Does this verse disprove Sola Scriptura?

[II Paradox II]

The history of WHAT,WHO, WHERE, WHEN, & WHY, is written already, If you want to be SURE, all you need to do is CLICK OVER to "One Bread One Body"forum and read the postings of KennySe, Michelina, and quite a few other BRIGHT SHINING STARS. They post websites directly to "WHERE THE MOLTEN IRON IS BEING POURED."

The only issue there is that all of them are just posting the opinions of scholars who they like, men who are usually only giving educated guesses about when things were written, the same as the liner notes in your bible. There simply isn't that much hard evidence about this period so we really don't know exactly when theings were written, it's largely educated speculation.

ken

 

[BBAS 64]

(1) No, I do not believe the Didache writers are led away from the Faith, rather, SOME writers and teachers of THIS AGE are led away. The Didache teachers were refering to THE SECOND COMING of CHRIST, not the rupture.

Good Day, Carlos


"And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: 'The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him.' Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (16)

You may whant to rethink your position here.

(2) Yes, I'm slow to understand...lets try another approach;(leaving "Liturgy"aside) lets follow "PROSKUNEO" 4352 ;to kiss, to bow, prostrate oneself in homage, to do reverence to, to adore, to worship."...In scripture we can see that Jesus did both "Leituorgeo" and "Proskuneo"

Have we not done this with in the topic of John 4, Jesus does not condem the worship of the father of the woman as not being worship. Was not the worship in the mountians based upon some form "of"?

(3) Maybe yours is not . Mine is, I depend (trust heavily, look forward to, )when and how we worship....I prefer the prescribed Liturgy form of worship rather than ad lib or what-ever (leaving it up to the creativity of the worship leaders...I have attended "worship services" where the leaders (not following any precept ) launched into a "lets do something creative" mode and hope the Holy Spirit "blesses what WE DO.
very bland and dissapointing!...in that mode you have to work very hard to get even a tiny blessing.GOD PREFERS OBEDIENCE and he has alreasdy written it out in advance....(precept)...(ritual) which is more like;
JUST GET IN THE ELEVATOR and IT will carry you UP to the 15th floor and there you will SEE AWESOME SIGHTS. (the elevator=the prescribed ritual:Liturgy.

Very troubling that you see the blessings of God as some thing to be worked for. You still do not see the bigger picture here. Pure worship, is worship based upon it's nature, and to the form. Was the fact David danced naked be fore the Lord the only reason his worship was true. It this a form of worship that you employ?

Thanks BBAS64, (4) as I understand the OT, all those sacrifices prefigured the ONE SACRIFICE we have now , which Jesus set in place;(Heb. 7:12 & Heb. 10:9&20)"When there is a change of priesthood, there is NECESSARILY a change of law," & "in other words, he takes away the first covenant to ESTABLISH the second." & "by the new and living PATH he has opened up for us through the VEIL (the "veil" meaning his FLESH,)...in every Mass , we offer The Flesh & Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ to the Father along with OUR living bodies (Rom. 12:1), in atonement of our sins and the sins of the whole world.
Do you know of any sacrifice more pure than that? (Mal. 1:11)

Your friend,
Carlos

Change of the preist hood, Where juses is the high preist in the order of Malkesidik [sp] a order that is eternal. He for fullied the 1 st not took it away. Veil= flesh interesting take on the temple veil that was rent in 2.

You can not offer his flesh:

Augustine: You are deprived the flesh of the Lord, because he is not flesh as to be with you but is risen to the right hand of the father. Though he be with us in a sence as to say Lo, I am with you allways.

John : tractates #50,. 4 and 50

I have paraphased this as I am not with all my resources, But I think you get the point.

All sacrifices to God must be pure with out spot, I do not see one as more pure than the other Pure is Pure.

Unless you are talking about soap!

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Doesn't God DEMAND obedience?

I prefer to think of God as Jesus describes Himself; "I AM GENTLE AND HUMBLE OF HEART."..He ordered demons and they left, He commanded sickness and it evaporated. but I have never known Him to demand obedience. obedience, if it is true, comes out of LOYALTY, which is based on LOVE....Praise, Adoration, Obedience, Worship, endurance are all free offerings from our thankful hearts. HE DESERVES IT. he does not demand it....He has always given a choice, he respects the free will he gave us.; in Dt. 28: reward for obed., punishment for disobed,because HE IS GENTLE AND HUMBLE OF HEART.

