Chinchilla
Well-Known Member
Paul spoke of death , it is appointed to man once to die both saved and lost . Lost people don't die because they are not saved but because they sinned .
Paul did not talk about second death.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
We do not know what that worse thing is. We cannot assume it is a worse sickness. It could be physical death followed by hell. Why? Because Matthew 5:28-30 says you can be cast bodily into hell because of looking at a woman in lust. Jesus says in Matthew 6:15 that if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. While believers can be made sick because of their sin as per James 5:14-15, that does not mean that sin only leads to sickness. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Just physical death? No. There is a second death (the Lake of Fire) for those who break God's Moral Law (See Revelation 21:8).
The law of God reveals to a saved sinner his wretched dead self by Gods grace. It shows himself his inability to measure up to its perfection and holiness. It exposes a sinners true self.. a vile creature in need of mercy! In conversion a dead sinner awakens to see his need for Christ. As he desires righteousness, he is broken and in despair over his sin. And cast himself upon Christ and His righteousness for forgiveness. And pleads for Gods Sovereign mercy. This is the fruit of a believer throughout the days of his life. Although some bear more fruit than others, nevertheless Gods elect bears fruit by Gods grace. And will persevere in faith by Gods power and grace. But to the self righteous Judaizers, the law of God is nothing more than a boast, to show how righteous and obedient they are and can be. As they seek approval from God by their arrogance, they do not realize how dead wretched and vile they are. By espousing that salvation can be lost in Christ, shows the fruit of these imposters
Amen!Excellant post. The problem with the legalists here is that they have never had their hearts made contrite by the Holy Spirit.Their self-righteousness has blinded them to the fact that they need to acknowledge their absolute wretchedness before a Holy God.If and when they are blessed enough to see themselves as the utterly lost sinners that they are and that the only reason anybody is saved is due to the Blood Of Christ and the Grace of God, only then will they abandon the Judaizers greatest delusion......” Jesus saves—- BUT.” As Paul warned, they pervert the true Gospel, Christ is no benefit to them and they are “ accursed”. There is a “ fear and trembling” involved in our salvation.It comes when you really SEE yourself for the vile thing that you are.Understanding this and that God can forgive you anyway and provide you with everything you need to be saved is the impetus for living a life that is pleasing to Him.Its a life of FAITH plus nothing. “The just shall live by faith”.....legalists never get it.I hope Newbies to the faith simply BELIEVE 1 cor15:1-4 for their salvation and don’t make the mistake of trying to add to it.Trust God and if you do He will put His Spirit in you and you will FIND yourself doing the things that He wants from you.He wants you to be transformed into the image of His Son.You can change your outside and fool many like some in here do.......or you can let Him change the inside.Only He can do that.
What about this parable?
I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.
John 15:1-6
Why are you verbosely arguing against faith without works when I have consistently stated that saving faith is only that which effect works? Nor did i ever express that i believe that doing good as a part of salvation is immoral? It is not the basis for justification but again, faith without works is dead, and works justify one as being a believer, confirming one is saved. Why then are you fit for further attempts to reason with you??James says he will show you his faith by his works (See James 2:18).
So works are not in conflict with God's grace by faith. It is a part of it (after we come to the Lord Jesus by faith - seeking His forgiveness) we then bring forth works (Which is a reflection of our continued faith or belief in the Savior).
For the very goal or reason why Christ died for us was so as to make us holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27) and for us to be zealous of good works (Titus 2:14).
1 John 1:7 says,
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
So you have to walk [i.e. keep God's commandments] in the light [i.e. God the Father] as He [i.e. Christ] is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin. Compare 1 John 1:5-7 with 1 John 2:3-4.
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).
Also, Hebrews 5:9 says,
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
Do you believe this above verse in what it plainly says?
Or would you seek to change what it says because you don't like it?
Hebrews 5:9 plainly says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to ALL who OBEY him.
It does not say to all who believe and do not worry about sin but just focus on his sacrifice.
You obviously did not read and understand Romans 8:1 or you are reading from a Modern Translation that left out certain key words to what it fully says.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).
I mean, what do you do when you encounter and or read Romans 8:13?
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).
For Romans 8:13 clearly says,
1. If you live after the flesh, you will die.
2. If you through the Spirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body (sin), you shall live.
Not true. Nowhere does Paul condemn the Moral Law as a part of the faith or after we are saved by God's grace. Paul lists that those who break the moral law will not inherit the Kingdm of God (See Galatians 5:19-21). Paul distinguishes what law he is talking about when he says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). Paul does not say if you seek to not murder, and or if you seek to not steal, Christ will profit you nothing. Nowhere does Paul ever say that.
