Does the time exist?

I think that an issue is we are used to using the term "exist" in an ostensive fashion, ie you could point to it, or indicate is there to the senses or to some scientific apparatus. An ostensive definion of an apple would be to go to a grocer and show some one the apple basket full of apples. With some you can't do that, and the idea of a "momentary glimpse" or a "snapshot" is out of order.

I am casually thinking thay maybe time consciousness, the sense of the flow of a stretched ourt temporal mode of being - from the past through the present into the future - like a piece of chewing gum, pop!, and may be a fractal (self similar structure) of objective time.

GrimKingGrim said:

To me, time does not exist.

But it's a conceptual instrument (and a very important on at that) used to record progress. But in this world there is only what is, not what has been, or what will be. There is no trace of the me that existed 5 seconds before I click the post button. There is only me that exists right now in this moment as I read new posts.

Similar to math. Math doesn't exist either, but the concepts and systems of math has done so much for progress in this world. But there is no random 5's and 12's floating around to be examined and observed. No natural calculus operations just being born, but it's undeniable the power that math holds.

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I see it simularly :> but I see time as more of a faulty construct created by our brains, because we can remember previous positions of matter, it creates the illusion of time, but whats happening is were just acumilating memories, a clock doesn't tell time, it tells how much movement requires for a clock to go around once for a hour, or a day and so on.

There is no past, no future, just a ever present that changes, matter and energy and souls and what not moving around. everything works as we percieve, I just think were percieving wrong, that we have a eronious concept of whats happening around us.

lesliedellow said:

How can time be affected by the presence of (real) massive objects without itself being real?

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My theory, it's to do with the warping of space, when your closer to a massive object space is warped, and the distances between things are also warped. Lets say travelign 5 miles takes 10 minutes in empty space with near zero gravity, as you near a object, 5 miles still takes 10 minutes to the one traveling, but to one outside of the warped space it might take them 20 minutes to travel what to THEM appears to be 5 miles, but is actually 10 to the observer. the closer you are and the bigger the gravity and warping, the more space is condensed into a single stretch. to the one traveling distances don't change, but to someone outside it does, so to them it's taking longer.


Or something like that :> And don't ask for a study it's just my own pet thought I've been having.

029b10 said:

Since eternal describes the nature of living things which have no beginning of existence, then the serpent's logic that if they were made by the eternal God then they must be eternal since as written, a good tree brings forth good fruit and cannot bring forth evil fruit. So if the eternal does not have a beginning of existence, nor does it have an end of it existence, neither does it change its nature or form since it always was and will always be. Then how could they die if they were eternal beings made in the likeness and image of the eternal God.

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Good question. Just as Jesus illustrated that He had the choice to
serve the Father, so created beings also had that choice.
On this matter, it seems God is pro-choice.

loveofourlord said:

My theory, it's to do with the warping of space, when your closer to a massive object space is warped, and the distances between things are also warped. Lets say travelign 5 miles takes 10 minutes in empty space with near zero gravity, as you near a object, 5 miles still takes 10 minutes to the one traveling, but to one outside of the warped space it might take them 20 minutes to travel what to THEM appears to be 5 miles, but is actually 10 to the observer. the closer you are and the bigger the gravity and warping, the more space is condensed into a single stretch. to the one traveling distances don't change, but to someone outside it does, so to them it's taking longer. Or something like that :> And don't ask for a study it's just my own pet thought I've been having.

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Hoghead1 said:

More than one major school argued the world of time and change was just a big illusion.

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It seems to me the creation of matter out of nothing would have a big effect on what we would call time-dilation.

029b10 said:

Since eternal describes the nature of living things which have no beginning of existence, then the serpent's logic that if they were made by the eternal God then they must be eternal since as written, a good tree brings forth good fruit and cannot bring forth evil fruit. So if the eternal does not have a beginning of existence, nor does it have an end of it existence, neither does it change its nature or form since it always was and will always be. Then how could they die if they were eternal beings made in the likeness and image of the eternal God.

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Being made in the image of God does not mean we have all of the attributes of God. Obviously, eternality is one attribute we don't have, since humans have a beginning (but no ending).

029b10 said:

Since eternal describes the nature of living things which have no beginning of existence, then the serpent's logic that if they were made by the eternal God then they must be eternal since as written, a good tree brings forth good fruit and cannot bring forth evil fruit. So if the eternal does not have a beginning of existence, nor does it have an end of it existence, neither does it change its nature or form since it always was and will always be. Then how could they die if they were eternal beings made in the likeness and image of the eternal God.

