Does The Sun Really Exist?

[super animator]

Even you can't see the sun that doesn't mean that you can't measure the effects of the sun. Just measure the difference in temperature change of a object by putting it outside at a sunny day and feel the heat change before and after you put it out.

 

[quilbilly]

Ya know, a lot of what we call "evidence" is just information our scientists thought us when we were young and they even showed us pictures from a book.

Can I get an example of evidence that was made up ? Ideas are made up. Evidence is not

 

[Tomk80]

Even you can't see the sun that doesn't mean that you can't measure the effects of the sun. Just measure the difference in temperature change of a object by putting it outside at a sunny day and feel the heat change before and after you put it out.

This whole thread is incredibly dumb. As has been pointed out multiple times now, the way we'd convince a blind person the sun exists, is by making use of his other senses. By devising instruments that allow the blind person to observe the sun using his or her other senses. Exactly the same way we know atoms exist, stars beyond our visible range exist, what the structure of DNA is, baryons and quarks exist, what viruses look like, etc etc.

Point being that we do not need to make direct observations to show things exist. Every idiot and his horse with even a casual knowledge of science is aware of this.

 

[Loudmouth]

The textured map is describing the Sun the blind man cannot see, just as the Bible is describing the God we cannot see.

The textured map is an empirical measurement. The Bible is not. That is the difference.

What the height of the pixel is describing is still subject to the blind man's interpretation.

Just as your observation of an image of the Sun is an interpretation. Both are empirical, which is the whole point.

As far as the blind man is concern, your CCD array may very well be a car battery.

Why?

I never said anything about “detect”. I said “prove” or “convince”.

So how were you convinced that radiowaves, which are not visible, actually do exist?

Raised pixels do not prove to the blind man that the sun was detected.

Why not?

All it proves to the blind man is that pixels of a textured map can be raised. He can then interpret those raised pixels however he likes.

Yes, just like pixels on a screen as an output from a telescope have to be interpretted. What is the difference? The scientists at the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory use CCD arrays in a telescope and then transfer that signal into pixels on a screen. How is that any different than transferring the data to raised pixels on a textured map?

Solar and Heliospheric Observatory Homepage

 

[Loudmouth]

Ya know, a lot of what we call "evidence" is just information our scientists thought us when we were young and they even showed us pictures from a book.

Only for those who refuse to do the actual science.

 

[Doveaman]

It tells you that there this direction is above you, that this direction is localized in a single point. In other words, you would identify a single point in the sky where the warmth eminates from. Which is what the sun eventually is, a single source of electromagnetic radiation in the sky. So yes, it tells you it is the sun.

Or maybe it’s a fire breathing dragon hovering in the sky.

That you are born blind does not mean you cannot observe anything. You can observe warmth, touch, sound etc. This means that by the use of instrumentation you are able to make further observations about the sun, the same way we do. We cannot see the magnetic fields eminating from the sun, except through instruments we have sent to the sun by satelite. We cannot see the spectral lines of the sun which tell us about the sun's composition unaided, we need a prisma to do that. By using instruments we can

Bear in mind I am a man born blind who cannot observe instruments and have to rely on others to explain them for me.

No, because the knowledge about the sun can be verified independently, even by a blind person.

Knowledge about God can be verified independently, too.

If the heat is generated by the sun, then the heat would be evidence of the sun.

If the universe is generated by God, then the universe would be evidence of God.

However, knowledge about the sun does not necessarily convince the blind man that the sun exists, just as knowledge about God does not convince you that God exists.

Ultimately, the blind man still has to rely on others to explain the source of his heat experience.

There can always be something wrong with our perception, regardless of whether we are blind or not.

No kidding.

But that there are things we have incorrect, does not mean that everything we know is incorrrect. So what we have to do is look at ways we can verify or falisify our knowledge.

Except when we ignore falsifying evidence because it is more lucrative to remain blind.

 

[Tomk80]

Or maybe it’s a fire breathing dragon hovering in the sky.

Then it would move around. Given that it doesn't, it isn't.

Bear in mind I am a man born blind who cannot observe instruments and have to rely on others to explain them for me.

Doesn't matter one bit. Blind people can do measurements, just as sighted people can, given the right equipment.

Knowledge about God can be verified independently, too.

Nope, it cannot.

If the heat is generated by the sun, then the heat would be evidence of the sun.