Also, the context of Galatians 3:10 is in reference to the Law of Moses (the 613 commands given to Israel) and Paul is not referring to God's Eternal Moral Laws or the Commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers in the New Testament.
"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." (Galatians 3:17).
Which law came 430 years after the promise made to Abraham?
Is it the Law of Moses or the Law of Christ?
Obviously it is talking about the Law of Moses and not all law.
But we still have to serve, though.
"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).
Romans 7:6 says that we are to serve in newness of spirit and NOT in the oldness of the letter.
What is the oldness of the letter?
It is the 613 Laws within the Law of Moses given to Israel.
What makes you believe that doing good as a part of salvation is immoral?
Or are you just blindly reading those verses you want to see in the Bible to fit your own personal belief?
God's Word is not contrary to Moral Law or in doing good.
Why? Because God is good.
For his people are a reflection of God.
For God is the One who works within His people.
If they regulated sin to not being all that important, then it would destroy the very reason Christ died on the cross for us. For sin was so serious that it required the death of God's Son (Jesus Christ). So God takes sin very seriously because the wages of sin is death. Jesus does not undo sin for us so we no longer have to worry about sin. Jesus cleans our past slate and gives a fresh new start. If we sin again, we have to go to His grace and seek to overcome that sin. If not, then we are turning God's grace into a license for immorality (See Jude 1:4 (NIV)).
Life teaches us that if a person has a low regard for something, then chances are that person is not going to care about it and they are going to end up doing the very thing that they have very low regard for. For if a person does not care about staying in shape, chances are (if they do not have a high metabolism) they are going to be fat and overweight. The same is true with someone who does not regard sin as being that vital or important in their walk with God. If they feel sin only damages the fellowship with God, and not their salvation, chances are they are going to commit sin on some level and think they are saved (Thereby turning God's grace into a license for immorality).
Just look at the fruit from the life of George Sodini (Who was a huge proponent of Eternal Security).
http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm
1 John 5:2 says,
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."
1 John 3:10 says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
Also, again, not all sin is the same. 1 John 5:16 says clearly that there is a sin NOT unto death. The sin not unto death is clearly in reference to a believer confessing their sin with the intention of forsaking that sin (See 1 John 1:9 cf. with 1 John 1:7 and Proverbs 28:13). For John only mentions the only exemption for sin is through confession (1 John 1:9) and forsaking it (1 John 1:7). John says that person who commits sin, they are of the devil (1 John 3:8). John says that all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).
Also, there are other kinds of sins that do NOT lead unto death. Peter says baptism does not save us for the putting away of the "filth of the flesh" (1 Peter 3:21). This "filthiness of the flesh" is clearly in reference to "sin" (As shown elsewhere in the New Testament - See 2 Corinthians 7:1). So baptism is not in reference to a Command with spiritual death consequences (if a believer does not obey it). Paul lists many times those sins that will cause a believer to not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21) (Ephesians 5:3-7) (Colossians 3:5-10) (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). This is further repeated by John in Revelation 21:8. In addition, Jesus also lists certain commands that have spiritual death in mind for a person if they were to break them (Like looking upon another in lust (Matthew 18:9), not forgiving others (Matthew 6:15), and leading a child to stumble into sin (Matthew 18:6 NLT)).
As for John 15:1-6:
Well, some OSAS proponents think that appealing to the Greek is the answer to making sense out of this passage. For the OSAS proponent will naturally claim that Jesus really did not say that we had to abide in Him and be fruitful or we will be burned. However, is this true? Surely not. Again, the Bible means what it says plainly in the English. God did not require us to seek out another language in order to understand Him. God was more than capable of translating the people's language just fine in Acts 2.
Besides, there are plenty of verses that say we have to be fruitful in order to be saved.
”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”
(Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
Are we to assume all these other verses do not mean what they plainly say, too?
Surely not.
The New Testament tells a believer to Fear God (God the Father) (1 Peter 2:17).
The New Testament tells a believer to fear Jesus instead of fearing the person who can kill their body.
Fear not them that can kill the body but fear the One (Jesus) who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28).
Also, again, "fear" is the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7).
But 1 John 4:18 says perfect love casts out fear.
How does one do that?
As I said before, he that keeps God's Word perfects God's love within their life (See 1 John 2:5).
So as you obey God, you put away the judgment and wrath of God and thereby you put away being in fear of God because you are obeying Him.
Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
The thief on the cross rebuked the other thief for not fearing God.
"But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?" (Luke 23:40).
This is because the thief who did not fear God was insulting to God (His insults were a violation the commandments of God and he did not care; It's because he had no fear of God).
Also, there are those who turned God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4), they fed themselves without fear.
"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;" (Jude 1:12).
Some believers save with fear.
"And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 1:23).
