Dostoevsky

[Giantsbran1227]

I picked up some of Fyodor's books today, after succumbing to the hype they have created over the last century. When purchasing them, I was under the impression that "The Brothers Karamazov" and his other books all had both dominant and underlying Christian themes to them. After doing some internet searches, I have come to find out that many claim his books as being anti-christian. Do any of you guys know any thing about him? Would you recommend his books?

Under no circumstances do I believe everything I read should have the "Christian" stamp on it, but in this instance, I purchased the books for that particular reason. Hence the reason for this thread.

Forever Broken.

 

[Antony in Tx]

I picked up some of Fyodor's books today, after succumbing to the hype they have created over the last century. When purchasing them, I was under the impression that "The Brothers Karamazov" and his other books all had both dominant and underlying Christian themes to them. After doing some internet searches, I have come to find out that many claim his books as being anti-christian. Do any of you guys know any thing about him? Would you recommend his books?

Under no circumstances do I believe everything I read should have the "Christian" stamp on it, but in this instance, I purchased the books for that particular reason. Hence the reason for this thread.

Forever Broken.

Let me start by saying that the following are my opinions only. I think the claims of Dostoyevsky being "anti-christian" are probably made by people who are of a very Western, very all or none, very black and white view of Chrisitanity and what a "Christian book" would be like. His novels have some very complex, very dark and brooding themes in them. The characters are often very flawed people who are stuggling to get by and often fall short of doing well in life. That said, there is a strong undercurrent of striving and desire in these stories that is not at all un-Christian, and actually may in some ways reflect the cultural sensibility of an Eastern Christian mindset much more than that of say a Western Pentocostal. I think that a well grounded person who reads Dostoyevky with an eye toward understanding the condition of mankind better can take away some great lessons. If you are looking for light reading, go elsewhere.

 

[ProtectionofMotherofGod]

Literary Idiot’s (mine) interpretation of Dostoyevsky-

Dostoyevsky could never admit that God truly existed or that Jesus was God. He came to his own personal conclusion that following the teachings of Jesus and the Orthodox Church were good ideas for society. He believed more in a law of love than in God. He chose to believe in some form of a God because religion brought order and stability to the lives of people. He was a man that relied on his intellect. Because the concept of God is too immense to encompase, Dostoevsky never truly believed. (Dostoevsky had an abusive father. Individuals with abusive parents seem to have a difficult time believing that there is an ever-loving Father protecting His flock.) His novels promote many Orthodox teachings such as the belief that personal suffering is the path to “finding self understanding” or Salvation. They profess that without God man is nothing, but Dostoevsky only believed in the principles of Christian living and never accepted Jesus as the true God.

In the preface of one of his books he rants about his inability to believe in a god. Because I read this decades ago, I can’t remember the title of this exact book. I will try to remember tonight. It was my impression that Dostoyevsky "almost made the boat" (understood the teachings of the Holy Fathers and Scriptures but he had to rationalize everything. God can't be "grasped" with our pitiful human intellect and therefore, Dostoyevsky never believed in God or accepted that Jesus was God.)

Although dark, you will gain insight into Eastern Orthodox thoughts and abnormal psychology by reading his novels.

 

[beardedone]

I thoroughly enjoy Dostoyevsky's work. I do not think that he makes any anti-Christian arguments in any of the works I have read. While he may not have been a devout Christian himself, he seems to want to be, through his work. However, if you do not like monologues and lengthy dialogue, I would not recommend Dostoyevsky.

 

[ProtectionofMotherofGod]

This is a more eloquent discription about Dostoyevsky and the existance of God:
Dostoyevsky and the Problem of God

 

[laconicstudent]

I read The Brothers Karamazov in AP English. It was bizarre. My general impression is that the main character (forget his name) never really recovered from his fever. The whole book just seemed..... surreal. It was hard to read.

If you need a good book try Amazon.com: The Golden Age (The Golden Age, Book 1) (9780812579840): John C. Wright: Books

Laconicstudent(Will someday learn how to link cover images as hyperlinks to Amazon product pages)

 

[ThePilgrim]

Literary Idiot’s (mine) interpretation of Dostoyevsky-

Dostoyevsky could never admit that God truly existed or that Jesus was God. He came to his own personal conclusion that following the teachings of Jesus and the Orthodox Church were good ideas for society. He believed more in a law of love than in God. He chose to believe in some form of a God because religion brought order and stability to the lives of people. He was a man that relied on his intellect. Because the concept of God is too immense to encompase, Dostoevsky never truly believed. (Dostoevsky had an abusive father. Individuals with abusive parents seem to have a difficult time believing that there is an ever-loving Father protecting His flock.) His novels promote many Orthodox teachings such as the belief that personal suffering is the path to “finding self understanding” or Salvation. They profess that without God man is nothing, but Dostoevsky only believed in the principles of Christian living and never accepted Jesus as the true God.

