Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

CharismaticLady said:

Do you honestly believe Jesus doesn't take away their sin?

Click to expand...

When you say “take away their sin”... I believe we mean this and understand it differently.

I understand this... Colossians 2:14 ; Hebrews 2:14 ; 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 ; Deuteronomy 6:4 ; Romans 4:1-6 ; Galatians 5:4 ; 2 Corinthians 5:21

Danthemailman said:

Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Click to expand...

I notice how it says "to turn" people "from the power of Satan to God". So, Satan's children are in his power. And our Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:2 says there is >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

And elsewhere he has said we in sin were slaves of sin . . . not free. Adam and Eve's wills were free before they fell. They lost their freedom, when they fell to Satan and his evil spirit > Ephesians 2:2. And now we see how people are being worked-in by Satan's evil spirit . . . of selfishness. Their evil nature is dictating the choices they make, and what they are thinking and how they are reacting and being driven by dominating and dictatorial demands for pleasure.

Our true character has a lot to do with what we are capable of choosing. Jesus says, "without Me you can do nothing," in John 15:5.

So, only in Jesus are we capable of choosing what is really good >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Of ourselves, we are not good; only God is good. Only God in us can have us willing and doing what is good. And He is almighty to keep us with Him. We do not have the sufficiency to keep ourselves willing and not failing. "My grace is sufficient for you," Jesus says in 2 Corinthians 12:9. So we depend on Him.

But are we perfectly incapable of sinning? Paul told the Philippians how they had increased in their obedience, even while Paul was absent > Philippians 2:12. Why did their obedience increase? Because "God gave the increase." (in Corinthians 3:6) Because, as he says in the next verse, God is the One working in our willing and doing > Philippians 2:13. He works in our wills so our obedience is increasing.

Even so, can we do wrong things and be the wrong way? Can we become unforgiving, can we become dominating and controlling of other people, can we get nasty at someone instead of first caring for the person in prayer to bless the person? Can we argue or complain? Can we worry and fear (1 John 4:17-18, Philippians 4:6-7? Can our attention get away from staying submissive to how our Father rules us with His own peace in our "hearts"? (Colossians 3:15)

Paul says,

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation," (in Philippians 2:13-16)

Paul says to stop complaining and arguing, so that we "may become" "without fault". He says this to the Philippians who he just said have increased in their obedience because of God's working in their wills. And yet it looks like they still needed to become "without fault". So, from this I can see how we can be with God in us, but we still need more correction against how we still can sin because of our faults.

Plus, Hebrews 12:4-14 guarantees how every child of God gets our Heavenly Father's correction. We don't need correction if we are without sin, I would say. Also, we see what are the guaranteed results of God's correction > we share in His own holiness, in the "peaceable fruit of righteousness" of His love. This is the guaranteed result of God's correction changing our nature to be like Jesus and God's love. From this, I see how if we have trusted in Jesus, we are guaranteed how God will keep us plus change us with real correction so we are "conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29)

We have trusted Him for all He is able to do. So, we are not left to fail in our human will which is not good like God.

Grip Docility said:

I hope you realize 1 John 1:8-10, Romans 2:1 And James 2:8-10 are real.

Click to expand...

I do realize they are real, as I also realize Matt 5:48, Rom 6:7, 1 Cor 15:34, Eph 2:1-3, Titus 1:15-16, and 1 Peter 4:1 are "real".

Grip Docility said:

Luke 18:9

Click to expand...

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)

Phil W said:

I do realize they are real, as I also realize Matt 5:48, Rom 6:7, 1 Cor 15:34, Eph 2:1-3, Titus 1:15-16, and 1 Peter 4:1 are "real".

Click to expand...

IMO, You’re reading it wrong.

Ephesians 6:12 ; John 6:63 ; 1 Corinthians 15:31 ; 2 Corinthians 5:7 ; Matthew 6:22-23

Phil W said:

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)

Click to expand...

Me Too! Sweet!

Wordkeeper said:

When Satan is involved, sin is the issue.

Click to expand...