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Well said. A systematic theology author once used parallel lines to make that same point. By it's very nature parallel lines can not cross, otherwise they would not be parallel. He used this argument to understand the immutability of God. Likewise it is an argument against an evolutionary argument that the universe is eternal. If it were, there can not be a Big Bang. I also use this argument against LDS doctrine of humans being eternal spirits. If that were true, then Adam could not have sinned in the first place and there would be no need for Christ's atonement.

Ana the Ist said:

Time is nothing without Morris Day.

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.......
"The Time":

http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-3.htm

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been Written
for the Time is nigh.

"Jerome, bring me my mirror"




.

I'm a little, Skywriter, about your conception of time. Adam and Eve are assumed to have been created, so they had no prior existence and therefore are not eternal. Did they live on after death? Difficult question. In the OT, the afterlife was Sheole, not some Heaven or Hell. In Sheole, the dead live on, but solely as a kind of sleepy being. Next, you claim the eternal cannot change. What is your evidence here? Granted classical theism argued that God does not change; however, many modern theologians have seriously challenged this view. I can go more into detail if you want. I know of no evolutionary argument that states the universe is eternal, as evolutionists tend to go with the Big Bang theory. However, for a number of reasons, I believe there was another universes before this one, an so on, ad infinitum.

loveofourlord said:

My theory, it's to do with the warping of space, when your closer to a massive object space is warped, and the distances between things are also warped. Lets say travelign 5 miles takes 10 minutes in empty space with near zero gravity, as you near a object, 5 miles still takes 10 minutes to the one traveling, but to one outside of the warped space it might take them 20 minutes to travel what to THEM appears to be 5 miles, but is actually 10 to the observer. the closer you are and the bigger the gravity and warping, the more space is condensed into a single stretch. to the one traveling distances don't change, but to someone outside it does, so to them it's taking longer.


Or something like that :> And don't ask for a study it's just my own pet thought I've been having.

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In other words, time dilation.

I beleive it (time) probably has to do with wave functions in quantum mechanics. But I am not a physicist.

If time is change, and change involves movement, according to Zeno the Greek presocratic philosopher, either X is moving where it is, or X is moving where it is not. Both options seem absurd at the classical level. A car can't be moving where it is, it would be parked. And it cant possibly be where it is not, so thats absurd too.

In quantum mechanics though there is the uncertainty principle relating to "conjugate variables". The more certain one is, the less certain the other is. The less certain is described by a wave function. Position is bound to momentum. The variable related to time is energy. The more we know of the systems energy, the less we know of its time (I think) etc. In relativity there is an energy-momentum relationship. So I am believeing that time is indirectly related to momentum, and therefore unto movement.

So, Zeno, hold on.

The car is parked. Snapshot! But time is frozen out. The car moves, and we have motion, but blurry picture of the physics involved.

So maybe, maybe, just maybe we know a systems energy at a classical level via the e=mc^2 equation, in Einsteins relativity. Uncertainty appears below a certain mass (philoshopical construct known as decoherence mass) and so classical level physics fades away, and uncertainties pop into being. But time and motion make more sense there, because of the blurred mature of reality. Not a snapshot, but a smugde in space and time.

The car of relativity travels on the back of (rides upon) the particles, and hence upon the conjugate variables of quantum uncertainty.

Just like, by analogy, the self concsious agent "rides on" the neurons of the brain. In some way the one (the self) is conscious, and the others (the neurons) are not. In some way the one is fixed (the snapshot of the racing car) and also it is not. But to get a true snapshot, wouldnt the shutter not open at all? And hence, not even allow the quantum reality inside?

Or at most for an infinitesimal time.

Yet then wed maybe get just one photon, and hence not the picture of the whole car we wanted to look at. Which picture would be built of an array of photons. "An array is a systematic arrangement of similar objects, usually in rows and columns." (wikipedia)




The universe is quantum-classical. And the agent is mind-brain.

Bipartisan:

representing, characterized by, or including members from two parties or factions (dictionary.com)

Modal:
of or relating to mode, manner, or form: (dictionary.com)


So I imagine that if we lived in the quantumm world the question would be not "Wierd, what is time?"

but "How can anyone claim - like in 'Zeno's philosophy, there be stable objects one could actually point at with precision?"

