or was not born into sin. What God has to offer is more than anything man could offer me. And I'm not part of the Christian religion. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Tomorrow I'll be starting a new, first-century type fellowship for those what have no church or who are dissatisfied with the one they attend now. This was not my idea but God's who has allowed me to hear from Him in words for nearly three decades now. No, that doesn't make me any better than anyone else it just eliminates confusion and wait-time.

revrobor said:

... The one unchangeable truth is that (thanks to Adam) man is born in sin and therefore condemned to eternity in hell...

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In my opinion, that is a sick and depraved doctrine. Infinitely worse than anything any human has ever done.

revrobor said:

...
UNLESS he chooses to accept the free gift of eternity with God provided by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

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It isn't a "free gift."

It requires us to worship an entity who condones torture, genocide, infanticide, misogyny, and slavery.

I'm sorry, but my morals prevent me from worshiping such an entity. And I'm not going to sell out my morals for the reward of heaven.

ThinkForYourself said:

In my opinion, that is a sick and depraved doctrine. Infinitely worse than anything any human has ever done.



It isn't a "free gift."

It requires us to worship an entity who condones torture, genocide, infanticide, misogyny, and slavery.

I'm sorry, but my morals prevent me from worshiping such an entity. And I'm not going to sell out my morals for the reward of heaven.

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It's your loss friend. And there's not as much time left as you may think. But the choices is yours. Where do you wan to spend eternity?

revrobor said:

It's your loss friend. And there's not as much time left as you may think. But the choices is yours. Where do you wan to spend eternity?

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Let me ask you: would you be willing to trade places with others so that they can live in "heaven" or whatever you view to be the good reward and result, and you/yourself accept the bad one or other option (hell) ? Would you trade places with them "eternally" ?

revrobor said:

It's your loss friend. And there's not as much time left as you may think.

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You mean the end times are coming again. If I had a nickel for every time that prediction's been made, I could at least fly to Hawaii.

revrobor said:

But the choices is yours. Where do you wan to spend eternity?

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In the ground, obliviously dead. If people could comprehend how long Eternity is, they wouldn't want it either, but our brains aren't set up to understand big numbers.

Here is an analogy to give you some idea:

Image a solid ball of bronze as big as the sun. Once a year, a fly comes by and brushes against that ball of bronze.

When that ball has been worn to the size of a marble, you have made it through the first day of eternity.

Sometimes I think it is church language that throws people off.. Another way of putting it, is God Himself is life.. the life force, and spark of.. "In the beginning, God.." What else could be? He's also perfection (surely? or He too would fade).

Consider this - that there be rational creatures is a real Pandora's box! Why? you say? Because, sooner or later, rationality includes being able to make choices. And as soon as one chooses anything in thought, word or deed which differs from what He chooses, they become imperfect, the opposite of life.

Why do you suppose He waited so (veRy) long, after creating the spirit beings (angels/messengers) only creating the universe and man and woman, not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred, but after that thought had ripened into outright sedition and trickery?

I would imagine, so all ("in heaven and earth") would take this unavoidable journey (and lesson) together all at once. Otherwise, one would wander away now, another later, another still later, and so on, virtually taking 'forever'.

What was the other option? No rational creatures ever? Robots? Stick with animals, plants and birds..?

Being Perfect, the 'end' result of all this (human history, yikes, and life as we presently know it) can only be what?

It doesn't take a whole lot of thinking or investigation, to see how full of holes man's current theory of origins is.. It's hardly even worth mentioning, it's so outdated, according to its own (supposed) field, science. [So many assume the theory had been verified and somehow proven when that is totally not the case, it's simply just another faith! The first two laws of science their self refute it! Darwin's own words of why it should/would be rejected, has been borne out time and time again..

The first offspring of the first couple - adam and eve, could marry one another, the genetic code was wide open.. only after years of natural selection did the code get narrowed so it became dangerous.

All lands have - 1- the first and original belief in a 'mother' goddess.. Surely faint memories of Eve, whom Adam called "the mother of all". All lands have a catastrophic flood legend (account, usually very well embellished, handed down). And its sediment layers is where the fossils are found.. Lacking the gazillion transitional life forms.. I could go on and on. Bacteria does not evolve antibiotic immunity. the non immune is killed off and the immune multiply. This is a separation/selection of traits, not evolving new traits or evolving into another kind. Lots of dog breeds, but no dogcats. The one thing the evolutionists have is time. But! Carbon dating is not accurate after a few thousand years. And there are many other ways of dating which suggest a much younger earth.