You offer up (along with Christ) YOUR bodies for your atonement of sins? This hardly sounds pure, and perhaps a little self-glorifying. Maybe you could explain.

Christ Offers Himself to God for the Atonement of our sins.( DIENEKES )
...(we hitch a ride with Him, in His offering, as we offer our living bodies to God; Rom.12;1.)...as if getting into His vehicle, which He drives to Heaven (perpetually, once & for all, one time for all time for all people.)

much like GETTING ON AN ELEVATOR. you put your body on the elevator,
the elevetor carries you up to the top floor and there you get to SEE your place (Eph. 2:6)

...this is not at all self glorifying. it is humbling to ride with him, in Him in HIS OFFERING........my inarticulate words cannot even begin to explain what happens when one offers his own living body to God at the Altar, during the Mass. but if you ever see before Consecration; They pour wine into a Chalice"THE WORD BECAME FLESH...a drop of water is dropped (into the wine which is to become His Blood) in the Chalice...He took on our humanity...(that drop of water is to become me), a partaker of His Divine Nature. THIS IS A SIGN FROM GOD; YOU & I SURRENDER OUR SOUL AND OUR HUMANITY, INTO CHRIST'S BODY & BLOOD, SOUL & DIVINITY
Only God Reveals as we OBEY. that is where SOLA FIDE can can lead you
behind the veil....

"We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with all teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone..

We believe that (without "sole" and "alone")....+ God entrusts to The Church; Apostolic Authority, Sacred Tradition, The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and The Sacrifice of Thanksgiving.

"The Papacy also is nothing bu sheer enthusiasm, by which the Pope boasts that all rights exist in the shrine of his heart,

Sola Scriptura. Pax Christi ChiRho

I'm sorry but I can not agree with that statement (or accusation)....it seems to me like the words of some one with bitterness in his heart.

I will probably get arrested by the MOD for this too!

Carlos

 

[ChiRho]

I prefer to think of God as Jesus describes Himself; "I AM GENTLE AND HUMBLE OF HEART."..He ordered demons and they left, He commanded sickness and it evaporated. but I have never known Him to demand obedience.

Well, what we prefer...sometimes is not what actually is.

Exodus 20


The Ten Commandments

1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 "You shall not make for yourselfan idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Which one of these was intended as a suggestion? Has God not been clear in expressing His dissatisfaction with anything but perfect fulfillment? Is this not what God demands of us? Christ clarifies and sums up the Law perfectly, as we are to understand fully, that God does indeed, demand absolute perfection.

Luke 10
27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Matthew 5

21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before (the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court;

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Which of us accomplishes this?

obedience, if it is true, comes out of LOYALTY, which is based on LOVE....Praise, Adoration, Obedience, Worship, endurance are all free offerings from our thankful hearts. HE DESERVES IT. he does not demand it....He has always given a choice, he respects the free will he gave us.; in Dt. 28: reward for obed., punishment for disobed,because HE IS GENTLE AND HUMBLE OF HEART.

Out of your thankful heart comes Praise, Adoration, Obedience, Worship, endurance as free offerings. I could not make such a statement. What lies in my heart is the very source of rebellion and sin. Steve Parks, a Lutheran Seminarian, rightly expounds upon what truly lies within man's heart and man's inability to measure up to God's demand for perfection in his Critical Review of The Purpose Driven Life:

"In suggesting that God does not demand perfection, Warren has lowered the divine standards of God’s law, yet he nevertheless insists on perfect honesty! Is this somehow more attainable, than perfect obedience, in Warren’s estimation? It would seem so: “He knows you are incapable of being perfect or sinless…What God looks at is the attitude of your heart.” The heart? The very thing Scripture describes as being “deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked” (Jer. 17:9)? Out of the heart “proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies” (Matt. 15:19). Our actions merely reveal what is already in our hearts, yet Warren asserts “If perfection was a requirement for friendship with God, we would never be able to be his friends.”

