Don't you resent it when divorced are called 'singles'?

[Warrior Poet]

Maybe if you looked at ALL the scriptures in each of the gospels pertaining to this one teaching session of Christ.

It would be perhaps like solving simultaneous equations!

Read the bit in Matthew about the 'eunuchs' for the sake of Jesus Christ. In light of the preceding passages those 'eunuchs for the sake of Jesus Christ' would include divorced who decide to not marry again.

Ironic that you choose that name yet seems you practice and preach something so different. Even more ironic that in a previous thread you refer to yourself as single, and use the term "us" ans "we". You even post in the singles forum yet you resent that divorcees should have intimate interactions with never been married.

So you asked enslow to look at all the gosspels pretaining to this one talk and i even went further and called a few people for other references. So here is what it plays out as.

Each gospel has a writting style unique to the others and the people it was meant to appeal to. Mark was the "movie maker" of the 4. He wrote of all the great works and made, on purpose, for them to sound harsh, get straight to the point and make your jaw drop. Which he did very well. Now the scrpture in Mark that you seem to think cannot be riviled is a firm stance on divorce and those who remarry. His explanation to them after being questioned about such a strict view is given in that book of Matthew as said by enslow. Why exactly you take Marks passage literaly and not Matthews is beyond me and I am sure it you have your own reasons. During the time of the talk there were two major preiest teaching one tuaght that divorce was permitted by something as small as "buring your dinner" another permitted it only under ufaithfulness .....according to Jesus and recoreded by Matthew you know were he sided.

And the 'eunuchs' that you speak of, Jesuse said those that can accpet shall, those who MAKE THE CHOICE (there is always a choice) after divroce to do so have that option, those who want to remarry again have that option. Jesus never wished divorce, but understood it would and will happen even to his "people". The grace you say you are not denying you are. Jesus himself gave those who stayed faithful who were walked out on, an "out" a "loophole" so to speak from his own mouth he did so. Yet you deny it. So as we squirm and hide from Jesus' own words, you do to.

Do you want to me to be the kettle or the pot?

Warrior Poet

 

[ukok]

Ironic that you choose that name yet seems you practice and preach something so different.

WP, i was thinking EXACTLY the same thing earlier today, but i just couldn't be bothered to post again in this thread.

 

[Donny_B]

I was reading the Roman Catholic position on this (I am Presbyterian), and the supporting scriptures:

Divorce & Remarriage - Is divorce and remarriage permitted in Christianity? No, Jesus Christ and St. Paul both forbade a divorced person to get remarried while their spouse was still alive (Matthew 5:32; 19:9; Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18; Romans 7:2-3; 1 Corinthians 7:10-11, 39).

http://www.catholic-defense.com/quick&easy.htm

Here is the Westminster 1646 (Protestant) position, with supporting scriptures footnoted, which allows for divorce and remarriage for the innocent party in the case of adultery or desertion of a non-believing spouse "as if the offending party were dead". It also says that because of the corruption of man, additional arguments might be considered for divorce (just as it was for Moses, who for the hardness of men's hearts allowed for divorce.)

From the Westminster Confession of Faith, 1646
Chapter XXIV Of Marriage and Divorce

V. Adultery or fornication committed after a contract, being detected before marriage, gives just occasion to the innocent party to dissolve that contract.[11] In the case of adultery after marriage, it is lawful for the innocent party to sue out a divorce and, after the divorce,[12] to marry another, as if the offending party were dead.[13]

VI. Although the corruption of man be such as is apt to study arguments unduly to put asunder those whom God has joined together in marriage: yet, nothing but adultery, or such wilful desertion as can no way be remedied by the Church, or civil magistrate, is cause sufficient of dissolving the bond of marriage:[14] wherein, a public and orderly course of proceeding is to be observed; and the persons concerned in it not left to their own wills, and discretion, in their own case.[15]

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

Just some more food for thought, since the reality of today's world is that 50% of marriages end in divorce, and that is probably a true statistic for those in the Church, too. It is an imperfect world, and sometimes there is a lesser of two evils involved.

For instance, it would be better for a woman to divorce her husband than to murder the husband (or mutilate him, i.e. Lorena Bobbitt) who was continually abusing her. Paul said that to avoid fornication, it is better to marry. What is better, remarrying or "living together" out of marriage. For the never-married, is it better to avoid marriage altogether yet "live in sin", than to avoid the "bondage" of a possible unhappy marriage? As we have seen, Moses permitted divorce and remarriage, because of the imperfect world he was living in.