If the universe is generated by God, then the universe would be evidence of God.

However, knowledge about the sun does not necessarily convince the blind man that the sun exists, just as knowledge about God does not convince you that God exists.

Ultimately, the blind man still has to rely on others to explain the source of his heat experience.

You've got your reasoning backwards.

That the sun exists, or that God exists, is the thing that needs to be shown. If you want to convince others that the sun, or God, exists, you do that through observations that can be repeated and verified by others. Observations of heat, or detailed observations of the sun's electromagnetic spectrum, can be verified even by blind persons through the use of instrumentation.

Observations of God cannot be verified in the same way.

No kidding.
Except when we ignore falsifying evidence because it is more lucrative to remain blind.

You have not shown that falsifying evidence is ignored. The only thing you have shown so far in this thread, is that the concept of empirical evidence you have is false.

 

[Doveaman]

I see what you did there. But anyways, wouldn't that be a pretty certain way of convincing an intelligent person that god does not exist?

It probably would. That's why God is better able to relate to fools.

"Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential...But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong...so that no one may boast before Him. (1 Cor 1:26-29).

 

[Loudmouth]

Bear in mind I am a man born blind who cannot observe instruments and have to rely on others to explain them for me.

Just like you depend on others for explanations of how telescopes work. What is the difference?

Knowledge about God can be verified independently, too.

How so?

If the universe is generated by God, then the universe would be evidence of God.

If the universe is generated by invisible unicorns, then the universe would be evidence of invisible unicorns.

If the universe is generated by leprechauns, then the universe would be evidence of leprechauns.

Need I go on?

However, knowledge about the sun does not necessarily convince the blind man that the sun exists, just as knowledge about God does not convince you that God exists.

Right, it is the empirical and verifiable evidence that convinces anyone that the Sun exists.

Ultimately, the blind man still has to rely on others to explain the source of his heat experience.

No, he doesn't. He can obtain observations of the Sun all on his own just as you do for wavelengths of light that are invisible to your eyes.

Are you convinced that radiowaves exist even though you can not see them?

 

[Doveaman]

Even you can't see the sun that doesn't mean that you can't measure the effects of the sun.

And even if we can't see the Son that doesn't mean that we can't measure the effects of the Son.

Just measure the difference in temperature change of a object by putting it outside at a sunny day and feel the heat change before and after you put it out.

And we can also just measure the difference in behavioral change of a person by introducing them to the Son and experiencing their behavioral change before and after they meet the Son.

Before we meet the Son we are cold. After we meet the Son we become hot.

"Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (Matt 5:16).

 

[Loudmouth]

And even if we can't see the Son that doesn't mean that we can't measure the effects of the Son.
And we can also just measure the difference in behavioral change of a person by introducing them to the Son and experiencing their behavioral change before and after they meet the Son.

How did you determine that those behavioral changes are due to the Son?

 

[Tomk80]

And even if we can't see the Son that doesn't mean that we can't measure the effects of the Son.
And we can also just measure the difference in behavioral change of a person by introducing them to the Son and experiencing their behavioral change before and after they meet the Son.

I know some ecological studies. Apparently exposure to the Son increases porn consumption, risk of teen pregnancies and abortions and divorce.

I'll pass.

 

[Doveaman]

How did you determine that those behavioral changes are due to the Son?

How does the blind man determine that the object was heated by the sun?

 

[quilbilly]

How does the blind man determine that the object was heated by the sun?

The blind man could asked the sighted people about the sun and would get the same description. Asking about the son gets many different answers.

 

[Loudmouth]

How does the blind man determine that the object was heated by the sun?

Already explained in my previous posts.

How did you determine that radiowaves exist even though you can not see them?

 

[SkyWriting]

If I was born blind, how would you prove to me or convince me that the sun exist?

People blind from birth see things in their mind much as you do.
The inputs are different, but they get the general idea though
different paths.

That should mesh with your point ok.

 

[super animator]

And even if we can't see the Son that doesn't mean that we can't measure the effects of the Son.
And we can also just measure the difference in behavioral change of a person by introducing them to the Son and experiencing their behavioral change before and after they meet the Son.

Before we meet the Son we are cold. After we meet the Son we become hot.

"Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (Matt 5:16).

Sorry, your pathetic attempt to sound clever by playing the old switch around just makes you sound stupid.