Just like we wonder "How can neurons become consicous" etc.


That seems even more wierd again. To get a fixed picture, the best we can do is one photon, but IIRC nothing is known about the temporal qualities of photons (or the best we have is "time stands still for a photon..."?)

So, if we have an array of photons, and a object seen, then time is actually presumed or implied fo that system or object.

Anyway. Lets call this bipartisan modality.

The universe is quantum-classical. And the agent is mind-brain.

The instamatic picture we have of the racing car is made from an temporal array of non-temporal photons...?

The moment depends on the eternal, and vive versa. The array depends on the photon etc. The universe barpartisan in modality. Eternity exists but only when the camera shutter is closed. Take a snapshot and you are implicitly within the 3-dimensions of space as we know it.

Bipartisan:

representing, characterized by, or including members from two parties or factions (dictionary.com)

Modal:
of or relating to mode, manner, or form: (dictionary.com)


So I imagine that if we actually lived in the quantumm world the question would be not "Wierd, what is time?"

but "How can anyone claim - like in 'Zeno's philosophy, there be stable 4 dimensional objects one could actually point at with precision?"

Its like a symmetry. theres a point in the hall of mirrors universe, if we zoom in enough, that the reflective properties disappear. And yet somehow the appearace depends on the disappearing too.

Just like we wonder "How can neurons become consicous" etc.

LittleLambofJesus said:

.......
"The Time":

http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-3.htm

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been Written
for the Time is nigh.

"Jerome, bring me my mirror"




.

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hahaaa love this!!!!

GrowingSmaller said:

I think that an issue is we are used to using the term "exist" in an ostensive fashion, ie you could point to it, or indicate is there to the senses or to some scientific apparatus. An ostensive definion of an apple would be to go to a grocer and show some one the apple basket full of apples. With some you can't do that, and the idea of a "momentary glimpse" or a "snapshot" is out of order.

I am casually thinking thay maybe time consciousness, the sense of the flow of a stretched ourt temporal mode of being - from the past through the present into the future - like a piece of chewing gum, pop!, and may be a fractal (self similar structure) of objective time.

Click to expand...

The Hebrews had an interesting concept of time.
I had a post on another thread concerning that:

ttp://www.christianforums.com/threads/st-paul-demonstrating-sola-scriptura-in-scripture.7625037/page-8#post-59597526

According to this site, the ancient Hebrews had a circular view of time, kinda like the hoola hoop...interesting

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/index.html
About the Ancient Hebrew Culture

Concepts in Time
Jeff A. Benner


The modern western mind views time as linear with a beginning and end. Whether you ascribe to the theory of evolution or creation, the timeline for planet earth is the same, a beginning and an end. The creationist views this span of time in the thousands of years with the beginning the creation of the earth by the hand of God and its destruction also by the hand of God. The evolutionist views this span in the billions of years with the beginning the creation of the earth through cataclysmic events and its destruction through another cataclysmic event.


Within this timeline both creationists and evolutions see the introduction and eventual destruction of mankind. The creationist sees a matter of days between the beginning and the introduction of man and days between the destruction of man and the end. The evolutionist sees billions of years between the beginning and the introduction of man and an unknown period of time between the destruction of man and the end.


The span of time between the introduction and destruction of mankind includes the advancement of man through the various ages. Again, the creationist and evolutionist ascribe different lengths of time between each segment, but agree on the degree of advancement.


Time spans of days and years can also be represented on a similar timeline with a beginning and end.



The Beginning and the End - Circular Time
Time is not linear it is circular. A clock is not a timeline but a circle for the simple reason that time does not begin or stop, it continues without beginning or end. In the same fashion days and years are also circular.


If the timeline above for the span of the earth and man is bent back onto itself we create a circle of time. With a circular view of time our perspective on the beginning and end of the earth and man change. No longer is the beginning the beginning and the end the end, but a continual cycle of beginnings and endings. While this view of time is contrary to our western way of thinking, it is consistent with other views from other cultures. The ancient Hebrews of the Bible and the people of the orient have always understood time, the past, present and future, as circular.


How many of these cycles, or eras, have existed in the earth and man's past? In the Biblical text there are actually five cycles.

