Does this verse disprove Sola Scriptura?

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos I asked:

[/i]

You responed with a few question that are removed from the context of scripture and there fore are lacking the full understanding or implications of the hisorical conditions that that is nessary for understanding.

OK, I'm sorry
I overloaded the screen w/ too much"tradition" stuff, I apologize.
I meant to say that there are things in scripture that are not clearly explaned in scripture, one has to go to the teaching of the Apostles.(DIDACHE) which is carefully preserved by the Church , the Pillar and mainstay of Truth.

Canot not find "Liturgy of The Lord" in english version of the Scripture any where, missing from any Greek translation I can find please cite ?

Carlos, I will ask again:

So, you have asserted that this is part of a "package" and we have come to a standard by wich we have arrived to that fact. What is the other part of this "package"?


Peace to u,

Bill

(A)
The Liturgy of the Lord(also called "service", "worship") (LEITOURGIA)
I read it as is in THE NEW AMERICAN BIBLE
and THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT;Greek to King James English


(B)
The Liturgy(the Mass), The Altar, The Priesthood of Christ among the Priests.
The Priesthood of Christ among the "priestly people"
the order that ALL PRIESTS & priestly PEOPLE must have something to offer.
The Altar, and everything necessary for The Sacrifice (offering)


The Peace of Christ to You,
Carlos

 

[Carlos Vigil]

The Didache is written tradition, not oral tradition.

I don't see any evidence to point you to that conclusion, but even so, what is your point?


I agree. That is not a problem for Lutherans.

my point is;
TRADITION=
tra.......+.......dict.......+.......tion
through...+...say ...ing, = oral

TRANSCRIPTION+
tran....+....scrip....+....tion
through...+...write...ing = written

The "MESSAGE " was at first SPOKEN (only), later on
The "MESSAGE" was WRITTEN in addition to SPOKEN...The Apostles DID NOT
TOSS away SPEAKING because they now had WRITTEN,did they?

so, you are right, today we have ORAL and WRITTEN....do you agree?

in search for agreement
Carlos

 

[FreeinChrist]

(A)
The Liturgy of the Lord(also called "service", "worship") (LEITOURGIA)
I read it as is in THE NEW AMERICAN BIBLE
and THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT;Greek to King James English

I went to an online site for the New American Bible and Acts 13:2 reads like this:

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

The site is this one:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PY7.HTM

It didn't read:
......."On one occasion while they were engaged in The Liturgy of The Lord and were fasting, The Holy Spirit spoke to them:"Set apart Barnabas and Saul for me to do the work which I have called them.""

 

[BBAS 64]

OK, I'm sorry
I overloaded the screen w/ too much"tradition" stuff, I apologize.
I meant to say that there are things in scripture that are not clearly explaned in scripture, one has to go to the teaching of the Apostles.(DIDACHE) which is carefully preserved by the Church , the Pillar and mainstay of Truth.


(A)
The Liturgy of the Lord(also called "service", "worship") (LEITOURGIA)
I read it as is in THE NEW AMERICAN BIBLE
and THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT;Greek to King James English


(B)
The Liturgy(the Mass), The Altar, The Priesthood of Christ among the Priests.
The Priesthood of Christ among the "priestly people"
the order that ALL PRIESTS & priestly PEOPLE must have something to offer.
The Altar, and everything necessary for The Sacrifice (offering)


The Peace of Christ to You,
Carlos

Good Day, Carlos

Not a problem , things can get some what confusing.

I wiil have to take some time and re read the didache. Let my ask you 1 question in reguards to this document do you beleive in the pre-trib Rapture of the church as taught with in the Didache?

leitourgeō

li-toorg-eh'-o

From G3011; to be a public servant, that is, (by analogy) to perform religious or charitable functions (worship, obey, relieve): - minister.

Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Act 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

Act 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

Act 13:5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.

Act 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:

Act 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

Act 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.


Carlos is this a verb or a noun in the GREEK? Would you please present the translation " Liturgy" you wish to use in noun form and verb form in a complete sentence?

" The Liturgy of the Lord " you will also take not that the Part. is the Greek is "to".

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Carlos Vigil]

What Bible are you using? Acts 13:2 says this:
Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. KJV

Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." RVS

Did you add "Liturgy of the Lord"?