 

[Key Of David]

Ironic that you choose that name yet seems you practice and preach something so different. Even more ironic that in a previous thread you refer to yourself as single, and use the term "us" ans "we". You even post in the singles forum yet you resent that divorcees should have intimate interactions with never been married.

This was obvious to me too, but, well, what ukok said.

It's all really a matter of accepting CHRIST's teaching, and not hiding or squirming away from it.

This is making a judgment call on other Christians whom you don't know what might be going through one's heart. It's really not a matter of obedience, but what you are hanging onto as if Christ can't deliver you from it. It isn't meant to be sometimes that someone has the "eyes to see". I made that call on you, instead of judging you as a disobedient child. People who try to lead others into their own desperate situation (because they don't want to be alone in it, another irony of yours) will always use a guilt trip (sounds like a disfunctional parent doesn't it) on those niave enough. If you can hit a Christian at his core (his faith), then you got him hook, line, and sinker. Too bad not many fish are biting today.

 

[Key Of David]

I was reading the Roman Catholic position on this (I am Presbyterian), and the supporting scriptures:

Divorce & Remarriage - Is divorce and remarriage permitted in Christianity? No, Jesus Christ and St. Paul both forbade a divorced person to get remarried while their spouse was still alive (Matthew 5:32; 19:9; Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18; Romans 7:2-3; 1 Corinthians 7:10-11, 39).

It's no surprise that you would use them as a "defense". Most of their policies and what they worship don't have anything to do with the bible. Don't believe me? Ask them. Ask a wiccan. It is a well known fact. They admit it. Why do they continue? Well some get out when they learn of this, but as for the rest of them?

Anyone who puts restrictions on you (mandatory celibacy, going through a priest of the "Church" in order to confess your sins to your Saviour) is not from God or His Word. With God you are a free person, every day is a new day in Christ Jesus Our Lord.

 

[Warrior Poet]

Debating church doctrine is something far different then the "literal" word of Jesus Christ.

D of K you nailed it brother. On both posts.

Church doctrine is a simpe interpretaion, Matthew is the only book that quotes Jesus saying, "except for", but it is overlooked because why? I still to this day have no clue, everything Jesus said was to be taken literal after all, they are his word (obvious metaphores and parables had there purpose). So simply is Jesus contradicting hiself NO. His talk to the mass's, they were to doubters and non believers, people that had lived an adulteress life from the get go. He had to be stern with them, after all if these women/men had a change of heart the chance that there significant other would walk out on them highly greatend, He knew this. But the mass's represent those who doubt even now a days, non-believers, they can then question how is he all forgiving then? Simple. Behind closed doors he told his disiples that followed him (us as believers) to deture divorce by all means, and if the unfortunit cicumstance arrives where it happens, then let them choose if they want to remain single, or reamarry if called to do so. In that case the vitality of the rest of his teaching about being single and that lifestyle become ever important. This is exactly where the singles ministry can become a very positive place for interaction, not intamicy. As, if the "church" caters to that atmosphere, its intended to be FOR ALL SINGLES. The "out" he speaks of is specifically meant for those that are active believers those that try at every chance to be christlike, but no matter how hard or much you try you will fail, thats where the grace of our God becomes an amazing gift.

Warrior Poet

 

[desi]

I thought you said you were staying on that reservation for a whole month desi...

I negotiate a 5 day pass.

I find your comments utterly offensive. The baggage that you describe , happens to be my two beautiful children....as for being 'excluded' from marrying 'true' Christians - that implies that I am not a 'true' Christian myself and that i should remain forever single...oh, dear...i think we are going to disagree again...

You misquoted me, I'm not surprised nor am I utterly offended. I said true Christian singles aka not divorced. Your children also carry emotional baggage because you and your first husband couldn't "keep it together" as such they are statistically at higher risk for drug use, sexual abuse by a boyfriend, early sexual activity etc... This is not a slight against you, it is fact. If you are offeneded by it I don't care, my sisters fit the statistics hopefully your children won't. You have done a great disservice to your children by wrecking their family via divorce. The bible backs me up on this despite the myriad of mods who will inevitably come to your defence out of misplaced sympathy.

wvmtnkid...i appreciate your sensitivity and respectful attitude to ALL Christians. Thank you.

That wasn't my aim, nor was it Christs when he called the Pharisees on their hypocrisy.