They now know the universe/matter is not eternal, but is winding down, falling apart. (Second law of science.) And it is impossible for nothing to explode and become everything.. phew.. talk about an immaculate conception!! (First law of science.)

One timothy four ten says he is the savior of all, psalm twenty two, verse twenty seven says all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and every family rejoice. The rescue (from death and its cause, imperfection) was built into it all from the beginning ("foundation"). "Every knee shall bow".. "Eye has not seen, ear heard, nor the heart imagined all that he has prepared.."

Yes, the world is imperfect.. living child sacrifice via fire in old testament days really ticked God off.. Because God is life, He lives through, suffers and experiences all suffering which ever occur.. But He's letting things (men and angels choices) run their course anyway.. What infinite patience for what he is creating.. (An un-breakable paradise for all, for all will fully know good from evil, which is also life from nonlife. Simple really. It's "man who makes things complicated. Which reminds me, God's word is perfect, except for basically two word mistranslations from the original languages spoken.) "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus", colossians 1:20, ephesians 1:10. "If I be lifted up from the earth" Jesus said "I will draw all to me" .."He who has the Son has life, whoever has not the Son, has not life"..
Peace! God bless! or - take care! whichever you prefer

ThinkForYourself said:

In my opinion, that is a sick and depraved doctrine. Infinitely worse than anything any human has ever done.



It isn't a "free gift."

It requires us to worship an entity who condones torture, genocide, infanticide, misogyny, and slavery.

I'm sorry, but my morals prevent me from worshiping such an entity. And I'm not going to sell out my morals for the reward of heaven.

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..Obviously you have not read the Bible, the only genocide of God was of people who had gotten so bad they sacrificed live babes in fire, while beating drums to drown out their screams.. Israel did not genocide them which caused lots of problems.

And the flood, "every thought of every person was continuously evil" - letting such go would have destroyed humanity looong ago..

By torture, do you mean 'hell'? It's an ancient pagan belief, rulers used to control the ppl.. and a mistranslation, which should read simply "the grave".

The curse, in the garden, of woman being subject to man.. results (not a hard conclusion for us to come to if one thinks about imperfection and one sex being stronger than the other).. even "fiery judgment" (when men's empires fall) ..also results.. Things are simply being let to run their course. Look at human history, if you think God should keep his peace..

"Slavery" was a loan/debt system which Jesus/Christianity began the dissolution of.. and Jesus and the New Testament treated women very well..

..and, they don't have the fossils.. anybody looking into the history of every so called missing link, can find that out right quick

- Blind Faith was a great band in the hippie era, but blind faith itself is not so great when found within religion.
- "The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
- An example: "Do unto others as you would them do unto you". Confucius [500 years before Jesus]
- Use your minds to explore your world. Comparitive religion reading may let you appreciate Christianity even more and from a greater more fulfilling depth. I recommend [for starters] Huston Smith's "The Worlds Religions" a wonderful unbiased look into the workings and thoughts of the world's major religions [Christianity is covered as well]. I give this book as presents to friends quite often.

glendaMarie said:

..Obviously you have not read the Bible, the only genocide of God was of people who had gotten so bad they sacrificed live babes in fire, while beating drums to drown out their screams.. Israel did not genocide them which caused lots of problems.

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First, I have read the entire bible. In all good conscience I couldn't remain a Christian after I read what God and Jesus had done. Have you? You seem unaware of a lot of the stuff in it. For instance, all the genocide:

How about when God kills all the firstborn of Egypt?

Or Exodus 32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Numbers 21:3
And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.

Or read Joshua 10:10-39. Joshua, with God's help and/or approval wipes out the Gibeonites, the people of Makkedah, the Libnahites, the people of Lachish, the Eglonites, the Hebronites, and the Debirites.

There are lots more too, but I think you can see that God and Israelites did indeed commit genocide.

glendaMarie said:

By torture, do you mean 'hell'? It's an ancient pagan belief, rulers used to control the ppl.. and a mistranslation, which should read simply "the grave".

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Mark 9:43
Jesus taught, "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire." Those who die apart from Christ can expect this description of judgment given by Jesus that includes unending fire.

glendaMarie said:

"Slavery" was a loan/debt system which Jesus/Christianity began the dissolution of.. and Jesus and the New Testament treated women very well..

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Please read your bible again, the loan/debt system was strictly for the Jews.

God condoned the full blown slavery of non-Jews., where you owned another human being, and could pass them on to your children. God also condoned beating these slaves to death, so long as they didn't die in the first day or two.

And Jesus also condoned slavery. He told slaves to obey their masters, especially the cruel ones.