In my NEW AMERICAN BIBLE it reads "LITURGY".
in my Greek NT it reads "LEITOURGIA" in Greek but when it is
translated into KJ english it says "ministering"

no I did not add the word "LITURGY".

What I would like to know is; What is your Worship, Service , Ministering, Liturgy, or "Church Service" proceedure?
is it something you inherited? from whom?...does it resemble anything like what the apostles did when they "were ministering to The Lord?"

see I think we have opened up a can of worms.......or is it a CAN OF GLORY?

Carlos

 

[Carlos Vigil]

I went to an online site for the New American Bible and Acts 13:2 reads like this:

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

The site is this one:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PY7.HTM

It didn't read:
......."On one occasion while they were engaged in The Liturgy of The Lord and were fasting, The Holy Spirit spoke to them:"Set apart Barnabas and Saul for me to do the work which I have called them.""

Well,FreeinChrist,
It looks like you have won the battle!.....while I've been with my nose into my 1970 version of the New American, they have come out with NEW bibles and they CHANGED from "Liturgy" to "Worship" (woe is me!!!)

I am like those Japanese soldiers who were still fighting long after Japan had surrendered at the end of WW II.

Looks like the whole Catholic Church has gone over to Protestantism and I am the only dufus still in my foxhole, still firing "LITURGY" rounds while ...
awwwww, forget it.

tell me, if you were in my shoes, would you throw this 1970 bible away ?
....and buy one from the Jehovah's witnesses?

Thanks, I enjoy the proverb; "IRON SHARPENS IRON"
Carlos

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos

Not a problem , things can get some what confusing.

I wiil have to take some time and re read the didache. Let my ask you 1 question in reguards to this document do you beleive in the pre-trib Rapture of the church as taught with in the Didache?

I have not yet read the Didache, only when someone quotes it. I hope to asap.
I was not aware that the Didache taught taught the rapture.????
I am interested in what the Didache has to say, concerning swept away,
or the rapture as they say,...ricochet!

after studying the word "RAPTURE" thru etymology, I have discovered a different view of what it could be.

so I have come to a "possibility"of another meaning;, how about
"MID-RAPTURE TRIBULATION?".......in other words, the TRIBULATION will come smack-dab in the MIDDLE of the Rapture., or
the RAPTURE itself will be the TRIBULATION....does that sound far fetched?

I think about it alot, this is the first time anybody has asked me what I believe about "The rapture"

are you sorry you asked?...I hope not.
Your friend in Christ
Carlos

leitourgeo¯

[/size]li-toorg-eh'-o

From G3011; to be a public servant, that is, (by analogy) to perform religious or charitable functions (worship, obey, relieve): - minister.

[/size]
Carlos is this a verb or a noun in the GREEK? Would you please present the translation " Liturgy" you wish to use in noun form and verb form in a complete sentence?[/QUOTE




"LETS GO UP AND CELEBRATE THE LITURGY." (verb)...(DO this in remembrance of Me.)
( lets go scuba diving. )

DURING THE LITURGY I visualized a giant white-hot welding torch coming down from, and at the same time, going up to the Throne of God . (noun)

( I guess its like BASEBALL; do you go TO A BASEBALL GAME, or do you PLAY baseball?)

A Liturgist is one who studies and does.
the Liturgy is what the People DO (as commanded by God;Psalm 19:8-10)

P/S, "worship" translates into "PROSKUNEO"

personally, I would much rather DO LITURGY than discuss it.
so if you want to discuss "Rapture", lets do it.

curious
Carlos

 

[BBAS 64]

I have not yet read the Didache, only when someone quotes it. I hope to asap.
I was not aware that the Didache taught taught the rapture.????
I am interested in what the Didache has to say, concerning swept away,
or the rapture as they say,...ricochet!

after studying the word "RAPTURE" thru etymology, I have discovered a different view of what it could be.

so I have come to a "possibility"of another meaning;, how about
"MID-RAPTURE TRIBULATION?".......in other words, the TRIBULATION will come smack-dab in the MIDDLE of the Rapture., or
the RAPTURE itself will be the TRIBULATION....does that sound far fetched?