 

[desi]

I find this comment extremely offensive as well. Some of us who 'disrespected marriage and God' worked hard to save a failing marriage, even when we weren't happy in the marriage either. However, when a spouse decides to walk away, that becomes a choice they made and we just have to get on with life. Divorcees have become known as 'pond scum' partly because of attitudes displayed as the said quoter above.

Enslow

My name's desi, use it. People like you I feel sympathy and contempt for but the contempt is not your fault. The contempt is for impotence/ignorance to move your partner to stay in the marriage. Long ago my mother divorced my father and he did all he could to save the marriage which wasn't enough. Now one sister is on her fifth kid from the fourth father and the other is a drug addict somewhere in California; hence, I hate divorce and everything it leads to. In my marriage my wife has pulled the divorce card and it backfired miserably on her because I knew how to handle it. My point in this thread is what makes people like you think you can head off divorce if you marry another single person and what makes the initiators of divorce think it will work this time when it has failed before? Both types of divorced people have crummy track records I wouldn't bet on.

Edit I don't look at divorced people as scum or less than anyone else. I do look at them with understanding and compassion in light of their past, just like I wouldn't let a reformed alcoholic run a liquor store.

 

[BigToe]

desi, badmouthing mods is neither smart nor an admirable way to make an argument.

and to say that all kids of divorced parents get messed up is truly ignorant and quite arrogant as well. my parents are divorced and i am just fine. my sister is just fine. in fact now we have even more family members to shower us with their love. some people shouldn't stay married- for they truly had no businiess getting married in the first place. oftentimes REMAINING married can prove to be more harmful to your children than splitting up.

 

[BigToe]

and you cannot FORCE someone to not file for divorce. to force anyone to share your point of view or to stay somewhere just because YOU want it is not healthy. its quite pitiful to be honest.

 

[desi]

and to say that all kids of divorced parents get messed up is truly ignorant and quite arrogant as well.

So you don't know what "statistically at higher risk" means?

 

[desi]

and you cannot FORCE someone to not file for divorce.

If you know your spouse and how to handle divorce threats you can usually persuade them out of it.

 

[BigToe]

ok so obviously people cannot make up their own minds on what is best for their own lives? sure, a happy marraige is one where threats are made, especially ones of divorce.

and yes, i know what it means, but you make it sound as if its much worse than reality is. most of my friends have divorced parents. and most are just fine, strong christians, and are very glad to have more people to share their lives with.

i dont know about you, but i sure didnt want my parents to stay married. they were able to avoid fighting in front of me- i am glad it didnt progress into anything violent. you know God allows things to happwn for a reason.

 

[Caedmon]

"The invalid assumption that correlation implies cause is probably among the two or three most serious and common errors of human reasoning."

Stephen Jay Gould. The Mismeasure of Man

 

[desi]

ok so obviously people cannot make up their own minds on what is best for their own lives? sure, a happy marraige is one where threats are made, especially ones of divorce.

and yes, i know what it means, but you make it sound as if its much worse than reality is. most of my friends have divorced parents. and most are just fine, strong christians, and are very glad to have more people to share their lives with.

i dont know about you, but i sure didnt want my parents to stay married. they were able to avoid fighting in front of me- i am glad it didnt progress into anything violent. you know God allows things to happwn for a reason.

I disagree with your whole post. What beverly hills 90210 divorce did you roll out of? The reality of divorce is that feeling of having your guts ripped out because daddy has to move away and mommy is letting some guy named Don move in who is mean and yells alot when he drinks beer. Its hearing your sisters sob at night because they miss dad. Its living in a small house wearing good will clothes because mom and dad are poor since they have to pay for two separate residences. Its watching dad silently listen to the same old crummy songs over and over and over on the weekend which remind him of her. Its going to family functions where my sisters and I are the only kids with one parent which causes us to think about what it would be like if they were still together. Its going to a babysitter at 6 AM and getting picked up at 9 PM because mommy had work then night school/disco time. I can go on... God specifically forbid divorce and people are choosing to disobey his instruction so most children of divorce go through hell.

 

[BigToe]

ok your mom may have gone on to have don move in, but that is NOT the case for all divorces, nor is it the norm. and it is incredibly insulting and not showing God's love for you to assume that since I didn't have to wear Good Will clothes that I came from some 90210 divorce. Yes, some divorces are nasty and do cause emotional distress, but again, please do not FORCE your opinion or your experience on others. There are those of us whose experiences dictate quite the opposite of yours.

Also, have you checked your Good Will recently? there are some good clothes in there and I CHOOSE to shop there sometimes.

 

[ukok]

I negotiate a 5 day pass.