In the preface of one of his books he rants about his inability to believe in a god. Because I read this decades ago, I can’t remember the title of this exact book. I will try to remember tonight. It was my impression that Dostoyevsky "almost made the boat" (understood the teachings of the Holy Fathers and Scriptures but he had to rationalize everything. God can't be "grasped" with our pitiful human intellect and therefore, Dostoyevsky never believed in God or accepted that Jesus was God.)

Although dark, you will gain insight into Eastern Orthodox thoughts and abnormal psychology by reading his novels.

I think you may be confusing Dostoevsky with someone else. I am aware of no book of his in which he claims that he is unable to believe in God.

Dostoevsky was a deeply religious man who struggled with numerous personal problems (such as gambling) but most certainly did believe in God. He was also an avid reader of many of the Church Fathers, including ones that were his own near contemporaries, such as St. Seraphim of Sarov.

Orthodoxy pervades his books, as does optimism and a deep appreciation for beauty, although his optimism is not the sort of optimism that exists in ignorance, through ignoring what is wrong with the world, but an optimism that looks the worst the world has to offer in the face, and yet is able to find beauty.

Definitely read Dostoevsky. In the Brother's Karamazov, the section with the words of Elder Zosima is especially poignant.

Grace and peace,
John

 

[gzt]

Read Dostoevsky. I like Pevear and Volokhonsky's translations (St Vlad's grad, by the way), and especially like the introductions they have in their editions.

Now here's the important part: don't get bent out of shape by crap you read on the Internet. Don't develop a case of religious OCD.

 

[ThePilgrim]

Dostoevsky has helped to bring many people to faith in Christ, and many to the Orthodox Church in particular.

A very good read.

 

[RobNJ]

Now here's the important part: don't get bent out of shape by crap you read on the Internet. Don't develop a case of religious OCD.

QFT!!!!!

 

[Macarius]

I second Pilgrim. Zosima rocks. If Brothers Karamazov gets a bad rep from anywhere it is the fact that the character of Ivan is SO believably existentialist / modernist in his perspective and Ivan lays out, very effectively, the problem of evil. Those who are persuaded by that problem find Ivan so convincing that they are convinced that Dostoevsky was persuaded by him and that Zosima's replies are just to "stave off the censorship" - that may be, but it could also be in reverse. He could have crafted Ivan to avoid an overly simplistic or unliterary character, and Zosima could reflect his authentic reply. It could be none of the above (and these could just be two authentically Russian characters).

Regardless, a good read.

Tolstoy struggled with any idea of God - I don't think Dostoevsky did. I'm not sure about Chekov, but I find deep ascetic themes in The Three Sisters (even if they are presented in a roundabout way).

 

[ProtectionofMotherofGod]

I found the book I was referring to in post #3. The Gospel in Dostoyevsky provides excerpts from the writings of Dostoyevsky. I was incorrect in stating that it had a intro or foreword by Dostoyevski. This book does share an analysis of Dostoyevsky's characters and his personal attempt to believe in God rather than just believing in the teachings of God. Yes, Dostoyevsky lived as an Orthodox Christian and included Orthodox beliefs in his writings, but many questioned whether Dostoyevski actually believed in the existence of God because some of his characters questioned believing in God.

 

[ProtectionofMotherofGod]

^This may be where such thought originated.
In contemplating the creation of the novel The Idiot, Dostoyevsky wrote in a letter to A.N. Maikov that he hoped to focus the work around a question "with which I have been tormented, consciously or unconsciously all my life--that is, the existence of God."

Although all of Dostoyevsky's heroes struggle with God, they all ultimately accept His existence. (Hopefully, so did Dostoyevsky.)

 

[ThePilgrim]

^This may be where such thought originated.
In contemplating the creation of the novel The Idiot, Dostoyevsky wrote in a letter to A.N. Maikov that he hoped to focus the work around a question "with which I have been tormented, consciously or unconsciously all my life--that is, the existence of God."