This, of course, is the point! Sinners can’t be friends with God; not apart from Christ. Jesus alone lived the perfect life which sinful mankind could never live, died to take upon Himself the penalty we all so richly deserve, and rose again to justify sinners. No, to neuter the law, as Warren does, actually neuters the work of Christ. For this reason, Walther writes: “Now, inasmuch as the Lord had to fulfill every law and every commandment in our stead, it is shocking in any man, poor, sinful worm that he is, to want to dispense with a single law of God and to treat it as a matter of no importance.” To minimize any of the law’s demands minimizes what Christ has done for us in keeping the law for us, and no Christian, Lutheran or otherwise, should tolerate such irreverence." (Steve Parks, Cr. Rvw of TPDL)

So to suggest that Free Will, is a state of neutrality, where man has an equal choice of good from evil is absurd. If this were true, then why are even regenerated Christians continually inclined to sin?

Also I ask you, what pleases God? Is it our futile attempts at obedience or offering sacrifices? Psalm 51 reveals this,

16
"For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."

So now we are closer to what pleases God. But no one is even contrite or repentant enough! No one is as sorrowful as one should be. Identifying the Scriptural fact, that no one is capable of proper obedience and holy sacrifices (Romans 3:10-18) nor even a purely contrite heart, we must admit, that if perfect obedience and sacrifices are what pleases God, we are all in a bit of hot water!

Christ Offers Himself to God for the Atonement of our sins.( DIENEKES )

I am in full assent with this statement.

Fortunately, as you correctly said, God describes what pleases Him. Christ. It is the perfect obedience and sacrifice of Christ that atones for our sin. Vicariously, He atones for the sin of the world and for each of us. Vicarious Atonement. (See my signature below)

...(we hitch a ride with Him, in His offering, as we offer our living bodies to God; Rom.12;1.)...as if getting into His vehicle, which He drives to Heaven (perpetually, once & for all, one time for all time for all people.)

Please clarify what you mean.

much like GETTING ON AN ELEVATOR. you put your body on the elevator,
the elevetor carries you up to the top floor and there you get to SEE your place (Eph. 2:6)

I would disagree with who puts our bodies in the elevator....what place? Heaven?

...this is not at all self glorifying. it is humbling to ride with him, in Him in HIS OFFERING........my inarticulate words cannot even begin to explain what happens when one offers his own living body to God at the Altar, during the Mass.

(underline mine for emphasis)

Are the underlined words not self-glorifying?

but if you ever see before Consecration; They pour wine into a Chalice"THE WORD BECAME FLESH...a drop of water is dropped (into the wine which is to become His Blood) in the Chalice...He took on our humanity...(that drop of water is to become me), a partaker of His Divine Nature.

While I do not deny the true Physical Presence of Christ in and under the earthly elements of bread and wine....His body and blood, given and shed for the remission of sins, I do not understand the 'drop of water becomes us' part. Is this Scriptural?

THIS IS A SIGN FROM GOD; YOU & I SURRENDER OUR SOUL AND OUR HUMANITY, INTO CHRIST'S BODY & BLOOD, SOUL & DIVINITY
Only God Reveals as we OBEY. that is where SOLA FIDE can can lead you
behind the veil....We believe that (without "sole" and "alone")....+ God entrusts to The Church; Apostolic Authority, Sacred Tradition, The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and The Sacrifice of Thanksgiving.

Obedience is not a prerequisite for revelation. Think about this.

I would claim exactly the opposite. Vowing strict obedience to fallible man (Pope, Bishops, Cardinals, Priests, Church Tradition), undeniably veils one from the clear and untainted truth that lies in Scripture. This is why Sola Scriptura must be. Nothing can exist on the same plane as Holy Scripture. For what do we have that is as clear and as trustworthy than the very word of God?

Ephesians 2:8-9 seems to directly contradict what you assert,

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

If you would like to interject obedience (works) into salvation, then Paul has some words for you,

Galatians 5

1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.
9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.


Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Change of the preist hood, Where juses is the high preist in the order of Malkesidik [sp] a order that is eternal. He for fullied the 1 st not took it away. Veil= flesh interesting take on the temple veil that was rent in 2.

This is not the temple veil. Heb. 10:20 says "The new living path he opened for us through the veil (the "veil" meaning his flesh).


[QUOTE = BBAS64] You can not offer his flesh: [/QUOTE]

He commanded us; Mt. 26:26-29 & Lk. 22:19,20 & Mal.1:11 & Ps. 116:12
He offers His own Flesh ,Blood, Soul, and Divinity at every Mass Through the Apostolic Authority Given to the Priest and the priestly people.
Rev. 11:1 & Heb. 13:10

All sacrifices to God must be pure with out spot, I do not see one as more pure than the other Pure is Pure.