It's all there in your bible. If you really want to know what the bible says, google bible slavery, and you will learn a lot more. Also try googling bible infanticide or bible genocide. All the stuff your pastor never told you about.

"How about when God kills all the firstborn of Egypt?" Why is that wrong from your secular moral point of view? Is it wrong because of your petty preferences?

"Or read Joshua 10:10-39. Joshua, with God's help and/or approval wipes out the Gibeonites, the people of Makkedah, the Libnahites, the people of Lachish, the Eglonites, the Hebronites, and the Debirites." There was probably some assimilation and there was probably a low amount members of the tribes present after the wars and they fled but I ask again why this is wrong? "

Mark 9:43
Jesus taught, "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire." Those who die apart from Christ can expect this description of judgment given by Jesus that includes unending fire."

Nothing to see here unending fire is hell I'm glad you understand that. It's not necessarily fire but it is unending.

Slavery existed often after a war the women and the children of the defeated nation/tribe would have no where to go but be integrated into Israelite society they were taken as slaves and were fed for their work. It was possible to come out of slavery as well. Slavery was a mechanism that existed in the ancient world and God provided a system where the conditions were of better condition than other slave owning nation (probably EVERY Nation in that area at that time owned slaves). Also another question for you, why is slavery even wrong from your humble secular point of view?

Cheers.

BucksWordBearer said:

"How about when God kills all the firstborn of Egypt?" Why is that wrong from your secular moral point of view? Is it wrong because of your petty preferences?

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Nope. It's wrong because genocide is wrong. Just like the holocaust was wrong. That's what makes Secular Morality superior. I can recognize that genocide is wrong.

Just in case I'm misreading what you are saying, do you think the holocaust was a moral, neutral, or immoral act?

BucksWordBearer said:

"Or read Joshua 10:10-39. Joshua, with God's help and/or approval wipes out the Gibeonites, the people of Makkedah, the Libnahites, the people of Lachish, the Eglonites, the Hebronites, and the Debirites." There was probably some assimilation and there was probably a low amount members of the tribes present after the wars and they fled but I ask again why this is wrong? "

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As before.

Do you think the holocaust was wrong?

BucksWordBearer said:

Nothing to see here unending fire is hell I'm glad you understand that. It's not necessarily fire but it is unending.

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Do you think torture is moral?

BucksWordBearer said:

Slavery existed often after a war the women and the children of the defeated nation/tribe would have no where to go but be integrated into Israelite society they were taken as slaves and were fed for their work. It was possible to come out of slavery as well. Slavery was a mechanism that existed in the ancient world and God provided a system where the conditions were of better condition than other slave owning nation (probably EVERY Nation in that area at that time owned slaves). Also another question for you, why is slavery even wrong from your humble secular point of view?
Cheers.

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Because it is wrong to own another human being.

God didn't make conditions better for slaves. The bible condones beating slaves to death with a rod.

Do you think slavery is wrong? Do you think it's wrong to beat a slave to death?

"Nope. It's wrong because genocide is wrong. Just like the holocaust was wrong. That's what makes Secular Morality superior. I can recognize that genocide is wrong.

Just in case I'm misreading what you are saying, do you think the holocaust was a moral, neutral, or immoral act?"

'Genocide is wrong because genocide is wrong' is basically what I just read. I'm glad you can justify genocide being wrong through circular reasoning. I think the holocaust was an immoral act since it goes against the NT. The methods used and the people involved are what made it especially immoral. I believe you're going to come out and say because the Israelites were permitted to declare war and participate in war the AXIS should of also been justified in their own war but this does not include the holocaust itself AND the Israelites were granted special circumstantial permission for the land they conquered from The creator so of course they were justified while the AXIS were not. It's also important to note many of the actions of the Allies could of been seen as immoral.

I believe torture is immoral if done by humans since it is not permitted by God but the creator torturing his own creation for them not accepted his will is totally unacceptable and now you're totally mind blown by that but you have to be elect to understand.

Why is it wrong to own another human being in your humble secular point of view again?

"God didn't make conditions better for slaves. The bible condones beating slaves to death with a rod." Wrong the verse you're talking about isn't a moral judgement God is passing on slaves but a legalistic outcome.

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money"

Notice the use of the word 'when'. God isn't saying, "You're allowed to beat your slave as long as you make sure he lives for two or three days" his saying if this is to happen your fate shall be decided if the slave was able to live 2 or 3 days before dying or not. If the slave didn't die straight away this was a sign that is just arose out of an argument from the master and the slave and that the master did not have any intent to kill the slave.