I think about it alot, this is the first time anybody has asked me what I believe about "The rapture"

are you sorry you asked?...I hope not.
Your friend in Christ
Carlos?

Good Day, Carlos

I am some what surprized here that in this thread here you in you disscusions with Lotar you point to the Didache as being Tradition with out reading it all the way throuh. As you read though it , ask your self is all that is presented here clearly presented in the Scripture, could it be that the writers of this document used as thier premis the historical Scriptures of the times.

No , I am not sorry at all. Your use of the etymology in the use of the word rapture is to be commened and I look forward to reading your work. The question that you raise about the use of a quailfied use of "rapture" be it "Mid-Pre", has very little relative to the etymology of the word, with in the time of it's useage.

leitourgeo¯

li-toorg-eh'-o

From G3011; to be a public servant, that is, (by analogy) to perform religious or charitable functions (worship, obey, relieve): - minister.

[/size]
Carlos is this a verb or a noun in the GREEK? Would you please present the translation " Liturgy" you wish to use in noun form and verb form in a complete sentence?

"LETS GO UP AND CELEBRATE THE LITURGY." (verb)...(DO this in remembrance of Me.)
( lets go scuba diving. )?

Carlos, the verb here is what we do when we go up. Celebrate.

DURING THE LITURGY I visualized a giant white-hot welding torch coming down from, and at the same time, going up to the Throne of God . (noun)

Carlos, "During the " means someting is happening "going on" Verb

( I guess its like BASEBALL; do you go TO A BASEBALL GAME, or do you PLAY baseball?))

Carlos, the understanding here is predicated on one's pov or position.

A Liturgist is one who studies and does.
the Liturgy is what the People DO (as commanded by God;Psalm 19:8-10))

Kind of lost me here.

P/S, "worship" translates into "PROSKUNEO"

personally, I would much rather DO LITURGY than discuss it.
so if you want to discuss "Rapture", lets do it.

curious
Carlos

"PROSKUNEO" = worship, Please cite with in scripture and context? I have provided the Greek with in the context that you drew Liturgy, and have shown that translation to be incorrect. I am still trying to understand Liturgy and your use of it. Carlos it is hard to do some thing when you do not know what you do never mind why you would do that thing.

Rapture would be another thread I am sure if you search on that you will find much here at CF. Let me know how it goes in your reading.


For His Glory Alone!

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Carlos,

I have done some basic etymology on the word Liturgy, seems there is a sematic change with in the realm of the RC useage. I will try to try down dates in which this change occoured. One thing seems clear the useage is allways a NOUN, not a verb even with in the change of usage.

Bill

 

[FreeinChrist]

Well,FreeinChrist,
It looks like you have won the battle!.....while I've been with my nose into my 1970 version of the New American, they have come out with NEW bibles and they CHANGED from "Liturgy" to "Worship" (woe is me!!!)

I am like those Japanese soldiers who were still fighting long after Japan had surrendered at the end of WW II.

Looks like the whole Catholic Church has gone over to Protestantism and I am the only dufus still in my foxhole, still firing "LITURGY" rounds while ...
awwwww, forget it.

tell me, if you were in my shoes, would you throw this 1970 bible away ?
....and buy one from the Jehovah's witnesses?

Thanks, I enjoy the proverb; "IRON SHARPENS IRON"
Carlos

Yes, I would not use the 1970 New American Bible. I would go back to a Bible that was translated more accurately from the earliest manuscripts. The 1970 NAB apparently adds terms to fit a particular denomination. I think they were wise to go back and fix that particular problem.

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Good Day, Carlos

I am some what surprized here that in this thread here you in you disscusions with Lotar you point to the Didache as being Tradition with out reading it all the way throuh. As you read though it , ask your self is all that is presented here clearly presented in the Scripture, could it be that the writers of this document used as thier premis the historical Scriptures of the times.


"PROSKUNEO" = worship, Please cite with in scripture and context?

I am still trying to understand Liturgy and your use of it. Carlos it is hard to do some thing when you do not know what you do never mind why you would do that thing.


Bill

I don't feel obligated to read all the way thru it, I trust the Apostolic Authority in the Church. if I want to know any details I ask a priest and He points me to it. I have seen enough to conclude that the Didache is the mother of all NT scripture.