You misquoted me, I'm not surprised nor am I utterly offended. I said true Christian singles aka not divorced. Your children also carry emotional baggage because you and your first husband couldn't "keep it together" as such they are statistically at higher risk for drug use, sexual abuse by a boyfriend, early sexual activity etc... This is not a slight against you, it is fact. If you are offeneded by it I don't care, my sisters fit the statistics hopefully your children won't. You have done a great disservice to your children by wrecking their family via divorce. The bible backs me up on this despite the myriad of mods who will inevitably come to your defence out of misplaced sympathy.


That wasn't my aim, nor was it Christs when he called the Pharisees on their hypocrisy.

Ok, let's just take a look at this shall we?...





You said, "you misquoted me",

nope, i don't think so, this is what you said in your earlier post :

Quote: Originally Posted by: desi

" I find it offensive when divorced people are welcomed at singles church events. Divorce implies either a disrespect to marriage and God, or poor judgement in partner selection. The baggage of both of which should at least exclude them from marrying true Christian singles. " ( italic and bold emphasis mine)



To what 'baggage, are you then referring, desi, if it is not that which the marriage produced ?

You said:

I'm not surprised nor am I utterly offended.

I somehow didn't expect you to be...

You then said:

I said true Christian singles aka not divorced.

Are you seriously telling me that i am not a Christian ? Doesn't that violate one of the rules of CF, you are casting aspersions on my claim as Christian, based upon your own idea of what that might be, when Christ Himself tells me different. I have His Word in the Bible, that i am His, i take His word over yours any day of the week.

Your children also carry emotional baggage because you and your first husband couldn't "keep it together"

You are making too many presumptions, my children are not statistics, and as far as 'keeping it together' is concerned, i did quite an admirable job of keeping my family together, despite the enormous efforts that my husband made to destroy every shred of normality that our family had.

as such they are statistically at higher risk for drug use, sexual abuse by a boyfriend, early sexual activity etc...

That would be those statistics speaking again, wouldn't it ? This does not take into account, nor give credit to, the enormously positive impact that leaving the former marital home, has had upon the children - they seriously couldn't have had a much worse role model than the man that i was married to, THAT nearly destroyed them, not the peace that we have now.

This is not a slight against you, it is fact.

Glad to hear it, although i don't honestly believe it...

If you are offeneded by it I don't care,

Ahh...i knew i was right!...you don't want to be offensive, but you don't care if you are....i smell something fishy....

my sisters fit the statistics hopefully your children won't.

I am not one of your sisters, my parents were not your parents, we have completely different experiences. Whether my children have divorced parents or not, doesn't indicate in any seriousness their probable outcome, you constantly miss that point.

You have done a great disservice to your children by wrecking their family via divorce.

I call that slander. I did not 'wreck' my family, my husband did that all by himself, throughout our marriage.

The bible backs me

Does it really, desi ?...show me the scripture that says, " allow your husband to abuse you and abuse your children, put up with it, let him kill you if he has to...just DON'T LEAVE the FAMILY HOME...'cos I won't love you anymore, and you will no longer be a TRUE Christian"

...I'm waiting Desi...

...up on this despite the myriad of mods who will inevitably come to your defence out of misplaced sympathy.



Mmm, insulting Moderators as well as divorcees, methinks this thread will soon be closed...



You then go on to quote me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by: ukok



wvmtnkid...i appreciate your sensitivity and respectful attitude to ALL Christians. Thank you.



And respond with...

That wasn't my aim, nor was it Christs when he called the Pharisees on their hypocrisy.

So, let me get this straight, you think that you are Christ like in your approach to divorcees ? And you think that either I, or the Moderators, or all of us, are akin to the Pharisees ... Your gonna take a fall from that high horse of yours one day desi....





Ok, now that's out of the way...desi, you have an important contirbution to make here, you seem to know so much about how divorcees are not 'true' Christians (incidentally, does that mean that we are not Christians at all, since i've never heard of a 'half Christian' ?). Tell us all, how might we remain in our marriages, when the love has gone, when we are abused physically, emotionally, psychologically ? I mean, you keep telling us that it isn't right, but you never tell us how to stay in that marriage. You say, God doesn't like divorce, well heck, we know that, we didn't mean for our marriages to end, but when you have given every part of yourself, when you have been hurt and abused and your children have cried themselves to sleep night after night, year after year, how does that marriage survive ?