Other verses that make your interpretation of this verse flawed Colossians 4:1 and Ephesians 6:9.

ethicsguy said:

- Blind Faith was a great band in the hippie era, but blind faith itself is not so great when found within religion.
- "The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
- An example: "Do unto others as you would them do unto you". Confucius [500 years before Jesus]
- Use your minds to explore your world. Comparitive religion reading may let you appreciate Christianity even more and from a greater more fulfilling depth. I recommend [for starters] Huston Smith's "The Worlds Religions" a wonderful unbiased look into the workings and thoughts of the world's major religions [Christianity is covered as well]. I give this book as presents to friends quite often.

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...actually, I've studied world religions.. found God in the mountains (in 1979) when i was studying meditation and the mechanics of the universe.. I have continued to study science and history over the years and of course the bible..

Seventeen years ago, my son, age 16 at the time asked me two questions, "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?" I answered him but wasn't happy w/ my answers so prayed once aga in earnestly for truth and knowing and the answers I got back knocked my socks off.. and they are still knocked off. And I was a good soled happy christian before then!

Many assume others faith and beliefs are `blind faith`, this is a screen preventing true dialogue, imo anyway. Quite ironic to any of us who have looked into man's popular theory of origins.

What so many don't recognize, is it is hard to convince someone of the non existence of someone they know. And have had experiences with. So even Christians who haven't had the leisure to research the so easy answers to the refutations to the Bible, nor the laws of science and nature.. Are still not merely motivated by `blind faith`.

And I do agree there are nuggets of wisdom in the indigenous faiths.. Most of them seek the light, and seek harmony..

glendaMarie said:

...actually, I've studied world religions.. found God in the mountains (in 1979) when i was studying meditation and the mechanics of the universe.. I have continued to study science and history over the years and of course the bible..

Seventeen years ago, my son, age 16 at the time asked me two questions, "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?" I answered him but wasn't happy w/ my answers so prayed once aga in earnestly for truth and knowing and the answers I got back knocked my socks off.. and they are still knocked off. And I was a good soled happy christian before then!

Many assume others faith and beliefs are `blind faith`, this is a screen preventing true dialogue, imo anyway. Quite ironic to any of us who have looked into man's popular theory of origins.

What so many don't recognize, is it is hard to convince someone of the non existence of someone they know. And have had experiences with. So even Christians who haven't had the leisure to research the so easy answers to the refutations to the Bible, nor the laws of science and nature.. Are still not merely motivated by `blind faith`.

And I do agree there are nuggets of wisdom in the indigenous faiths.. Most of them seek the light, and seek harmony..

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So what were the answers that knocked your socks off ?

BucksWordBearer said:

Genocide is wrong because genocide is wrong' is basically what I just read. I'm glad you can justify genocide being wrong through circular reasoning.

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Sorry, forgot some people don't realize genocide is bad. Amongst my friends, it's a given.

Genocide is wrong because murder is wrong. Murder is wrong because you are taking another person's life.

BucksWordBearer said:

I think the holocaust was an immoral act since it goes against the NT.

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So then God, when ordering and helping with the holocausts in the bible, must have been acting immorally.

BucksWordBearer said:

The methods used and the people involved are what made it especially immoral.

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It is racist to say that it was the people involved that make the holocaust more immoral.

Are you saying God is a racist?

BucksWordBearer said:

I believe you're going to come out and say because the Israelites were permitted to declare war and participate in war the AXIS should of also been justified in their own war but this does not include the holocaust itself AND the Israelites were granted special circumstantial permission for the land they conquered from The creator so of course they were justified while the AXIS were not.

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Nope, wasn't going to say any of that.

Although stealing is immoral, God even said it was a sin in the ten commandments. But then he orders the Israelites to steal land. So God is acting immorally, yet again.

BucksWordBearer said:

I believe torture is immoral if done by humans since it is not permitted by God but the creator torturing his own creation for them not accepted his will is totally unacceptable and now you're totally mind blown by that but you have to be elect to understand.

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Why would I be mind blown by that? Believe me, you aren't the first Christian who has put forth contorted reasoning to try and justify God's immoral behaviour. It's actually pretty common on this form.

Next year cloning becomes possible. I clone a cat, and am it's creator. According to your logic, as the creator it is moral to burn my cat so badly that is barely alive, and keep it this way, burning it whenever I get the chance, for the next 10 years. Is this correct?

And seeing as you believe slavery is moral, I manage to clone a child slave, I am it's creator and owner. According to your logic, it is moral to torture that slave, in the most horrific fashion possible, far far worse than any holocaust victim suffered, while still keeping her alive for 30 years of torture. Is this correct?