Mal.1:11...and everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the Lord of Hosts.
(at EVERY MASS)

.......Unless you are talking about soap!

I am talking about THE FLESH AND BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT;
Mt. 26:26-29 and 1 Peter 2:24..."in His own Body...(his Flesh)
Heb. 9:29..."thinks THE COVENANT BLOOD....... to be ordinary,........"

Peace to u,Bill

and may you enter into God's Rest,
Heb.4:11
Carlos

 

[Rising_Suns]

I don't know if it has been discussed yet, but could someone please tell me where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the sole and exclusive authority of God's word?

 

[Carlos Vigil]

I don't know if it has been discussed yet, but could someone please tell me where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the sole and exclusive authority of God's word?

Thanks, Rising_Suns,
You have just asked the second most important question of (5) centuries.
I have offered all my relatives a $99.98 reward if any one of them can find THAT VERSE....as well as the verse that says that we are justified by Faith Alone. So far no one has found either of those verses.
although there have been many submitted that ALMOST seem to suggest or imply the origin on which both of those teachings are founded.

but I did run across a written "Sola Fide" that was used in Worship prior to 1274 a.d.

Good Luck, Carlos

 

[BBAS 64]

Thanks, Rising_Suns,
You have just asked the second most important question of (5) centuries.
I have offered all my relatives a $99.98 reward if any one of them can find THAT VERSE....as well as the verse that says that we are justified by Faith Alone. So far no one has found either of those verses.
although there have been many submitted that ALMOST seem to suggest or imply the origin on which both of those teachings are founded.

but I did run across a written "Sola Fide" that was used in Worship prior to 1274 a.d.

Good Luck, Carlos

Good Day, Carlos

Where is my Money, I have given you 2 bibles with in the historic record of the Faith that in Romans used Faith Alone in the orginal language, have you verified them?

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Carlos and Rising _Son

I do belive there is an open invite to Debate Sola Scriptura with Matt in the formal debate section. The op here is about the verse in used by the poster with reguards to the meaning of that verse. I t has been posted by a few here that the Grammer used presents a view that this verse does not exclude Sola Scriptura nor can it.

Carlos has maintained in this thread that some "form" of worship is Historical there fore some what authoritative. While he agrees on the Historic foundations the the Scripture is known to men and the standards used to come to the conclusion of what Scripture is. He has failed IMO to put his assertion to the same standard used to derive the Scripture, he has said that there is some package deal of 2 things that are identified seperately. Scripture is based in history the other part of his "package" is subjective and lacks consistant historical eveidance.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[A. believer]

I don't know if it has been discussed yet, but could someone please tell me where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the sole and exclusive authority of God's word?

That's like me asking you, can you tell me where it says that we're supposed to worship Mary? I always wonder why you guys expect us to defend propositions we're not making?

 

[ChiRho]

That's like me asking you, can you tell me where it says that we're supposed to worship Mary? I always wonder why you guys expect us to defend propositions we're not making?

HaHaHa!!

 

[A. believer]

Thanks, Rising_Suns,
You have just asked the second most important question of (5) centuries.
I have offered all my relatives a $99.98 reward if any one of them can find THAT VERSE....as well as the verse that says that we are justified by Faith Alone. So far no one has found either of those verses.
although there have been many submitted that ALMOST seem to suggest or imply the origin on which both of those teachings are founded.

but I did run across a written "Sola Fide" that was used in Worship prior to 1274 a.d.

Good Luck, Carlos

Hi Carlos,

Are you familiar with the concept of necessary inference?

 

[ChiRho]

Are you familiar with the concept of necessary inference?

Ooh! Ooh! I am! I am!

Does it mean that from the following verses (and many more), that we can come to only one undeniable conclusion?


Ephesians

8 For (21) by grace you have been saved (22) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (23) the gift of God;
9 (24) not as a result of works, so that (25) no one may boast.


