Does this Question Invalidate Arminianism/Wesleyanism?

[FireDragon76]

I believe there is a great deal of overlap too, in the area of emphasis on experience. The incomprehensibility of God applies mostly to our intellects, but God can be known in the heart through faith. Orthodox definitely stress that.

I think that is the real issue. Terms like Arminian, Calvinist, etc. are intellectualizations, when in reality God is something, or rather Someone to experience, and not merely to think about. Thinking about God won't necessarily make you holy, although theology can be part of a love for God certainly.

 

[circuitrider]

I agree. Methodism didn't break up with the Anglican Church over doctrine. It was over issues of spiritual vitality and experience of God. You can have right doctrine and not experience God.

 

[FireDragon76]

One thing I am wondering about: in the Methodist tradition, is having a conversion experience necessary to be saved?

Orthodox see the sacraments themselves (or mysteries, to use the proper term) as an experience of God. But there are also ways people might experience God, through his grace, apart from visible sacraments (the whole process of hesychia, stillness or meditation on God, for instance, of a hermit living alone). And some elements of it are more akin to Pentecostalism.

I guess we in America, saturated with revivalism, aren't used to thinking of baptism as experiencing God's grace. We are used to thinking of grace as only being about when somebody testifies to some kind of inner change. I see that as the real difference.

I always thought it was the Revolution that lead to Methodism forming... to my knowledge Wesley died an Anglican. I believe a lot of the drain in the Church of England was the Calvinist roots of the Anglican Church... people got skeptical in the wake of the enlightenment and it became a kind of moralism, due to the Calvinist emphasis on sanctification and right living (it's easy to forget the Calvinist roots in Zurich were less over justification and more over perceived laxity of the Roman Catholic Church- for Calvin discipline was as much a part of the Church as justification by faith). Christianity was about moral living, and not much else. The doctrine of justification by faith had become an abstraction. Lutherans faced something very similar.

 

[circuitrider]

FireDragon,

No a "conversion" experience is not required for salvation. United Methodists view salvation as a journey beginning with God's prevenient grace that God offers to us before we could ever respond. We see our faith starting at our baptism.

In confirmation our confirmands are asked to profess their faith in Christ. But there is no assumption that they weren't Christians before doing so. This just allows them to take the opportunity to officially profess their faith in Christ and become professing members of the Church.

I would say that many young people who grow up in the Church, as I have, have always believed in Christ and can't remember not having ever believed.

 

[FireDragon76]

So, let's take Wesley... he was saved before his Aldersgate experience?

I've heard some more evangelical Anglicans talk about it and they make it sound like that's the point he was "converted", even saved.

 

[circuitrider]

Evangelicals tend to like to read the early Wesley. Wesley wrote so much over the years that if you pick and choose you can make him contradict himself. In his early writings after Aldersgate you get the impression that he wasn't really sure he was a Christian before that. Later you find, as he has had years to think about the experience, that he does not think that way in his maturing years.

Methodists mostly don't used the word "saved" as in "he got saved" because we believe that salvation is a journey and not an event. "Got saved" implies an experience where you are now a Christian and it is a done deal. "Conversion" implies that being coming a Christian has radically changed you. When we believe the change comes over time.

Methodism looks on faith as a journey from God's preveniently seeking a relationship with you, through your acceptance of that relationship, and for the rest of your life as you seek the ultimate goal of being sanctified by God. The ultimate goal isn't just getting into heaven it is being made holy.

Also remember that Methodists believe in the possibility of apostasy. If someone wants to walk away from their faith they can. Starting on the Christian journey does not mean that you have to finish it if you choose not too.

An oft used illustration is that Prevenient Grace is the porch of the Christian life. Profession of faith in Christ is the door to the house and the whole rest of the house is sanctification.

 

[FireDragon76]

Orthodox also recognize it is a process, though I suppose there are times it is also spoken of as a present reality. Such as in the Divine Liturgy after receiving the communion, the people say "We have seen the true light; we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, worshiping the undivided Trinity, for the Trinity has saved us"

Aside from that, I believe a lot of Orthodox don't talk about being saved that much, mostly because like Wesleyans, they believe in free will and they recognize they are not at the end of their journey yet.

 

[circuitrider]

We also talk about salvation as a present reality. We just don't talk about it as a done deal the way Calvinism tends to.

IMHO that is the biggest flaw in Calvinism. Making salvation something that happened in the past means current life with Christ isn't as important. It is kind of like buying divine fire insurance and then just going on doing whatever you want.

 

[ContraMundum]

If God "chose" or pre-ordained everything, we shouldn't have to give account of ourselves on judgment day. Our response should merely be "you made me do it!"

A God who chooses and fore-ordains everything can not be a God of justice and forgiveness and mercy would be a sham.

 

[BryanW92]

We also talk about salvation as a present reality. We just don't talk about it as a done deal the way Calvinism tends to.

IMHO that is the biggest flaw in Calvinism. Making salvation something that happened in the past means current life with Christ isn't as important. It is kind of like buying divine fire insurance and then just going on doing whatever you want.

Fortunately for us, we don't look at salvation in the cartoonish way that non-Calvinists think we do. We tend to emphasize the gratitude that is generated when given a gift of unimaginable proportions and a desire to use that gift for good. So, we get told that we view salvation as winning the lotto and then spending it on strippers, when the reality is that we view it as an inheritance from a beloved uncle and we want to make him proud of what we do with it.

 

[circuitrider]

Be that as it may Bryan, it is still predestination once you remove the window dressing.

 

[BryanW92]

Be that as it may Bryan, it is still predestination once you remove the window dressing.

Yes, it is. But that is God's work, whether it be predestination or the nudge of the Holy Spirit interacting with a prepared heart to allow what seems to be a free will choice. That doesn't excuse the incorrect portrayal of "what Calvinists believe" that I was taught in the UMC. Knowing how much of Calvinism is right and how much of Wesleyanism is right is one of those great mysteries.

All I know is that if it was my own free will, then I chose well. If it was God's plan, then he chose me and I'm grateful for that.

[Note: I didn't read this whole thread, so if you are just responding to someone attacking your beliefs, then go ahead and argue with him/her. ;-) ]

 

[circuitrider]

Bryan, I like you but you are leaning towards teaching Calvinism and against Wesleyanism here and declaring that what the UMC taught you wasn't true.

Believing that Calvinism is not the truth is a Wesleyan doctrine. It isn't a belief of Wesleyan doctrine that is is a "mystery" as to which is right or wrong. We are quite sure that Calvinism does not represent the Biblical witness.

So if you'd like an argument in favor of Calvinism or that we don't know which is true this really isn't the forum for that. We should take that elsewhere. But this is a Wesleyan forum.

Respectfully,

 

[Dave-W]

If God "chose" or pre-ordained everything, we shouldn't have to give account of ourselves on judgment day. Our response should merely be "you made me do it!"

It would also render every command to "choose" in the bible to be irrelevant. The choice would have already been made and out of our control.