Jn. 4:20-24=PROSKUNEO 4352 ; to prostrate oneself in homage, do reverence, adore, worship.

I sympathize with you in trying to understand Liturgy. If you trust the authority of the presenter, you are using FAITH. if you trust only your own understanding, you are relying on KNOWLEDGE.( FAITH surpasses knowledge )and aren't we cautioned not to rely on our own understanding?

I suggest you go and observe a few liturgies, just listen to what is spoken and done by the priest and people and see if that accelerates your understanding.

I have been doing LEITOURGEO for many years and today I am amazed that Isaiah 60:1-5 comes alive during Liturgy.

Christ in you, your HOPE of Glory
Carlos

 

[FreeinChrist]

I don't feel obligated to read all the way thru it, I trust the Apostolic Authority in the Church. if I want to know any details I ask a priest and He points me to it. I have seen enough to conclude that the Didache is the mother of all NT scripture.

"Mother of all NT scripture" - you are kidding us, right?

It was written about 80-110 A.D. , well after all the books of the NT, except Revelation, possibly.

And the Didache is NOT scripture.

 

[BBAS 64]

I don't feel obligated to read all the way thru it, I trust the Apostolic Authority in the Church. if I want to know any details I ask a priest and He points me to it. I have seen enough to conclude that the Didache is the mother of all NT scripture.

Good Day, Carlos

Seems some times here we are going around in a circle. I did not mean to say you are obligated to read the didache. You are in fact obligated to read the scripture.

Study to show thy self approved. " study" in the verb form of the Greek as a command. You trust, that is your choice wheter it is wise choice or not is subjective. Mother please eloborate?

Here is a part of the didache:

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Would you then cosder your self to be a pre trib "rapturist."

Jn. 4:20-24=PROSKUNEO 4352 ; to prostrate oneself in homage, do reverence, adore, worship.

I sympathize with you in trying to understand Liturgy. If you trust the authority of the presenter, you are using FAITH. if you trust only your own understanding, you are relying on KNOWLEDGE.( FAITH surpasses knowledge )and aren't we cautioned not to rely on our own understanding?

I suggest you go and observe a few liturgies, just listen to what is spoken and done by the priest and people and see if that accelerates your understanding.

I have been doing LEITOURGEO for many years and today I am amazed that Isaiah 60:1-5 comes alive during Liturgy.

Christ in you, your HOPE of Glory
Carlos

Sorry to be redundant I had addressed the useage in John chapter 4 earlier.

In so far as the authority as it relates to liturgy, that does not seem to be a nessary. Where it is a set of rules I could make up a set of rules for my daily prayer and study time and to some extent we all do. I by neccesity need no authority do so. Ones set of rules do not allways assure the "worship" as being true to god the Father. The mormans ands the muslims are very very liturgy in nature.

Liturgy:

1. A prescribed form or set of forms for public religious worship.

You can not "do" liturgy, you can worship in a liturgy fashion. I have observed many differnt forms of Liturgy in my days, and am not convienced it has nothing to do with the effective worship of God the creator. We must worship in spirit and truth reguardless of the forms imployed.


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Carlos Vigil]

"Mother of all NT scripture" - you are kidding us, right?

It was written about 80-110 A.D. , well after all the books of the NT, except Revelation, possibly.

And the Didache is NOT scripture.

Well, I'll have to admit, "the mother of all NT scripture"sounds a little "Saddam Hussein-ish"

But think about it, The Didache was WRITTEN in 74 a.d., so what did the Apostles and other Christian witnesses (new converts) teach or preach prior to 74 a.d. since they had NOTHING WRITTEN from 33 to 74 a.d. except the Old Testament.

Could it be that you are hung up on SCRIPTURE (what was written)? ..... are you "applying" SOLA SCRIPTURA " to the early church when "SS" had not been coined until 1531 a.d. If you are going farther back in church history, you have to leave "sola scriptura" in the 16th century, other wise if you mentioned s/s to the early Christians , they would say to you;"SOLA WHAT?"