Galatians

1 (1) It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore (2) keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a (3) yoke of slavery.
2 Behold I, (4) Paul, say to you that if you receive (5) circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I (6) testify again to every man who receives (7) circumcision, that he is under obligation to (8) keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have (9) fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are (10) waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in (11) Christ Jesus (12) neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but (13) faith working through love.
7 You were (14) running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8 This persuasion did not come from (15) Him who calls you.
9 (16) A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
10 (17) I have confidence in you in the Lord that you (18) will adopt no other view; but the one who is (19) disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still (20) persecuted? Then (21) the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12 I wish that (22) those who are troubling you would even (23) mutilate themselves.
Romans

28 For (46) we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Sola Fide!

 

[A. believer]

Ooh! Ooh! I am! I am!

Does it mean that from the following verses (and many more), that we can come to only one undeniable conclusion?

Precisely!

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Well, what we prefer...sometimes is not what actually is.

I KNOW That Jesus is Gentle and Humble of Heart, more clearly than I know myself....When I first met Him, that is how He revealed Himself to me.

The Ten Commandments
Which one of these was intended as a suggestion? Has God not been clear in expressing His dissatisfaction with anything but perfect fulfillment? Is this not what God demands of us? Christ clarifies and sums up the Law perfectly, as we are to understand fully, that God does indeed, demand absolute perfection.

but, can He receive absolute perfection from any, other than His only begotten son ?.......I still do not see God DEMANDING what He DESERVES from us..........HE DESERVES better from us but He knows we are but flesh. He knows that if He can PUT HIS SPIRIT IN US ...He might get some yield in return., How many do you know who ASK GOD FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT?
as in Lk.11:13 & Mt.3:11 ???

Which of us accomplishes this?

Out of your thankful heart comes Praise, Adoration, Obedience, Worship, endurance as free offerings. I could not make such a statement. What lies in my heart is the very source of rebellion and sin.

Anyone who is FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT can do this because you have the WILL and the FREEDOM........for instance; WHY do you even bother to communicate with me, a gusano, unless the Holy Spirit is DRAWING us into a deeper fellowship IN HIM and with each other?

The more you yield to the LEADING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, the more of what God expects from us, you and I will accomplish.

The heart? The very thing Scripture describes as being “deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked” (Jer. 17:9)? Out of the heart “proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies” (Matt. 15:19).

That is the VERY REASON why we NEED to get FILLED with the PARACLETE!!!!!
and that is the VERY REASON why we NEED to OFFER our living bodies as in Rom. 12:1
if we don't do this , we are doomed to ALWAYS be trying to do God's work WITHOUT God's POWER....(feeling the demand, instead of the PROMPTING)

I ask you, what pleases God? Is it our futile attempts at obedience or offering sacrifices?

our "yes", our "Willing" (even though weak, but in faith)..... attempts at obedience and offerings are a delight to Him .....no different than ENCOURAGING a 9 month old baby to take (1) step. remember; "what is sown in weakness shall be raised in POWER! "

Psalm 51 reveals this,
16 "For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with ( burnt offering. )
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."

a burnt offering does not turn God on....but a LIVING SACRIFICE DOES.
Rom. 12:1

So now we are closer to what pleases God. But no one is even contrite or repentant enough! No one is as sorrowful as one should be. Identifying the Scriptural fact, that no one is capable of proper obedience and holy sacrifices (Romans 3:10-18) nor even a purely contrite heart, we must admit, that ( if perfect obedience and sacrifices ) are what pleases God, we are all in a bit of hot water!

Just THINK and SAY this; "CHRIST AND I ARE AN OVERWHELMING AND IMMENSE MAJORITY" (the tongue sets the COURSE of our life from birth.)

Remember, we are HITCH-HIKING (1)in Christs vehicle ;!Ptr. 1:3-5.
(2) in His person; Body, Blood, Soul, and Divine Nature.
(3) in Obedience; Mt. 7:21,24
like in NOAH'S ARK (1Ptr. 3:20,21)...When you approach the Gates of Heaven you will be welcome, not because you know so much scripture,but because you are entering on the shoulders of A GIANT.... and whatever the Giant brings in, IS IN!

MAT. 11:28; YOKE; "Take My YOKE upon you......."His Yoke for us is
THE NEW COVENANT, with THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT, (which replaces the law of sin and death)
Rom. 8:2

I am in full assent with this statement.( "CHRIST OFFERS HIMSELF FOR THE ATONEMENT OF OUR SINS...DIENEKES".)