I think that "sin is the issue" is an overly broad generalization.
Though the devil's "theme" is our destruction...by sin or any other means, sometimes he is mentioned in regard to our victories over him in our adherence to God instead of falling for the "baits".
Like when Jesus resisted, while in the desert forty days.

Moreover, grace is the cure for sin, not illness.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry you can't credit the healings of Jesus or His apostles to the grace of God.
I do.

Danthemailman said:

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Click to expand...

Amen to that!

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness/hates his brother" is connected to "children of the devil."

Click to expand...

I'm in total agreement with you so far...

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. *Such people are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

Click to expand...

Yup, so full of self-righteousness that they ignore verse 6.
The fact that they are in darkness/sin means they cannot say they have no sin.

1 John 1:7 reads - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, (descriptive of believers) we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. *Nothing is mentioned about "remain" in the light or being sinless 100% of the time.

Click to expand...

Well, if your not in the light...where are you?
DARKNESS, and those folks cannot say they have fellowship with God, much less that they have no sin.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

*If believers were sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time (exactly like Jesus Christ) then this verse would be superfluous.

Click to expand...

Not so, as it is meant for those who still walk in darkness...an Advocate is available to them so they can start to walk in the light.
Didn't you use that Advocate once at the beginning of your walk in the light?
I did, and I am beyond grateful.

Grip Docility said:

IMO, You’re reading it wrong.

Ephesians 6:12 ; John 6:63 ; 1 Corinthians 15:31 ; 2 Corinthians 5:7 ; Matthew 6:22-23

Click to expand...

Is the fact that I lobby for perfect obedience before God the give-away that "I am reading it wrong"?
I think I am reading them "perfectly".

Grip Docility said:

Me Too! Sweet!

Click to expand...

So it is Christ in you that commit's sin?
I really doubt it.

Phil W said:

Is the fact that I lobby for perfect obedience before God the give-away that "I am reading it wrong"?
I think I am reading them "perfectly".

Click to expand...

Phil W said:

So it is Christ in you that commit's sin?
I really doubt it.

Click to expand...

No

CharismaticLady said:

Question: Does speaking in tongues help you to not sin?

Click to expand...

Every gift from God helps me not to sin.
Including: His word, prayer, the Holy Ghost, my own history/remembrances rooted in Him, and study.

Phil W said:

I think that "sin is the issue" is an overly broad generalization.
Though the devil's "theme" is our destruction...by sin or any other means, sometimes he is mentioned in regard to our victories over him in our adherence to God instead of falling for the "baits".
Like when Jesus resisted, while in the desert forty days.

Click to expand...

The term Satan, serpent could easily be replaced by the voice of the carnal nature everyone possesses. An alcoholic hears, "Is a small one really going to get me off the band wagon?"

Isreal was enamored of all the victories and miracles she had experienced. She thought she was invincible. She set out against the Amalekites and Canaanites at Hormah and was defeated. She tested the Lord, acted without His permission, to glorify herself, when all the miracles were meant to glorify God and turn the people like Rahab, to Him.

When the small voice tempted Jesus to leap from the Temple roof to glorify himself in front of the Jews, He fought back against it, even though He had just experienced the amazing indwelling of the Holy Spirit , saying, "It is written, 'You shall not test the Lord your God'. Every miracle was supposed to turn people to God, was not a gratuitous act.

I'm sorry you can't credit the healings of Jesus or His apostles to the grace of God.
I do.

Click to expand...

Give Scripture where the benefits of grace were healing. Grace is a counterpoint to law, the first one a benign relationship, the second a contract with strict terms and conditions.

CharismaticLady said:

@Phil W , @Wordkeeper

Let's see if you two are on the same page or see if that is possible. What is your definition of God's grace, and how does in manifest itself.?

Click to expand...

There are two ways to receive a benefit. One is by increasing the resources of a sovereign (I made him a chair!) or by responding loyally (He said I'll get a baby, and I believe Him, although I'm an old age pensioner!).

The first is a contractual system, commensurate payments, the second a reciprocity system, unequal gifts.

Benefits of the Law, versus benefits of favoring, grace.