Does this thread concern anyone else?

[Rosa Mystica]

I just read through some of this thread. Shocking to say the least. I am just baffled by the extent of desensitization to sin these days.

 

[Rosa Mystica]

Too late I already went there, didn't mean to invade anyone but I couldn't keep quiet. I'm sorry...

Yes, I noticed. You and Therese are to be congratulated for your courage. So many people today will keep quiet about sin just because they don't want to look bad.

 

[seebs]

No, seebs, 'objectively sinful' would not affect time in purgatory, since it does not involve culpability. You're right about 'subjectively sinful'.

So... What does "objectively sinful" affect? Does it have any effect on the world at all, or does it only matter in determining what conclusions we believe people should eventually reach through study and prayer?

 

[Michelina]

So... What does "objectively sinful" affect? Does it have any effect on the world at all, or does it only matter in determining what conclusions we believe people should eventually reach through study and prayer?

Actually, that's a good way of putting it, seebs. The Church is obliged to teach what God's Law (both the Natural Law and the ordinances of Christianity) tells us. She teaches what acts are objectively sinful and why.

If we are unknowingly doing something that is objectively sinful, it can still have a negative impact on others. And it affects others negatively in as much as it is not doing something positive to bless or encourage them.

 

[seebs]

Thanks. I think that helps me understand those teachings a lot better. I have seen many instances of things that I have come to believe are probably objectively sinful, but the people doing them seemed to have a good relationship with God anyway. The distinction between objective and subjective sin is a useful one, which I think helps a lot in understanding when it is appropriate to confront someone, when it is appropriate to express concerns, and when it is appropriate to keep your thoughts to yourself.

The more I learn about the human experience of sin, the harder I think it is to figure out how to interact with people in a loving manner when these issues arise. I do no one any favors if I jump up and down screaming about something they have not yet come to understand; even a calm discussion may be of no value if I can't explain and support my position.

Thanks very much for the clarification.

 

[Michelina]

I do no one any favors if I jump up and down screaming about something they have not yet come to understand;

This is something we should all remember. It is incumbunt upon us all to act prudently both to be effective and to represent Jesus well.

even a calm discussion may be of no value if I can't explain and support my position.

If you don't understand well enough to explain and support your position, you might do more harm than good.

 

[Polycarp1]

I'm going to pipe up here to say exactly two things, because anything else I have to say would be inappropriate in OBOB. But these two things, I believe, are worth speaking up on:

1. Someone should repost here that portion of the Catholic Catechism that BAChristian placed elsewhere, I think in that thread. That says a great deal about how to address the issue from the Catholic perspective, and I respect what he had to say over there very much.

2. As I mentioned to thereselittleflower (without the "-the-" ) in a thread over in News and Current Events, there have been a lot of condemnatory posts from non-Catholics, not dealing with the sin but judging the people, and harshly, totally rejecting any dialogue or ministering. Any witness based on the Catholic stance must (IMO) stress the love and compassion of the Church as much as it does the reality and seriousness of the sin, or it will be mistaken for "more of the same" and be totally countereffective.

And, BTW, having seen and in a few cases been the target of some snide, hate-filled, and/or judgmental posts elsewhere on this board, may I say that the welcome, respect, and general all-around caritas I've received in OBOB has been wonderful. I think you all deserve an extra star in your crown or however "God awards rep. points" for the decency and ministry you've shown me.

 

[Rosa Mystica]

We are pretty awesome, aren't we?

 

[Michelina]

...may I say that the welcome, respect, and general all-around caritas I've received in OBOB has been wonderful. I think you all deserve an extra star in your crown or however "God awards rep. points" for the decency and ministry you've shown me.

The feeling is mutual, Poly. You are a Christian gentleman and your posts are highly valued, as is your presence. Pax Domini sit semper tecum!

 

[BAChristian]

Interesting! So, if I'm understanding this distinction correctly, "objectively sinful" is the standard that might affect your time in purgatory, but "subjectively sinful" is what you need to repent... So, if you're simply too clueless to understand that you're wrong, you can't be subjectively sinful, even if you're objectively sinful.

This sounds like it might be a resolution to the fairly tricky question of how people can possibly repent all of their sins, when most people never even understand many of their sins.

I think you're making it more complicated than what it is partner...

Venial sin is what you will be cleansed from in Purgatory. Venial, meaning, impatience, getting angry with someone and maybe raising your voice, but not going as far as committing a mortal sin which would be like, cursing him/her out, etc...

We're not perfect. We all sin...but I say, "We all sin" in regards to our normal, everyday faults.

I don't like to say, "We all sin" when talking about mortal sin. Because even though we may commit a mortal sin, I don't want to sound like it's an every day occurrence. Mortal sin should never be an every day occurrence. And it's my opinion, that if you're confessing mortal sin every week, then you seriously need to re-evaluate your devotion to Christ.

Hope I haven't made you more confused...

 

[seebs]

Okay, I think maybe I understand. Or maybe I don't.

If I grow up in a culture where we're simply all totally blind to something which is, in fact, objectively sinful, so that I never in my life encounter anyone who sees anything wrong with it... What effects, if any, does this have on me? Assume I do whatever it is, because I am never even exposed to the idea that I might want to do otherwise.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Congrats to Christy and Therese for fighting the good fight in that thread.

 

[RhetorTheo]

Okay, I think maybe I understand. Or maybe I don't.

If I grow up in a culture where we're simply all totally blind to something which is, in fact, objectively sinful, so that I never in my life encounter anyone who sees anything wrong with it... What effects, if any, does this have on me? Assume I do whatever it is, because I am never even exposed to the idea that I might want to do otherwise.

My understanding of Church doctrine is that people in countries that do not know of the Gospel can be saved, as they are doing God's will to the best of their knowledge and ability.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Yes, I noticed. You and Therese are to be congratulated for your courage. So many people today will keep quiet about sin just because they don't want to look bad.

Therese= My partner in battle!


We marched in there like a couple of soldiers ready to fight the good fight!

Needless to say we weren't very popular there but I don't care, we said what we needed to say!

Right Therese??


I love you guys!