Although all of Dostoyevsky's heroes struggle with God, they all ultimately accept His existence. (Hopefully, so did Dostoyevsky.)

If you read the rest of the article that you posted, however, it gives a very different perspective than what you said in your first post on here, ie when you said that Dostoevsky never really believed in God and saw religion as merely being a useful delusion.

If you read the article, it speaks of Dostoevsky's real views on things, and puts that quote from the letter in a much broader context.

Dostoevsky definitely believed in God and was himself a very faithful man.

 

[ProtectionofMotherofGod]

Please don't shoot the me. I am only the messenger, Pilgram. Dostoyevsky wrote the letter stating he had been consciously or unconsciously tormented by whether there was a God all of his life. Even though I am not a literary scholar and I finished grad school probably before you were born, I can still vaguely remember this same discussion from my college years. Dostoyevsky placed this thought in many people's minds. This was probably why someone suggested to the OP that Dostoyevsky's novels/short stories were "questionable".

 

[ThePilgrim]

I'm not shooting the messenger. I'm simply disagreeing strongly with something that you said.

"Shooting the messenger" would imply that what you said is an unpleasant truth to which I'm reacting angrily by taking it out on you.

On the contrary, I have nothing against you. Your portrayal of Dostoevsky, though, is simply inaccurate.

In your first post, you said of Dostoevsky that he "could never admit that God truly existed or that Jesus was God."

That isn't true, and your own article shows that. You then went on to claim that Dostoevsky *never* believed and merely promoted religion for utilitarian reasons. None of that is true, either.

It was just an honest mistake... I think you just remembered incorrectly.

Dostoevsky, however, was Orthodox to the core.

If you want to talk credentials, I have a degree in Russian language and literature, have read Dostoevsky in both English and the original Russian, and took courses specifically on Dostoevsky.

All I'm saying is, although it was an honest mistake, please don't continue to bear false witness against a brother.

Grace and peace,
John

 

[ProtectionofMotherofGod]

That is unfair and quite judgmental to state that I am bearing false witness.

Dostoyevsky himself stated that he had been tormented consciously or unconsciously all of his life by the existence of God. His own words imply that he was internally debating the existence of God consciously or unconsciously all of his life.

“If it came to a to a showdown between rejecting Christ and the truth, I would side with Christ over against the truth!” is another expression chosen by Dostoyevsky that has caused others to wonder if he believed in the existence of God. Here is another example from Dostoyevsky: “The more proof I have against it, the more I thirsted for it, the more it tortures me.”

The OP asked about why Dostoyevsky's books may appear to some as questionable; Dostoyevsky's own statements are the answer to that question.

 

[beardedone]

PMG, I think it is a stretch to say that because Dostoyevsky struggled with doubts that his works are questionable. Most everyone struggles with belief--Dostoyevsky is no exception. Yes, you can see his struggle in his works, but in the end, I think he always makes it clear that he chooses the Christian claims to truth as opposed to choosing the secular claims to truth. One of the reasons he can come across as anti-Christian is because he was brilliant at character development. He portrayed the secular philosophies so well in his character development that it can appear he was siding with it--however, at the end of every book Christian truth wins out. So to say that his work is questionable based on his struggles with faith are somewhat unfair...

 

[ProtectionofMotherofGod]

^Sorry, beadedone, but I didn't write the OP. I also didn't state that Dostoyevsky's stories are anti-Christian. Notice that I stated, "His novels promote many Orthodox teachings such as the belief that personal suffering is the path to finding Salvation." I have never seen his writings as anti-Christian, but I have worried that Dostoevsky never came to a final conclusion that God truly exists.

Millions are aware of Dostoyevsky’s uncertainty in the existence of God his entire life (his exact words) and this clearly influenced what some literary critics have said about his stories for decades. William Hamilton believed Dostoevsky was a forerunner of “Death of God” theology. Malcolm Jones linked Dostoyevsky to “post-atheism” in contemporary Russia. Jones also stated that Dostoyevsky exemplified “minimal religion”. Henry Miller believed Dostoyevsky’s stories were written to stimulate a social revolution rather than a religious revolution.

Please stop shooting the messenger.

 

[Scottish Knight]

I loved his "crime and punishment". What I liked about his writing is that he doesn't portray a simplified world and that all problems dissappear when one is converted. As such I find his books better than a lot of christian fiction today.