1. 
   Genesis 1:1-2 suggests that something existed prior to Genesis 1:1.
2. The creation of Genesis 1:3 to the fall of man in Genesis 3.
3. From the expulsion of man from the Garden of Eden, to Genesis 6 and the Flood.
4. Genesis 10 with Noah and proceeding to beyond the modern time.
5. The "New Heavens and New Earth" as prophesied by the prophets.

In each of these cycles we see a common theme. The creation or restructuring of the earth, the advent of man who populates and advances on the earth, the eventual downfall of man through his evil inclination and the destruction of the earth.

Beyond these five we can speculate on previous eras of man based on physical, textual and geological evidence. Physical evidence of man's achievements have, on a limited basis, been preserved in the archeological record. Textual evidence, which has been handed down from generation to generation, has been preserved through oral and written accounts of man's history. Geological evidence is preserved within the earth providing us with catastrophic events that have restructured the earth on numerous occasions.


Without Beginning or End
From the viewpoint of both the creationist and the evolutionist the creation of matter occurred at some point in the distant past. But, could matter have simply existed with no beginning? Does space have a beginning point? To contemplate this question for any length of time can be taxing on the mind. To consider that the universe continues to infinity is a difficult concept to grasp as our western minds are trained to think of all things having a beginning and an end. With the concept of circular time understood, can this same circular view of time be applied to space as well? If you begin walking in a westerly direction in a straight line from where you are right now and continued walking (if that were actually possible) when would you reach the end? While you are walking in a straight line your distance from the center of the earth never changes and you wind up walking in a circle. Is it possible to go in a straight line in space? If you get into a space ship and travel in a straight line, will you eventually end up in the same space as you started? I cannot answer these questions but a circular view of space and time changes how one understands space and time.

If we can remember that the destruction and re-creation of each cycle of the earth is circular we can understand that any point on the circle is repeated over and over again. For instance, when man enters the Iron Age it is simply one point on the circle that is repeated time and time again. It is not the past, nor is it the future, it is the same point in time repeating itself. This continual rise and fall of man is the same concept as walking around the planet earth, one circle after the other but always coming back to the same point on the circle.


Circles upon circles
Both space and time exist as circles (Interestingly the Hebrew language uses the same words for space and time). Throughout the universe there are an infinite number of circles, some small and some large. The most obvious of these extremes are the orbits of atoms and solar systems. The repeating intervals of time, whether seconds or billions of years can also be represented by a circle.


There are other circles of time and space. We already mentioned the circular events of the day and year that continue over and over again. While our model above of the circular history of the earth and man are combined, they can be split into two separate cycles, the circular destruction and re-creation of the earth (eras of earth) and the circular rise and fall of mankind (eras of man). It is possible for several eras of man to exist within one era of the earth. The history of mankind is the interlacing circles of generations of people who live and die and nations that rise and fall time and time again. The earth circles the sun as the moon circles the earth. Entire solar systems rise and fall through creation and destruction.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7435928-7/#post54019121

The hoola hoop:









.

juvenissun said:

There are various inconsistent ways to measure time. Radioactive dating is only one of them. So, the 4.5 Ga is just one version of the age of the earth.

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As I have explained before: any error in that dating would err on the YOUNG side. But you consistently fail to counter that statement or even acknowledge that I have said it. What is the point of talking with you, if all you do is deny deny deny with no why why why?

PsychoSarah said:

As I have explained before: any error in that dating would err on the YOUNG side. But you consistently fail to counter that statement or even acknowledge that I have said it. What is the point of talking with you, if all you do is deny deny deny with no why why why?

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Do you mean the inaccuracy of radiometric dating is only significant when the age is young?
Or are you saying something about the time discrepancy in the Relativity?

Tina W said:

Think of time as like a language that we use to understand and make meaning of the things that are happening to us and around us. Time is how we understand things. Now think of another language that is used to understand things other than time. Before God created time as we understand it, there was another language or way of making sense of things but it's beyond our comprehension because our language is time. God can move and do things outside of that language. God can speak both languages God always existed and Heaven and angels existed outside our language of time. It's just beyond our comprehension because the only way we know how to measure things, understand things and make sense of the world or universe is through time. There is life outside time we just can't comprehend it yet, not till we go to the afterlife then we will be outside time too.

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Lol if it's beyond our comprehension...then why would you think it true?

It's a bit like saying...

"I don't know what this means...but it's true!"