They had no books. The Didache is not scripture as we know scripture, (1 Tim 3:9,15,/4:16,/6:3,/2 Tim. 1:14. The Apostles Received the Message from Christ, He promised them The Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13-15) so when they Spoke they Spoke what he Gave them (tradition), orally, not written.AND as the Holy Spirit PROMPTED them they spoke.. I hope you have tasted THE PROMPTING and speaking in the power of the Spirit. that is called "Being led by the Holy Spirit. (Rom. 8:14)...so when SCRIPTURE came on the scene,none of it disagreed with Didache because Jesus Christ Through The Spirit, through the Apostles is the origin of their Authority, & both Didache and Scripture. didache came first. that is why I borrowed Sadaam's "mother of all....".What I should have said is "THE WORD OF GOD is the mother of all scripture".

Carlos

 

[Carlos Vigil]

[/color]

Good Day, Carlos

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Would you then cosder your self to be a pre trib "rapturist."

Thank you for posting that part of The Didache, reading it is like drinking pure LIVING WATER....... BEAUTIFUL!

I do not consider myself a rapturist. From what I see IN SCRIPTURE, the "rapture " is a deception, based on fear of suffering, love of comfort, and a breach that leads the Faithful away from The New Covenant.(2 Thess. 2:11)

Ones set of rules do not allways assure the "worship" as being true to god the Father. The mormans ands the muslims are very very liturgy in nature.[/color]

From my small understanding of Mormons & Muslims, they have no clue as to Liturgy....... "ceremony", maybe,... but liturgy;no.
the requirement for Liturgy is (a) that you have an ALTAR. (b) that you have an ordained PRIEST called by God to Consecrate at the Altar.(Rev. 11:1)
(Mt. 23:19)......Mormons and Muslims are not even in the horizon.

[*]A prescribed form or set of forms for public religious worship.

We must worship in spirit and truth reguardless of the forms imployed.[/color]
Bill[/color]

You are right ON with that quote, BBAS.
(Psalm 19:9)..."The Precepts of The Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; The Command of the Lord is clear, enlightening the eye."

(Psalm 116:12,13)..."How shall I make a return to the Lord for all the GOOD He has done for me?
The CUP OF SALVATION I will take up, and I will call upon the Name of the Lord;"

Jesus commanded us to "Do this in Remembrance of Me".
The Last Supper is The Feast of; (1 Cor. 5:7,8)
it is the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass, (the Liturgy)
it is Christ's once-and-for-all Perpetual (DIENEKES) OFFERING.
it is a periscope view of the Lamb whom you will see in (Rev. 5
and it is WHERE & WHEN we DO (Rom. 12:1)
This is not man's rules. this is God's Ordinances (Psalm 19:8-12)

to the merest children of Mt. 11:25
carlos

 

[II Paradox II]

But think about it, The Didache was WRITTEN in 74 a.d., so what did the Apostles and other Christian witnesses (new converts) teach or preach prior to 74 a.d. since they had NOTHING WRITTEN from 33 to 74 a.d. except the Old Testament.

hmm... a few points

1) Where did you get a date for of 74 AD for the Didache? As with most things written during this period, there is wide disagreement over exactly when various things were written, often with variance of 100 years or more. The commentary I have read would place the Didache anywhere between 60 and 100 AD (with more liberal scholars placing it after 100 AD). Either way, you'd be hard pressed to assign anything more than a general date range to the document.

2) As with the Didache, there is wide disagreement over when various scriptural books were written. However, many scholars (especially those on the more conservative side) would place a good majority of the NT before or during the probable times projected for the writing of the Didache. The four gospels themselves have a likely writing date within 20 to 30 years of Christ's crucifixtion.

3) to accept so early a writing for the Didache (such as 74 AD), while simultaneously rejecting an early date for the scriptural books seems to me to be mere preudice, rather than consistent reference to the evidence at hand.

4) Personally, I think it's likely that the Didache is early, but even more likley that a good portion of the scriptures themselves are even earlier.

ken

 

[BBAS 64]

Thank you for posting that part of The Didache, reading it is like drinking pure LIVING WATER....... BEAUTIFUL!

I do not consider myself a rapturist. From what I see IN SCRIPTURE, the "rapture " is a deception, based on fear of suffering, love of comfort, and a breach that leads the Faithful away from The New Covenant.(2 Thess. 2:11)

Good day, Carlos

So, you are of the opion that the writers of the Didache are lead away from the Faith?

