Don't Know Where I Fit

[stavros388]

I love the spiritual depth of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, especially the traditional hymns and the rigorous spiritual practices. However, I have an aversion to dogmatism and have come to agree with the priesthood of all believers and do not want my own understanding of Scripture to be codified. I believe deeply that Christians are called to become more and more like Christ, to die to oneself daily. However I do not and have never believed the Bible to be literally true but while inspired, written by several different authors with different perspectives and even purposes. I am very much against discrimination of homosexuals, I support feminism, I support medically assisted dying, and I support separation of Church and state. I believe in evolution and an old earth. And while I don't believe in many things a lot of Christians hold as precious dogma, I do very much believe in the call of Jesus to follow Him, to serve, to become empty of ourselves to let God's will be worked through us in obedience to Him. I am a pacifist with a strong Mennonite ancestry. I have never had a born again experience. I believe God is Love above all else and I want to follow Jesus but have become wary of 'religion'. I believe in the writings of the Hesychasts and Quakers and saints who seek God in prayer and in silence. I find the legalism of the Catholics (I was one briefly) to be stifling and against Biblical writing. I am fine with female priests. I believe we should be hard on ourselves but forgiving and accepting of others. I believe the Bible is filled with wisdom and much of it is mistaken for literal truth when much of it is symbolic and even metaphorical, beneficial for inner transformational purposes. I don't know if I fit within any particular creed or denomination so mostly do not attend church services anymore, my experience having been primarily in the Orthodox and Catholic communities.

Any suggestions?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Continually Read the BIBLE, ask GOD for TRUTH,
and seek and keep seeking HIM. HE KNOWS.

 

[stavros388]

Continually Read the BIBLE, ask GOD for TRUTH,
and seek and keep seeking HIM. HE KNOWS.

Yes, good advice. Thanks. I am often guilty of trying to 'think' my way to God, I admit.

 

[JackRT]

I love the spiritual depth of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, especially the traditional hymns and the rigorous spiritual practices. However, I have an aversion to dogmatism and have come to agree with the priesthood of all believers and do not want my own understanding of Scripture to be codified. I believe deeply that Christians are called to become more and more like Christ, to die to oneself daily. However I do not and have never believed the Bible to be literally true but while inspired, written by several different authors with different perspectives and even purposes. I am very much against discrimination of homosexuals, I support feminism, I support medically assisted dying, and I support separation of Church and state. I believe in evolution and an old earth. And while I don't believe in many things a lot of Christians hold as precious dogma, I do very much believe in the call of Jesus to follow Him, to serve, to become empty of ourselves to let God's will be worked through us in obedience to Him. I am a pacifist with a strong Mennonite ancestry. I have never had a born again experience. I believe God is Love above all else and I want to follow Jesus but have become wary of 'religion'. I believe in the writings of the Hesychasts and Quakers and saints who seek God in prayer and in silence. I find the legalism of the Catholics (I was one briefly) to be stifling and against Biblical writing. I am fine with female priests. I believe we should be hard on ourselves but forgiving and accepting of others. I believe the Bible is filled with wisdom and much of it is mistaken for literal truth when much of it is symbolic and even metaphorical, beneficial for inner transformational purposes. I don't know if I fit within any particular creed or denomination so mostly do not attend church services anymore, my experience having been primarily in the Orthodox and Catholic communities.

Any suggestions?

You and I seem to be walking much the same path. I self-identify as a progressive or liberal Christian. I find much of my inspiration from such bible scholars as Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, John Shelby Spong and others. There is a small but growing number of like minded congregations within some of the mainline churches. Go with God my friend.

 

[pdudgeon]