Fortunately, as you correctly said, God describes what pleases Him. Christ. It is the perfect obedience and sacrifice of Christ that atones for our sin. Vicariously, He atones for the sin of the world and for each of us. Vicarious Atonement. (See my signature below)

by "vicarious" I hope you mean He was crushed FOR OUR sins. and does still.
His perpetual OFFERING.( VICARIOUS; taking the place of another person.) also VICAR; " I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. "

"VICARIOUS ATONEMENT"; =Mediator of a New Covenant. Heb.7:12,/12:24.
=Perpetual; Heb. 7:27,/ 9:27 =(THE MASS )
even you and I are called to walk in this world (IN PLACE OF) CHRIST.

Please clarify what you mean.

("HITCH A RIDE") At Mass we are commanded to "LIFT UP OUR HEARTS."
and we say;"we lift them up to the Lord" IF we WILL IT and BELIEVE it, God honors it. When you GIVE your heart, your body follows where your heart is taken to.(doesn't it)
when YOU put your body in a car (or elevator) your heart,body,soul,& spirit (YOU) go where the vehicle takes you,(do you not?)
Since Christ is the Vehicle, the Driver, and the Destination!, then you and I can say"...After all, (I )have died! and (my)NEW LIFE IS HIDDEN now with CHRIST in GOD." ( Col. 3:3 ) your PLACE in HEAVEN (Eph.2:6) because you offered your body on earth. (AT THE ALTAR)

I would disagree with who puts our bodies in the elevator....what place? Heaven?

WILL; God works both the will and the Performance...but He WILL NOT do it without our co-operation... since he did not create us as robots.

Rom. 12:2 "I beg you through the Mercy of God to OFFER YOUR BODIES...."
SO... YOU offer your body...and, guess what??? What ever gift you put on the ALTAR, HE makes it HOLY!!! ( Mt. 23:19

(underline mine for emphasis)
Are the underlined words not self-glorifying?

NO., Rom. 12:1)...any True Glorifying that is done, is done By Christ ...
and He does want to Share His Glory with us (wretched, relinquished owners of our own bodies.) there is no place for boasting or self glorifying at HIS ALTAR!...nor in his Crucifiction, nor in His Death, nor in His Resurrection.

While I do not deny the true Physical Presence of Christ in and under the earthly elements of bread and wine....His body and blood, given and shed for the remission of sins, I do not understand the 'drop of water becomes us' part. Is this Scriptural?

(A) Glory,Glory, Glory!
(B)"drop of water"= you & I. (our humanity) surrendered INTO
"CUP OF WINE"= Christ as You would know him when he asked..."Whom do YOU say that I AM?"
this mixture (union) takes place as OUR OFFERING, mixed into HIS OFFERING which Christ in Heaven CONSECRATES through The Priest's offering of The Prayer of Consecration , Commanded by Christ. THIS IS OBEDIENCE empowered by FAITH........Scriptural?..."whoever loses his life for my sake will find it...""what is sown in weakness, shall be raised in power."
"I solemnly assure you, unless the grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat."
......"Now about these enemies of mine, who DO NOT WANT ME TO BE KING, bring them in and slay them in my presence,"
" ...I will not drink of THIS FRUIT of the vine from now until the day when I drink it new WITH YOU in My Father's reign."
When WE drink the cup (water + Wine) (He changed into His Blood.) He DRINKS IT WITH US!!! now that He Reigns as King, and we OBEY out of Love and Loyalty.

Obedience is not a prerequisite for revelation. Think about this.

"whoever does not accept the Kingdom of God as a child will not enter it."

"Father, Lord of heaven and earth, to you I offer praise; for what you have hidden from the learned and the clever you have revealed to the merest of children." ...&
Acts 5:32".The Holy Spirit is given to those who OBEY HIM"
Without The Holy Spirit no one will understand any TRUTH (revelation) from God. the best that can be done is form a multitude of human opinions.

I would claim exactly the opposite. Vowing strict obedience to fallible man (Pope, Bishops, Cardinals, Priests, Church Tradition), undeniably veils one from the clear and untainted truth that lies in Scripture. This is why Sola Scriptura must be. Nothing can exist on the same plane as Holy Scripture. For what do we have that is as clear and as trustworthy than the very word of God?