Conclusion:
As we can see the word "fear" means "fear" in the Bible. Do not fall for the non-sense of men who will seek to change God's Word because they do not like what it says.
I am sorry, but basic rules of grammar do not support you here.
You are inserting your own grammar fantasies into the text.
Not one grammar teacher (who is not biased) would approve what you just wrote here. It's utter non-sense.
A person can just change the meaning of the sentence around in Romans 8:13 using other things and see the falseness of what you are trying to propose.
For example:
13 "If you drink lots of rat poison while you work, you will die, but if you drink lots of water while working on a hot day (as per the instructions of your company), you will live.
14 For as many who drink lots of water on a hot day are called "smart" within their company."
Verse 14 does not undo the first half of verse 13.
A person is given a choice between two options in verse 13.
Verse 14 is merely an extension of the latter half of verse 13.
The first half of verse 13 is not addressing an entirely different group of people here.
It's still talking to YOU the reader! For it uses the word "you" in there.
Oh? Show how these "basic rules of grammar" don't support my explanations, then. Keep in mind that I used to teach High School grammar - among other subjects - and know English grammar very well. So, carry on. Show me how these "basic rules" defy my explanations.
Besides, there are plenty of verses that say we have to be fruitful in order to be saved.
”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”
(Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).
The Father indeed prunes and disciplines those whom he loves so that they REMAIN IN ME. Despite this, those believers who choose NOT TO REMAIN in the vine are USELESS and WITHER and thrown into the fire. Only believers have the choice whether to remain in Him. Unbelievers on the other hand, are not part of the vine in the first place as they are not attached to Jesus.
.
Just a question, what is it in these verses, that brings you to the conclusion that this is a Parable?
One must be a believer in the first place in order to ABIDE. It is impossible for an unbeliever to abide since he/she is not in Christ. From the moment of belief, a believer has the choice whether of not to remain attached to the vine. A believer can detach from the vine through no longer believing and/or habitual disobedience.That would mean a nonbeliever can be in Christ and Christ is in that person. That’s not a nonbeliever. Just like the parable of the servant of the master. The servant is a believer and the master is God. That person is a servant of God otherwise they wouldn’t be a servant of the master if they didn’t believe. How can you be a servant if you don’t believe in the master?
1) From the moment of belief, a believer has the choice whether of not to remain attached to the vine.
2)A believer can detach from the vine through no longer believing and/or habitual disobedience.
Because we are not literally branches and Jesus is not literally a vine. It’s a metaphor.
One must be a believer in the first place in order to ABIDE. It is impossible for an unbeliever to abide since he/she is not in Christ. From the moment of belief, a believer has the choice whether of not to remain attached to the vine. A believer can detach from the vine through no longer believing and/or habitual disobedience.
.
With that as the criteria, is the Book of the Revelation also considered to be a Parable by you, because it is nothing but Metaphor?
I've been tossed between doctrines many times.
I come across scriptures that seem to support OSAS and some refute it.
I really want to stop being tossed and be justified by faith in Christ and not by the law, yet live holy before the Lord without saying is this getting me to heaven? But simply just knowing the truth... For example there's a scripture that talks about that some are ever-learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and I don't want that to be me...
Please explain to me if this supports OSAS somehow, or it simply refutes it.
The scripture is Matthew 24:48-51 KJV
Matthew 24:48-51 King James Version (KJV)
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Brothers and sisters, this was not meant to be a debate. We can send scriptures but as far as that goes that should be the end, let the Lord speak to those who have a ear.
My beloved brothers and sisters, please do not be deceived by false doctrine.
Please, draw near to God by faith through the Spirit and listen to his voice.
For he is gentle and humble and he will teach you all you need to know.
He has moved so much in my life and a lot today and I have gained much understanding. Any disobedient and careless act can bring us to another unholy deed that can lead to many more. We are to workout our salvation. We are to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
My beloved brothers and sisters, please search the word of truth for yourself, do not listen to any website, family member, or church, but listen to the true word of God that liveth and abideth for ever. Please do not deny Jesus but allow him to speak to you.
Please before you read or answer below, take some time to humble yourself, draw near to God by faith, to be in the Spirit.
I ask that before answering you ask the Lord for understanding and wisdom.
May Jesus abundantly bless you with his knowledge, and many many miracles that worketh mightily in those who abideth in him. Praise the Lord!
UPDATE:
I have found many scriptures that just simply refute the doctrine I believe.
Here are two more -
James 5:19-20
Acts 5:1-11
Let no man deceive you!
If you have a answer for how these do not refute it, please post it below, thank you!
Yes, this passage refutes OSAS. There are quite a few of them. Osas is not a Biblical doctrine. It was rejected by the church and only became accepted by the Reformers when the Reformation came about. The Reformers were students of Augustine. It came from Gnostic thinking.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?