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

From my small understanding of Mormons & Muslims, they have no clue as to Liturgy....... "ceremony", maybe,... but liturgy;no.
the requirement for Liturgy is (a) that you have an ALTAR. (b) that you have an ordained PRIEST called by God to Consecrate at the Altar.(Rev. 11:1)
(Mt. 23:19)......Mormons and Muslims are not even in the horizon.

I am some what confused here. I have given you the Greek and the english definition of what Liturgy is. Even so to the degragation of you points for some reason you fail to understand the useage of the word. Would you please provide your understaning of the word.

You are right ON with that quote, BBAS.
(Psalm 19:9)..."The Precepts of The Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; The Command of the Lord is clear, enlightening the eye."

(Psalm 116:12,13)..."How shall I make a return to the Lord for all the GOOD He has done for me?
The CUP OF SALVATION I will take up, and I will call upon the Name of the Lord;"

I am glad to see we agree here ,one's worship is not dependant on the form empolyed in said worship.

Jesus commanded us to "Do this in Remembrance of Me".
The Last Supper is The Feast of; (1 Cor. 5:7,8)
it is the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass, (the Liturgy)
it is Christ's once-and-for-all Perpetual (DIENEKES) OFFERING.
it is a periscope view of the Lamb whom you will see in (Rev. 5
and it is WHERE & WHEN we DO (Rom. 12:1)
This is not man's rules. this is God's Ordinances (Psalm 19:8-12)

to the merest children of Mt. 11:25
carlos

Carlos

Do not know how this is revelant to our disscussion. If you would like to understand the 8,000 year Tradition of the Jews called passover and the relationship of the last supper "Sader" and the forms of liturgy employed by the Jews found with in the OT scripture . This would not be the thread IMHO, I am sure you could ask in the MJ fourm and they could help you.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Carlos Vigil]

hmm... a few points

1) Where did you get a date for of 74 AD for the Didache? As with most things written during this period, there is wide disagreement over exactly when various things were written, often with variance of 100 years or more. The commentary I have read would place the Didache anywhere between 60 and 100 AD (with more liberal scholars placing it after 100 AD). Either way, you'd be hard pressed to assign anything more than a general date range to the document.[QUOTE/]

My Catholic encyclopedia says it was written in Syria around 60 a.d., but it seems that KennySe posted ( from The Vatican, in OBOB forum ) much info. including some Didache writings with a date around 74 a.d.,His Thread was "St Peter was the First Pope."

2) As with the Didache, there is wide disagreement over when various scriptural books were written. However, many scholars (especially those on the more conservative side) would place a good majority of the NT before or during the probable times projected for the writing of the Didache. The four gospels themselves have a likely writing date within 20 to 30 years of Christ's crucifixtion.[/QUOTE ]

Yes I agree with you that there is wide disagreement, my own New American
'70 bible says that Luke's writing were in 75 a.d. and Mark's was in 70 a.d.
...this is interesting , I've never read these intros to ea.Gospel, there is info. about St. Paul, John Mark, Irenaeus, Clement, Tertulian, Origen, Justin Martyr...WOW!...these are some of the Big Guns Who were instructed By BIGGER GUNS,the original Apostles...Man, these were TOUCHED WHILE THE IRON IS HOT!!!...Can you imagine the Joy of Christ to SEE that "THE FIRE HE CAME TO CAST UPON THE EARTH, WAS BEING IGNITED?"

3) to accept so early a writing for the Didache (such as 74 AD), while simultaneously rejecting an early date for the scriptural books seems to me to be mere preudice, rather than consistent reference to the evidence at hand.

I apologize if I gave you the impression that I rejected any dates when the SCRIPTURES were written. or if I seem prejudiced to you....The dates I quote are from My Catholic Bible , from the Catechism, and Catholic Church history
which I completely trust since The Catholic Church was there as it was happening. ( if I do not get the history of Christianity From the Catholic Church, the best I can do is GUESS, or accept somebody else's guess.
I don't know of any organization on Earth with more accurate Church History. Any one can access The Vatican Archives and learn What the Church has kept since Our Lord was conceived in the Womb of Mary.