To claim the opposite of obedience (to what Christ has commanded) is rebellion, which places one "under that spirit who is even now at work among the rebellious..."Eph. 2:2...don't forget; Jesus created the Church, the Church created the Scripture, The Scripture HELPS US believe so Christ can create us. (all through the Holy Spirit.)

Ephesians 2:8-9 seems to directly contradict what you assert,

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, ( it is the gift of God; )
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It is Grace (The Gift of the Holy Spirit ) that draws, leads us to DO THE WORKS OF GOD in Eph. 2:10 and John 6:27,28,& 29 with thankful hearts, Praise, Adoration, Worship, Joy, and AWE!

If you would like to interject obedience (works into salvation, ) then Paul has some words for you,

Galatians 5
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to ( a yoke of slavery. )
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that ( if you receive circumcision, ) Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I testify again to every man who ( receives circumcision, ) that he is under obligation to ( keep the whole Law. )
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are ( seeking to be justified by law; ) you have fallen from grace.
5 For we (through the Spirit, by faith, )are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but (faith working through love).
7 You were running well; ( who hindered you from obeying the truth? )
8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.
9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but ( the one who is disturbing you ) will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

Verses; (1) "yoke of slavery"=NO / "Law of the Spirit" Rom. 8:2 =YES
(2)"receive circumcision" = NO / "Receiving Baptism" Rom. 6:3 = YES
(3) "obligation to keep the whole law" my local evangelical brothers here are taught that Catholics "keep the whole law" are YOU taught that???
because "The law of the Spirit, the Spirit of Life in Christ , has FREED US from the law of sin and death."(Rom. 8:2...We live by THE NEW COVENANT.
The LAW OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.; (1Cor 2:9-16)
(4)...Contrary to popular evangelical belief, we are not NOT seeking to be justified by the (OLD)law... even though we seem too strict or legalistic, or ritualistic or lukewarm, whatever!..... we are SINNERS , just like you, we just are tapped into the FOUNTAIN OF ALL HOLINESS, to the BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT, distrubuted for the FORGIVENESS OF SINS, incorporated into ONE BODY because we eat HIS ONE BREAD that comes down from Heaven.
but aside from that , we put on our shoes one at a time ,,,Just like you.

Pax Christi,
ChiRho

Rom.8:2...How about you and I agree to PERSUE The Law of the Spirit , &
Be CLOTHED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH....and yield to that Power to lead us out of the bondage of the law of sin & death?
God has revealed this Wisdom to us THROUGH THE SPIRIT.....

A repairer of the breach,
Carlos

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos

Where is my Money, I have given you 2 bibles with in the historic record of the Faith that in Romans used Faith Alone in the orginal language, have you verified them?

Bill

No , I have not verified them, I have not been to the library yet.
from the dates you gave me they appear to have been written around the time of the reformation, were they not?

The original BIBLE was officially decided by the Council of Hippo, 393 a.d.
and Carthage, 397 a.d. All translations officially recognized by the Church
( even as late as the original King James Bible ) in other words; what the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Catholic Church acknowledges as a VALID translation of the Bible, I will also acknowledge.

I will not consider as "OFFICIAL" any Bibles such as Jehovah Witnesses, Chick Publications, nor any lunatic, woodtic, heretic, politic, fly-by-night, start my own church, start my own bible, etc...not nostradomus, nor a second cousin of Isaiah, nor one by Jonah's hair stylist. not even a bible by ONE OF JESUS' BROTHERS.

Not because I'm cheap but
because I Love THE TRUTH
Carlos

 

[BBAS 64]

No , I have not verified them, I have not been to the library yet.
from the dates you gave me they appear to have been written around the time of the reformation, were they not?

Good Day, Carlos

I will have to go back and check the dates.

The original BIBLE was officially decided by the Council of Hippo, 393 a.d.
and Carthage, 397 a.d. All translations officially recognized by the Church
( even as late as the original King James Bible ) in other words; what the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Catholic Church acknowledges as a VALID translation of the Bible, I will also acknowledge.

I understand your assertion here, Even though we agreed in this thread that the Scriptures where based on an historical view of many documents out side of what the scripture them selves contain. What did the ECF before the local council in 397 do with reguards to Scripture?