I love the spiritual depth of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, especially the traditional hymns and the rigorous spiritual practices. However, I have an aversion to dogmatism and have come to agree with the priesthood of all believers and do not want my own understanding of Scripture to be codified. I believe deeply that Christians are called to become more and more like Christ, to die to oneself daily. However I do not and have never believed the Bible to be literally true but while inspired, written by several different authors with different perspectives and even purposes. I am very much against discrimination of homosexuals, I support feminism, I support medically assisted dying, and I support separation of Church and state. I believe in evolution and an old earth. And while I don't believe in many things a lot of Christians hold as precious dogma, I do very much believe in the call of Jesus to follow Him, to serve, to become empty of ourselves to let God's will be worked through us in obedience to Him. I am a pacifist with a strong Mennonite ancestry. I have never had a born again experience. I believe God is Love above all else and I want to follow Jesus but have become wary of 'religion'. I believe in the writings of the Hesychasts and Quakers and saints who seek God in prayer and in silence. I find the legalism of the Catholics (I was one briefly) to be stifling and against Biblical writing. I am fine with female priests. I believe we should be hard on ourselves but forgiving and accepting of others. I believe the Bible is filled with wisdom and much of it is mistaken for literal truth when much of it is symbolic and even metaphorical, beneficial for inner transformational purposes. I don't know if I fit within any particular creed or denomination so mostly do not attend church services anymore, my experience having been primarily in the Orthodox and Catholic communities.

Any suggestions?

it seems that you don't have a problem with God, but with man's teachings about God. and that having learned a lot of those teachings, you are trying to sort through them to see which is meat to be eaten and which is bone to be spat out.

in addition to the above it would also seem that you have absorbed quite a lot of
social justice teachings as well as the theological teachings. and also that the two are equally held and mixed up together with no differential between the two as to priority, origin, or cause and effect.

in sumary, you seem to hold all of these various teachings as being of equal value, without distinguishing between true or false, and also without differentiation or regard to their moral value or lack of it.

in essence you have a compass without a needle to point you in the right direction.

 

[Daryl Gleason]

I love the spiritual depth of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, especially the traditional hymns and the rigorous spiritual practices. However, I have an aversion to dogmatism and have come to agree with the priesthood of all believers and do not want my own understanding of Scripture to be codified. I believe deeply that Christians are called to become more and more like Christ, to die to oneself daily. However I do not and have never believed the Bible to be literally true but while inspired, written by several different authors with different perspectives and even purposes. I am very much against discrimination of homosexuals, I support feminism, I support medically assisted dying, and I support separation of Church and state. I believe in evolution and an old earth. And while I don't believe in many things a lot of Christians hold as precious dogma, I do very much believe in the call of Jesus to follow Him, to serve, to become empty of ourselves to let God's will be worked through us in obedience to Him. I am a pacifist with a strong Mennonite ancestry. I have never had a born again experience. I believe God is Love above all else and I want to follow Jesus but have become wary of 'religion'. I believe in the writings of the Hesychasts and Quakers and saints who seek God in prayer and in silence. I find the legalism of the Catholics (I was one briefly) to be stifling and against Biblical writing. I am fine with female priests. I believe we should be hard on ourselves but forgiving and accepting of others. I believe the Bible is filled with wisdom and much of it is mistaken for literal truth when much of it is symbolic and even metaphorical, beneficial for inner transformational purposes. I don't know if I fit within any particular creed or denomination so mostly do not attend church services anymore, my experience having been primarily in the Orthodox and Catholic communities.

Any suggestions?

Hello, and grace and peace to you from the Father and the lord Jesus Christ.

Sincerely, my best suggestion would be to seek to receive the holy spirit, as in Luke 11:9-13. Once he comes to you, all of the things you have mentioned will begin to be made clear to you, as well as many others.

All humans, including myself, can only tell you things that you can receive (if you wish) and understand in your mind, but the holy spirit can write the truth in your heart. He is the only one who can do that, and his truth is the only one that really matters.

In Christ,
Daryl

 

[JackRT]

Hello, and grace and peace to you from the Father and the lord Jesus Christ.

Sincerely, my best suggestion would be to seek to receive the holy spirit, as in Luke 11:9-13. Once he comes to you, all of the things you have mentioned will begin to be made clear to you, as well as many others.

All humans, including myself, can only tell you things that you can receive (if you wish) and understand in your mind, but the holy spirit can write the truth in your heart. He is the only one who can do that, and his truth is the only one that really matters.

In Christ,
Daryl

From my perspective it seems almost certain that Stavros has already received the Holy Spirit and is following her promptings.