4) Personally, I think it's likely that the Didache is early, but even more likley that a good portion of the scriptures themselves are even earlier.
ken

The history of WHAT,WHO, WHERE, WHEN, & WHY, is written already, If you want to be SURE, all you need to do is CLICK OVER to "One Bread One Body"forum and read the postings of KennySe, Michelina, and quite a few other BRIGHT SHINING STARS. They post websites directly to "WHERE THE MOLTEN IRON IS BEING POURED."

your local gusano,
Carlos

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Good day, Carlos

So, you are of the opion that the writers of the Didache are lead away from the Faith?

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


I am some what confused here. I have given you the Greek and the english definition of what Liturgy is. Even so to the degragation of you points for some reason you fail to understand the useage of the word. Would you please provide your understaning of the word.

I am glad to see we agree here ,one's worship is not dependant on the form empolyed in said worship.

Carlos
Do not know how this is revelant to our disscussion. If you would like to understand the 8,000 year Tradition of the Jews called passover and the relationship of the last supper "Sader" and the forms of liturgy employed by the Jews found with in the OT scripture . This would not be the thread IMHO, I am sure you could ask in the MJ fourm and they could help you.

Peace to u,

Bill

(1) No, I do not believe the Didache writers are led away from the Faith, rather, SOME writers and teachers of THIS AGE are led away. The Didache teachers were refering to THE SECOND COMING of CHRIST, not the rupture.

(2) Yes, I'm slow to understand...lets try another approach;(leaving "Liturgy"aside) lets follow "PROSKUNEO" 4352 ;to kiss, to bow, prostrate oneself in homage, to do reverence to, to adore, to worship."...In scripture we can see that Jesus did both "Leituorgeo" and "Proskuneo"

(3) Maybe yours is not . Mine is, I depend (trust heavily, look forward to, )when and how we worship....I prefer the prescribed Liturgy form of worship rather than ad lib or what-ever (leaving it up to the creativity of the worship leaders...I have attended "worship services" where the leaders (not following any precept ) launched into a "lets do something creative" mode and hope the Holy Spirit "blesses what WE DO.
very bland and dissapointing!...in that mode you have to work very hard to get even a tiny blessing.GOD PREFERS OBEDIENCE and he has alreasdy written it out in advance....(precept)...(ritual) which is more like;
JUST GET IN THE ELEVATOR and IT will carry you UP to the 15th floor and there you will SEE AWESOME SIGHTS. (the elevator=the prescribed ritual:Liturgy.



Thanks BBAS64, (4) as I understand the OT, all those sacrifices prefigured the ONE SACRIFICE we have now , which Jesus set in place;(Heb. 7:12 & Heb. 10:9&20)"When there is a change of priesthood, there is NECESSARILY a change of law," & "in other words, he takes away the first covenant to ESTABLISH the second." & "by the new and living PATH he has opened up for us through the VEIL (the "veil" meaning his FLESH,)...in every Mass , we offer The Flesh & Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ to the Father along with OUR living bodies (Rom. 12:1), in atonement of our sins and the sins of the whole world.
Do you know of any sacrifice more pure than that? (Mal. 1:11)

Your friend,
Carlos

 

[ChiRho]

GOD PREFERS OBEDIENCE

Doesn't God DEMAND obedience?

...in every Mass , we offer The Flesh & Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ to the Father along with OUR living bodies (Rom. 12:1), in atonement of our sins and the sins of the whole world.
Do you know of any sacrifice more pure than that? (Mal. 1:11)

You offer up (along with Christ) YOUR bodies for your atonement of sins? This hardly sounds pure, and perhaps a little self-glorifying. Maybe you could explain.

"We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with all teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone...Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them and should not be received otherwise or further than as withnesses, in what manner after the time of the apostles and at what places this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved." (Epitome, Triglotta, p. 777.)

"The Papacy also is nothing bu sheer enthusiasm, by which the Pope boasts that all rights exist in the shrine of his heart, and whatever he decides and commands with [in] his Church is spirit and right, even though it is above and contrary to Scripture and the spoken Word." (Smalcald Articles, Part III, Art. VIII, 4.)

Sola Scriptura.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho