Does this scripture refute OSAS? [Updated]

[MDC]

I remember the first time I accepted Jesus as my Savior. When I read the tract called "This Was Your Life," I had seen an angel casting someone into the Lake of Fire within the comic with the words from Revelation 20:15 that said, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Needless to say that this verse and image helped to put the fear of God in me so as to repent of my sins to the Lord Jesus Christ. So those who say that we are not to fear the Lord, they don't know what they are talking about. Don't listen to them. Jesus changed my life the moment I knew I was on my way to hell and I repented of my sins (Back in 1992).

My encouragement is to believe the Bible in what it says at face value and pray for the understanding when you read it.

Side Note:

You can check out the tract (that the Lord used to save me) here.

The law of God reveals to a saved sinner his wretched dead self by Gods grace. It shows himself his inability to measure up to its perfection and holiness. It exposes a sinners true self.. a vile creature in need of mercy! In conversion a dead sinner awakens to see his need for Christ. As he desires righteousness, he is broken and in despair over his sin. And cast himself upon Christ and His righteousness for forgiveness. And pleads for Gods Sovereign mercy. This is the fruit of a believer throughout the days of his life. Although some bear more fruit than others, nevertheless Gods elect bears fruit by Gods grace. And will persevere in faith by Gods power and grace. But to the self righteous Judaizers, the law of God is nothing more than a boast, to show how righteous and obedient they are and can be. As they seek approval from God by their arrogance, they do not realize how dead wretched and vile they are. By espousing that salvation can be lost in Christ, shows the fruit of these imposters

 

[aiki]

Verse 14 does not undo what verse 13 says. Some OSAS proponents believe that verse 14 changes the dynamic of who is being spoken to in the first half of Roman 8:13. But there is no indication of this in the text.

Yes, there is. It's in the word "For" that appears at the beginning of verse 14.

Greek Word: γάρ
Transliteration: gar
Root: a primary particle
Part of Speech: conj

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
for 1027
miscellaneous translations 28
not tr 12
[Total Count: 1067]

a primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles) :- and, as, because (that), but, even, for, indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

The word "For" signifies an explanation of what has just gone before. As I already noted, verse 14 gives the reason for the behaviour of the person who is not living according to their flesh but is instead being led of the Spirit. The idea, then, that there is no textual reason to directly connect verse 14 to verse 13 in the way that I have is completely mistaken.

A person can go from being a son of God to a child of the devil.

This is, obviously, not what the verses say. This is your spin on what they say, accomplished by eisegesis, rather than by letting the verses speak for themselves.

A person can go from being a son of God to a child of the devil. If this was not the case, then there would have been no need to send a Savior when Adam sinned.

Adam was never a "son of God" in the way a born-again believer under the New Covenant is. Using him as grounds for your thinking, then, is pointless.

Basic reading rules of grammar and writing do not allow for the 1st half of Romans 8:13 to be talking about unbelievers.

You don't seem to understand basic rules of grammar. See above.

 

[JIMINZ]

However then, the converse is also true as those Christians who have choose not to crucify their flesh ARE NOT Christ's.

.
A christian as you call them, who has not crucified the Flesh,
"IS NOT A CHRISTIAN"....Period.

 

[JIMINZ]

Rom 8:3 states that Christ's atonement make it possible for us to crucify our sinful flesh - something that could not be done under the Law. However, this verse does not state that all Christians will choose to crucify their flesh.

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The only way a Non-Believer becomes a Born Again Son of God (Christian)
"IS" by Crucifying the Flesh.

Any so called Christian who has not crucified the Flesh is none of His, you must be Born Again.

A person is either a Christian or they are not, there isn't any of this back and forth, choosing one out of column A. another out of column B.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In regards to fearing God (Continued):

The New Testament tells a believer to Fear God (God the Father) (1 Peter 2:17).

The New Testament tells a believer to fear Jesus instead of fearing the person who can kill their body.

Fear not them that can kill the body but fear the One (Jesus) who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28).

Also, again, "fear" is the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7).
But 1 John 4:18 says perfect love casts out fear.
How does one do that?
As I said before, he that keeps God's Word perfects God's love within their life (See 1 John 2:5).
So as you obey God, you put away the judgment and wrath of God and thereby you put away being in fear of God because you are obeying Him.
Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

The thief on the cross rebuked the other thief for not fearing God.

"But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?" (Luke 23:40).

This is because the thief who did not fear God was insulting to God (His insults were a violation the commandments of God and he did not care; It's because he had no fear of God).

Also, there are those who turned God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4), they fed themselves without fear.

"These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;" (Jude 1:12).

Some believers save with fear.

"And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 1:23).

Conclusion:

As we can see the word "fear" means "fear" in the Bible. Do not fall for the non-sense of men who will seek to change God's Word because they do not like what it says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

.
The only way a Non-Believer becomes a Born Again Son of God (Christian)
"IS" by Crucifying the Flesh.

Any so called Christian who has not crucified the Flesh is none of His, you must be Born Again.

A person is either a Christian or they are not, there isn't any of this back and forth, choosing one out of column A. another out of column B.

Yeah, but Romans 8:13 gives us the reader (Which is written to the believer) two options or choices.

The first half of the verse says if you (the reader/believer) live after the flesh, you shall die.

If Paul was talking to unbelievers he would have clarified that point in the text, but he did not mention unbelievers in Romans 8:13. Not sure how you can not see that obvious fact.

 

[Chinchilla]

Yeah, but Romans 8:13 gives us the reader (Which is written to the believer) two options or choices.

The first half of the verse says if you (the reader/believer) live after the flesh, you shall die.

If Paul was talking to unbelievers he would have clarified that point in the text, but he did not mention unbelievers in Romans 8:13. Not sure how you can not see that obvious fact.

The first half of the verse says if you (the reader/believer) live after the flesh, you shall die.

Paul saying that flesh will die so stop walking in it , Spirit will be alive so bear fruit in Spirit .

For example you have choice , you can become strong man worshipping your flesh and it will profit you nothing because it will die .

But you can preach the gospel and not care about your flesh and it will give you profit because which is born of Spirit does not perish .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul saying that flesh will die so stop walking in it , Spirit will be alive so bear fruit in Spirit .

For example you have choice , you can become strong man worshipping your flesh and it will profit you nothing because it will die .

But you can preach the gospel and not care about your flesh and it will give you profit because which is born of Spirit does not perish .

Uh, no. When Paul says you will die, he is referring to spiritual death.

Death is associated with not pleasing God.

6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 8:6-7).

Are those who do not please God the kind of people that are saved?

Surely not.

If that's not enough for ya, then there is Romans 8:1.

It says,

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).

So you have to walk after the Spirit (and NOT after the flesh) in order to not be under the "Condemnation."

What is the "Condemnation"?

The Bible defines the "Condemnation" as this:

19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
(John 3:19-21).

I am not sure you probably caught what this passage said, but it says in verse 20 very clearly that all who do evil hate the light, unless their deeds are reproved.

1 John 3:8 says all who commit sin are of the devil.

1 John 3:15 says that if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us.

1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, there is. It's in the word "For" that appears at the beginning of verse 14.

Greek Word: γάρ
Transliteration: gar
Root: a primary particle
Part of Speech: conj

Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
for 1027
miscellaneous translations 28
not tr 12
[Total Count: 1067]

a primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles) :- and, as, because (that), but, even, for, indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

The word "For" signifies an explanation of what has just gone before. As I already noted, verse 14 gives the reason for the behaviour of the person who is not living according to their flesh but is instead being led of the Spirit. The idea, then, that there is no textual reason to directly connect verse 14 to verse 13 in the way that I have is completely mistaken.



This is, obviously, not what the verses say. This is your spin on what they say, accomplished by eisegesis, rather than by letting the verses speak for themselves.



Adam was never a "son of God" in the way a born-again believer under the New Covenant is. Using him as grounds for your thinking, then, is pointless.



You don't seem to understand basic rules of grammar. See above.

I am sorry, but basic rules of grammar do not support you here. You are inserting your own grammar fantasies into the text. Not one grammar teacher (who is not biased) would approve what you just wrote here. It's utter non-sense.

A person can just change the meaning of the sentence around in Romans 8:13 using other things and see the falseness of what you are trying to propose.

For example:

13 "If you drink lots of rat poison while you work, you will die, but if you drink lots of water while working on a hot day (as per the instructions of your company), you will live.
14 For as many who drink lots of water on a hot day are called "smart" within their company."

Verse 14 does not undo the first half of verse 13. A person is given a choice between two options in verse 13. Verse 14 is merely an extension of the latter half of verse 13. The first half of verse 13 is not addressing an entirely different group of people here. It's still talking to YOU the reader! For it uses the word "you" in there.

 

[Chinchilla]

Death is associated with not pleasing God.

Not true , death is caused by sin not by not pleasing God .
Romans 6:23

Spirit of God can't die because God does not sin , also it can't leave you it's linked to your soul ( sealed with you ) when you are born again .

Even unbelievers will gain thier new flesh at resurrection but they will be judged and thrown into Lake of Fire in that flesh .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not true , death is caused by sin not by not pleasing God .
Romans 6:23

Spirit of God can't die because God does not sin , also it can't leave you it's linked to your soul ( sealed with you ) when you are born again .

Even unbelievers will gain thier new flesh at resurrection but they will be judged and thrown into Lake of Fire in that flesh .

What does God dying or not have to do with what I said?
I said "death" in relation to the believer.
Spiritual death.
Please go back and carefully re-read the verses I shown to you before.
I am not sure you really read them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, even believers die as a part of their faith, so it is not plausible that Paul is referring to physical death only in Romans 8. Especially when he relates "death" (our death) with not pleasing God and how we are not under the "Condemnation" for those who walk after the Spirit and NOT after the flesh (sin).

So you have "die," "condemnation," and "not pleasing God" as proof that it is talking about spiritual death here. In fact, Paul talks about life by way of contrast, as well.

Would Paul really contrast physical death with spiritual life?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In Romans 1, we read this about "death":

28 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
(Romans 1:28-32).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

 

[JIMINZ]

Rom 6:6 states that are old man is crucified but just a few verses later Paul warns that we can choose to obey our sinful flesh which leads to DEATH or obey God which leads to righteousness.
That is why Paul warns the brethren in Rom 8:13 that IF they live according to the flesh, they will DIE. The word "if" indicates possibility - not certainly. If indicates that it is possible for a believer to choose to live according to the flesh. IF they do so, they will DIE. Die refers to spiritual death. It cannot refer to physical death because everyone dies physically no matter how we live our lives. Thus for you to claim that a Christian does not live according to the flesh is not accurate. It would be more accurate to say that some Christians do not live according to the flesh while others do. Those that do live according to the flesh and don't repent will experience spiritual death.

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Your explanation is sooooo convoluted, I can't even begin to decipher it, let alone explain to you where your in error.

I can now understand from your explanation, you really do not have any idea as to what your talking about.

Your expressing yourself as though your a Babe in Christ, there is so much of the basics a Christian should understand about where is it they stand in Christ, and how they got there.

I'm not saying these things to insult you or your intelligence, it's just that your so unlearned in the things a Christian should know and understand, that in order to have a conversation with you, you would need to have someone teach you the beginnings of the Faith.

 

[JIMINZ]

Yeah, but Romans 8:13 gives us the reader (Which is written to the believer) two options or choices.

The first half of the verse says if you (the reader/believer) live after the flesh, you shall die.

If Paul was talking to unbelievers he would have clarified that point in the text, but he did not mention unbelievers in Romans 8:13. Not sure how you can not see that obvious fact.

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The only obvious fact that you appear to not be able to grasp is, Paul is teaching, and he in his explanation is giving both sides of the question in order for those he is teaching to understand fully where it is they have come from.

These believers are new, they are babes in Christ, they do not fully understand, therefore he is teaching them the basics of the faith, showing and explaining both sides for them, to be able to get a clearer picture of what a Christian has obtained through Christ.

 

[Chinchilla]

What does God dying or not have to do with what I said?
I said "death" in relation to the believer.
Spiritual death.
Please go back and carefully re-read the verses I shown to you before.
I am not sure you really read them.

If you yield to flesh you will get some sickness and die because of that .
Same as if elders of church pray for you when you are sick your sins of flesh will be forgiven and you will be healed

John 5:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

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The only obvious fact that you appear to not be able to grasp is, Paul is teaching, and he in his explanation is giving both sides of the question in order for those he is teaching to understand fully where it is they have come from.

These believers are new, they are babes in Christ, they do not fully understand, therefore he is teaching them the basics of the faith, showing and explaining both sides for them, to be able to get a clearer picture of what a Christian has obtained through Christ.

So do you think Paul is not talking to believers in the first half of verse 13 or do you think Paul is talking about physical death in Romans 8:13? Tell, me, does Paul pre-occupy himself with believers staying alive physically as his main concern or does he contrast spiritual life with spiritual death? Remember, Paul said to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you yield to flesh you will get some sickness and die because of that .
Same as if elders of church pray for you when you are sick your sins of flesh will be forgiven and you will be healed

John 5:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

We do not know what that worse thing is. We cannot assume it is a worse sickness. It could be physical death followed by hell. Why? Because Matthew 5:28-30 says you can be cast bodily into hell because of looking at a woman in lust. Jesus says in Matthew 6:15 that if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. While believers can be made sick because of their sin as per James 5:14-15, that does not mean that sin only leads to sickness. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Just physical death? No. There is a second death (the Lake of Fire) for those who break God's Moral Law (See Revelation 21:8).