 

[timewerx]

I love the spiritual depth of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, especially the traditional hymns and the rigorous spiritual practices. However, I have an aversion to dogmatism and have come to agree with the priesthood of all believers and do not want my own understanding of Scripture to be codified. I believe deeply that Christians are called to become more and more like Christ, to die to oneself daily. However I do not and have never believed the Bible to be literally true but while inspired, written by several different authors with different perspectives and even purposes. I am very much against discrimination of homosexuals, I support feminism, I support medically assisted dying, and I support separation of Church and state. I believe in evolution and an old earth. And while I don't believe in many things a lot of Christians hold as precious dogma, I do very much believe in the call of Jesus to follow Him, to serve, to become empty of ourselves to let God's will be worked through us in obedience to Him. I am a pacifist with a strong Mennonite ancestry. I have never had a born again experience. I believe God is Love above all else and I want to follow Jesus but have become wary of 'religion'. I believe in the writings of the Hesychasts and Quakers and saints who seek God in prayer and in silence. I find the legalism of the Catholics (I was one briefly) to be stifling and against Biblical writing. I am fine with female priests. I believe we should be hard on ourselves but forgiving and accepting of others. I believe the Bible is filled with wisdom and much of it is mistaken for literal truth when much of it is symbolic and even metaphorical, beneficial for inner transformational purposes. I don't know if I fit within any particular creed or denomination so mostly do not attend church services anymore, my experience having been primarily in the Orthodox and Catholic communities.

Any suggestions?

When I was new to the Bible, I started reading from Matthew up to John. And that's it.

I did not read Acts to Revelations. I just browsed it a bit I found most of it to be confusing mass of literature.

 

[stavros388]

it seems that you don't have a problem with God, but with man's teachings about God. and that having learned a lot of those teachings, you are trying to sort through them to see which is meat to be eaten and which is bone to be spat out.

in addition to the above it would also seem that you have absorbed quite a lot of
social justice teachings as well as the theological teachings. and also that the two are equally held and mixed up together with no differential between the two as to priority, origin, or cause and effect.

in sumary, you seem to hold all of these various teachings as being of equal value, without distinguishing between true or false, and also without differentiation or regard to their moral value or lack of it.

in essence you have a compass without a needle to point you in the right direction.

My social convictions are my own and are founded on many variables, including my upbringing and, primarily, my experiences with human beings (and are not merely due to my absorbing 'social justice teachings').

 

[stavros388]

You and I seem to be walking much the same path. I self-identify as a progressive or liberal Christian. I find much of my inspiration from such bible scholars as Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, John Shelby Spong and others. There is a small but growing number of like minded congregations within some of the mainline churches. Go with God my friend.

Good to know! Thanks. I read Spong many years ago but will perhaps have a look at Borg and Crossan, also.

 

[JackRT]

Good to know! Thanks. I read Spong many years ago but will perhaps have a look at Borg and Crossan, also.

Spong is still writing. A funny story: years ago I went to a seminar of his at a nearby church. I had never met him before. As a precaution I went to the men's room and as I stood at the urinal a man in ecclesiastical garb went to the adjacent one. It was John Spong taking the same precaution.

 

[Daryl Gleason]

From my perspective it seems almost certain that Stavros has already received the Holy Spirit and is following her promptings.

Stavros said that he has never had a born-again experience (and I appreciate that confession). This alone indicates that he has not yet received the holy spirit, because when the holy spirit comes to a person, there is no mistaking it. Among other things, it's like having been blind all of one's life and being able to see for the very first time; it's quite dramatic.

As for other statements made, I'll refrain from getting into them here out of respect for Stavros, since if and when he receives the holy spirit, it is the spirit who will lead him into all truth (John 16:13), and my words will hardly matter.

In Christ,
Daryl

 

[JackRT]

Stavros said that he has never had a born-again experience (and I appreciate that confession). This alone indicates that he has not yet received the holy spirit, because when the holy spirit comes to a person, there is no mistaking it. Among other things, it's like having been blind all of one's life and being able to see for the very first time; it's quite dramatic.

As for other statements made, I'll refrain from getting into them here out of respect for Stavros, since if and when he receives the holy spirit, it is the spirit who will lead him into all truth (John 16:13), and my words will hardly matter.

In Christ,
Daryl

The 'born again experience " is aptly named. Just as in an actual birth, some are rapid and very dramatic. Others are very slow and very painful. Not all births are identical.

 

[Daryl Gleason]

The 'born again experience " is aptly named. Just as in an actual birth, some are rapid and very dramatic. Others are very slow and very painful. Not all births are identical.