I will not consider as "OFFICIAL" any Bibles such as Jehovah Witnesses, Chick Publications, nor any lunatic, woodtic, heretic, politic, fly-by-night, start my own church, start my own bible, etc...not nostradomus, nor a second cousin of Isaiah, nor one by Jonah's hair stylist. not even a bible by ONE OF JESUS' BROTHERS.

Not because I'm cheap but
because I Love THE TRUTH
Carlos

Kind of reminds me of a disscusion between a Roman Catholic and a morman. My guy is better than yours, my extra biblical sources are more historical than yours are. " no there not, Yes they are because my guys say so" Circular arguments are fun to observe where they be from Catholics, mormans, JW, or even David Koresh types.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[ChiRho]

"Rom.8:2...How about you and I agree to PERSUE The Law of the Spirit , &
Be CLOTHED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH....and yield to that Power to lead us out of the bondage of the law of sin & death?
God has revealed this Wisdom to us THROUGH THE SPIRIT....."

Have a great weekend Carlos.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos and Rising _Son

I do belive there is an open invite to Debate Sola Scriptura with Matt in the formal debate section. The op here is about the verse in used by the poster with reguards to the meaning of that verse. I t has been posted by a few here that the Grammer used presents a view that this verse does not exclude Sola Scriptura nor can it.

Carlos has maintained in this thread that some "form" of worship is Historical there fore some what authoritative. While he agrees on the Historic foundations the the Scripture is known to men and the standards used to come to the conclusion of what Scripture is. He has failed IMO to put his assertion to the same standard used to derive the Scripture, he has said that there is some package deal of 2 things that are identified seperately. Scripture is based in history the other part of his "package" is subjective and lacks consistant historical eveidance.

Peace to u,

Bill

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying there BBAS64,
If you are saying THERE IS historical evidence of how scripture was determined and the standard (or canon) by which it was decided.
BUT
The other part of the package (TRADITION ) what the present Church INHERITED ...A certain "Form of Worship" ( THE MASS ) , ( LITURGY )

is subjective and lacks historical evidence??? (is this what you are saying?)


If I put on my Protestant sun glasses I can see that M.Luther threw away
All tradition , the good with the bad.... He Threw away The MASS...He threw away the PRIESTHOOD, THE POPE, THE BISHOPS the entire Heirarchy, the Apostolic Authority Given By Christ to the Apostles AND their successors.
Threw away THE ALTAR

All he kept was The Bible alone, and Faith alone.(Lutherans & Anglicans kept
the altars but ADDED the word "SYMBOLICALLY"
Historical evidence reveals that ( compared to an Easter egg ) He (or they,
the reformers ) threw away the EGG but held on to the egg SHELL.
now it is taught that this is all one needs.
the rest has been "ADDED BY MAN"

If I put on my Catholic sun glasses , I can see that the egg-shell is good
and so is the rest of the egg....INSIDE the egg is The New Covenant IN MY BLOOD
God is interested in NEW COVENANT KEEPERS.
He is interested in Those who Worship AT THE ALTAR...
He is Pleading "by the Mercy of God" for us to OFFER OUR LIVING BODIES
He is offering us (who are w/o wheels) a free ride to Glory in a vehicle more eloquent than a 747, but we say"I already have a symbol(a print) of a 747, plus my belief in my symbol."

"How often I have wanted to gather you as a mother hen gathers her baby chicks under her wing, BUT YOU WOULD NOT LET ME!"

What 's a mother hen to do?
Carlos

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos

What did the ECF before the local council in 397 do with reguards to Scripture?

Hi BBAS64
They (the Apostles, and their successors)collected what was written, they discerned what they believed was inlpired by thr Holy Spirit, consistent with what Jesus taught them, they held and taught what was agreed upon as TRUE to the Teaching of Christ. until the Bible was finalized.
what was finalized is still i n the Catholic Bible. what was not included in the Bible is still available in the archives of the Vatican.

Kind of reminds me of a disscusion between a Roman Catholic and a morman. My guy is better than yours, my extra biblical sources are more historical than yours are. " no there not, Yes they are because my guys say so" Circular arguments are fun to observe where they be from Catholics, mormans, JW, or even David Koresh types.

Peace to u,

Bill

Even football fans, or baseball fans...
What is the name of the Church Where you attend or Baptized into?

I attend at The curch of the uncurcumcised of heart and ear who always oppost the Holy Spirit




Carlos