Anyways, earlier you said that part of the reason the holocaust was immoral was the method used. Burning people forever is infinitely worse than anything Hitler did. So again, by your own statements, God is acting immorally.

BucksWordBearer said:

Why is it wrong to own another human being in your humble secular point of view again?

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Because it is bad for the person being enslaved.

If there is nothing wrong with slavery, why don't you come up to my place and you can be my slave for the rest of my life, and I'll will you to my kids if you live that long? I'll be a generous master and put a mat down in the garage for you to sleep on. Or you can send your kids, I'll get longer use out of them.

But you wouldn't because you know that would be bad for you or your kids.

BucksWordBearer said:

"God didn't make conditions better for slaves.
The bible condones beating slaves to death with a rod." Wrong the verse you're talking about isn't a moral judgement God is passing on slaves but a legalistic outcome.
"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money"

Notice the use of the word 'when'. God isn't saying, "You're allowed to beat your slave as long as you make sure he lives for two or three days" his saying if this is to happen your fate shall be decided if the slave was able to live 2 or 3 days before dying or not. If the slave didn't die straight away this was a sign that is just arose out of an argument from the master and the slave and that the master did not have any intent to kill the slave.

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LOL, well that's a nice interpretation: Master was just having a minor disagreement with his slave, and oopsy, he beat the slave to death. God is clear, if the slave lives a day or two, there is no punishment.

Sorry, but that is a silly interpretation you created so that you can justify God's immoral behaviour.

ThinkForYourself said:

First, I have read the entire bible. In all good conscience I couldn't remain a Christian after I read what God and Jesus had done. Have you? You seem unaware of a lot of the stuff in it. For instance, all the genocide:

How about when God kills all the firstborn of Egypt?

Or Exodus 32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Numbers 21:3
And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.

Or read Joshua 10:10-39. Joshua, with God's help and/or approval wipes out the Gibeonites, the people of Makkedah, the Libnahites, the people of Lachish, the Eglonites, the Hebronites, and the Debirites.

There are lots more too, but I think you can see that God and Israelites did indeed commit genocide.

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..those nations were sacrificing live babes in fire.. remember?

Besides, God made all, He can do whatever He wants.. It's his garden, he knows what he's after and has pruned lest we all be descended from Canannites or Gebusites, etc, the tribes which became quite bestial.

ThinkForYourself said:

Mark 9:43
Jesus taught, "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire." Those who die apart from Christ can expect this description of judgment given by Jesus that includes unending fire.

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Gehenna is what he said.. it was the city dump where even the bodies of criminals were burned, thus it was kept perpetually burning.. Jesus said, it would be better to throw your hand or eye there than you would offend on of the little ones.. judgment is upon earth and is man's own consequences.

ThinkForYourself said:

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That is no mistranslation. I am perfectly aware of what "unending fire" is, I don't need someone else to explain it to me.
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..you know Hebrew and Greek? You've studied all the verses about Sheol? (Before they were translated into `hell`?

ThinkForYourself said:

Please read your bible again, the loan/debt system was strictly for the Jews.

God condoned the full blown slavery of non-Jews., where you owned another human being, and could pass them on to your children. God also condoned beating these slaves to death, so long as they didn't die in the first day or two.

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I've read the Old Testament a time or two and I don't remember reading that.. all crimes in tiny Israel were strictly dealt with, a place a little prepared for Messiah..

ThinkForYourself said:

And Jesus also condoned slavery. He told slaves to obey their masters, especially the cruel ones.

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Now that, is in no way true.. and this wAs the loan, debt indentured service, which could last at most seven years and was an institution of man, and Jesus did not come the first time to overturn men's institutions.

ThinkForYourself said:

It's all there in your bible. If you really want to know what the bible says, google bible slavery, and you will learn a lot more. Also try googling bible infanticide or bible genocide. All the stuff your pastor never told you about.

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I've been reading my bible through for years, dear.. And you know what, when Jesus returns, he returns "in fire taking vengeance.." - but, allegory for man's so wise splitting of the atom.. (which we are in a pause of, rev 7:1) ..And what about the flood.. a whole world gone.. It wasn't small.

I believe all people will be reconciled to God. I do not believe one will be lost. If he fought wars with men.. He had his reasons and he owns all. As a matter of fact, w/o his rescue/reconciliation each one of us would go down in a blazing, well, fizzle of self destruction.. and annihilation.. You put the bible down (at the first layer) because you have not been called by him..
..blessings..