What if you can't involve the police or other family members for fear of the retribution that you will incurr, for doing so, what if it's you and him, and he takes every opportunity to harm you ? What then ? Throughout history Christians have been persecuted for their beliefs, are you saying that we should remain in such situations because we are Christians, posssibly lose our lives at the hands of a violent man ( or woman), allow our children to be timid, fragile, emotional wrecks who are scared to 'wake up daddy' at 2pm in the afternoon, and incurr his wrath ? So tell us all the secret...you seem to know so much about marriage...

Now, I want to digress slightly and ask you to consider this ~ you say that Divorce = 'drug abuse, early sexual activity, sexual abuse by boyfriends etc", - for the children of the 'broken' marriage, I say that it doesn't have to be that way even if it sometimes is for some people.

Take me, ( obviously you wouldn't want me, so that's just a little joke), I come from a family that is rock solid, my parents will have been married for 40 years next December, they still hold hands, they still love one another deeply, they have never abused one another, never had affairs, devote all their time to one another, never argued seriously, ( only about daft things ). They had two children, me and my brother. My brother was a 'straight A student', he did well at school, passed all his exams, moved away from home to go to university, earned his degree, got a job in the Police force, worked darned hard, and is now Police Sargeant and is awaiting the result of his Inspectors Examination. He is married and has a family of his own and he is relatively SORTED.

I on the other hand, though having exactly the same parents, and benefitting equally from the love and solid foundation of family, that they gave to us, became the teenager from HELL.

At fifteen, I was worrying my parents sick by staying out till 5 o'clock in the morning, riding on the back of guy's motorbikes, generally being a rebellious little madam. I left home at about 17 ( with 1 meagre exam pass, and that was in art!), and thus began an incredible roller coaster ride through different relationships, different Cities, bizzarre experiences etc. I suppose i am what society might describe as being a bit of a 'loser'!

Thing is desi, I dabbled in drugs (nothing heavy, only pot, though i knew many who did heroin), i drank, i had many sexual encounters, I was the 'nightmare scenario' that you described, and i had the same loving, wonderful parents as my brother did.

My point is this, it can happen to anyone. Anyone, irrelevant of their family history, can turn out just like i did. I can't tell you of how many people i have met who have had severe social problems, and their 'very together' parents have been mystified at the things that their children have done and the things that they have become involved in. Your inferrance that social misfits are the prime product of marital breakdown leads me to believe that you haven't met many people, if the only stable people you know are those whose parents are still together.

To sumarise, i believe that you are wrong if you think that the same could never happen to you, because you don't know what is around the corner of life and it is very arrogant to suppose that everything will always be the way that it is for you at this moment in time.

As for my children, they are no longer abused, they no longer see or hear Mummy being abused, they can make a noise here, they can speak freely here. I once had a phone call from school ( when we were still in the marital home) asking me to go and see my daughter's teacher. Full of concern, i dashed around to school. The teacher was quite distressed, she said that in all the time that my daughter had been in her class, she NEVER smiled. She asked me why that might be, were there problems at home?... Desi, how could i tell thew teacher that at home, she was called names, that terrible sickening things were said about her since she was 3 years old?

How could i tell the teacher that she never got to sleep at night because she was woken up night after night listening to 'Daddy' shouting, how could i tell the teacher that he would wake us up and make us get out of our beds - sometimes we weren't allowed to sleep if he wasn't sleeping himself?. Tell me, desi, what do you do, do you remain in that situation, or do you find freedom for your children?

My childen have a far better life now than they EVER had when we were living in the marital home. Now they have clothes and food and the bills are paid, now they sleep ( although it is taking a long time to break the cycle of expecting to be awoken at night) safely, they do incredibly well at school, they have friends and they are loved and nurtured, as they should have been in their younger years.

I won't tell you the things that happened while we were in the marital home, i think you should be able to use your 'understanding' to determine from what i have already said, that it was BAD.

Lastly desi, i do not need your acceptance, i need God's and i am assured that i DO have it. I don't have to justify myself here, i am only answerable to the Lord. But when you spout forth about the damage that I have done, i will not allow such incriminations to go unnoticed.

 

[LifeInYou]

ukok,
I love reading your posts. You have turned out amazing considering all you've endured. You are intelligent, logical, sincere, and Christ-like. Thank you.

 

[ceres]

My parents are divorced and I did not turn out dysfunctional.

 

[BigToe]

heh, i actually think that the bible says there are times when divorce is ok. and i am pretty sure that ukok's situation fits in one of them. so please, instead of rushing to conclusions about people- why don't we show them God's love and get to know them.