You won't find an example in the Bible where the receiving of the holy spirit was not as I described. It comes with seeing old things in new ways and the shedding of false beliefs in light of the truth.

Now, if we're to speak of the process of being healed/set free/delivered/transformed after receiving the spirit, that certainly can be a slow and arduous process.

In Christ,
Daryl

 

[graceandpeace]

I love the spiritual depth of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, especially the traditional hymns and the rigorous spiritual practices. However, I have an aversion to dogmatism and have come to agree with the priesthood of all believers and do not want my own understanding of Scripture to be codified. I believe deeply that Christians are called to become more and more like Christ, to die to oneself daily. However I do not and have never believed the Bible to be literally true but while inspired, written by several different authors with different perspectives and even purposes. I am very much against discrimination of homosexuals, I support feminism, I support medically assisted dying, and I support separation of Church and state. I believe in evolution and an old earth. And while I don't believe in many things a lot of Christians hold as precious dogma, I do very much believe in the call of Jesus to follow Him, to serve, to become empty of ourselves to let God's will be worked through us in obedience to Him. I am a pacifist with a strong Mennonite ancestry. I have never had a born again experience. I believe God is Love above all else and I want to follow Jesus but have become wary of 'religion'. I believe in the writings of the Hesychasts and Quakers and saints who seek God in prayer and in silence. I find the legalism of the Catholics (I was one briefly) to be stifling and against Biblical writing. I am fine with female priests. I believe we should be hard on ourselves but forgiving and accepting of others. I believe the Bible is filled with wisdom and much of it is mistaken for literal truth when much of it is symbolic and even metaphorical, beneficial for inner transformational purposes. I don't know if I fit within any particular creed or denomination so mostly do not attend church services anymore, my experience having been primarily in the Orthodox and Catholic communities.

Any suggestions?

I think the Episcopal Church would be a close match to what you seek. (I'm not just saying this because I'm Episcopalian). A typical worship service is liturgical, with hymns, prayers, & the Eucharist is the prime focus. The church ordains women & is generally LGBT affirming.

Other possible choices would be among other Mainline Protestant groups with traditional worship service options, such as a liturgical Evangelical Lutheran Church (ELCA).

 

[stavros388]

I think the Episcopal Church would be a close match to what you seek. (I'm not just saying this because I'm Episcopalian). A typical worship service is liturgical, with hymns, prayers, & the Eucharist is the prime focus. The church ordains women & is generally LGBT affirming.

Other possible choices would be among other Mainline Protestant groups with traditional worship service options, such as a liturgical Evangelical Lutheran Church (ELCA).

Thanks, graceandpeace! I have considered an Episcopalian church but it isn't an option where I live. There is nearby, however, an Anglican and United Church of Canada shared ministry. I suspect it would be similar. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[stavros388]

Or... Are Anglican and Episcopalian the same thing??

 

[Goodbook]

Or... Are Anglican and Episcopalian the same thing??

Yes Its Church of England by another name.

 

[Goodbook]

Sounds like you a prime candidate for theology school. I dont think you seeking a church at all but a way to fomulate/articulate your own beliefs.

When you born again God finds you, till then dont go to any church. It will just confuse you plus you will be expected to love and fellowhsip with all these people! Who are christians! And believe the Bible is true. It doesnt seem you ready for that.

Just read the Bible.

 

[graceandpeace]

Thanks, graceandpeace! I have considered an Episcopalian church but it isn't an option where I live. There is nearby, however, an Anglican and United Church of Canada shared ministry. I suspect it would be similar. Thank you for the suggestion.

Or... Are Anglican and Episcopalian the same thing??

Ok, I didn't realize you are in Canada.

So, in this case I would suggest the Anglican Church of Canada.
http://www.anglican.ca

Both the US Episcopal Church & the Anglican Church of Canada are members of the Anglican Communion. Both are typically more progressive, & both typically offer traditional worship, but it's best to research a parish, as local options can vary. Anglican & Episcopal are interchangeable terms, with different provinces of the Anglican Communion using different names.

Looking at other Mainline Protestant churches in your area is another possibility (the United Church of Canada you mentioned is an example). There would (should) be similar values, though not all options may have the liturgical, traditional worship your post suggests you're looking for. You really just have to research your options to find out where they stand & what the worship services are like.