Does the Pope Really Aprrove Spanking Children?

[Inkfingers]

If what you want the kid to learn is that dad is dangerous that would be a successful analogy.

The point is that pain teaches "No" quite effectively; especially in those who lack the capacity for to fully understand or reason their way to an answer.

Too many people today treat children like little adults; bowing to their demands and expecting them to understand as an adult can, but a child needs "simpler" until they are able to understand "complex".

A slap on the wrist does not mean "dad is dangerous".

 

[Fantine]

A priest commented on the Pope's words on MSNBC and said that they were meant for a worldwide audience. In most other countries of the world his words would be considered wildly progressive, even though, to Americans, they might seem out-of-character for Pope Francis.

"The Pope was urging moderation," the priest said. I agree.

 

[judechild]

The full text of the Pope's comments is now available here.

The relevant paragraph: A good father knows how to wait and knows how to forgive from the depths of his heart. Certainly, he also knows how to correct with firmness: he is not a weak father, submissive and sentimental. The father who knows how to correct without humiliating is the one who knows how to protect without sparing himself. Once I heard a father at a meeting on marriage say: “Sometimes I have to strike the children lightly... but never in the face so as not to humiliate them”. How beautiful! He has a sense of dignity. He must punish, but he does it in a just way, and moves on.

My alternative translation (my qualifications come from CILS - Certificazione di Italiano come Lingua Straniera - through the University of Siena):

A good father knows to wait and to pardon, from the depths of his heart. Certainly, he knows also to correct with a firm intention: he is not a father who is weak, lacking assertiveness, and sentimental. The father that knows how to correct without humiliation is the same that knows how to protect without sparing himself. One time, at a meeting of married-couples, I heard a father say "I sometimes must beat the children a little, but never in the face - so as not to humiliate them. How beautiful! He has a sense of [their] dignity. He must punish, do it in a just manner, and move on."

Commentary: "Io alcune volte devo picchiare..."

Picchiare usually denotes repeated action, rather than a single strike, so I believe it is better rendered beat: "Sometimes, I must beat..." The official translation renders it "stike," but more proper for a single battery - or for a figurative attack - would be colpire. (If referring to a situation in which a stronger classmate beats another, the verb most often used is picchiare). While picchiare could be rendered "spank", the context where the father refuses to hit the child in the face seems to denote a wider range than that concept.

picchiare un po’ i figli

The official translation has chosen to render un po as "lightly" which is in my opinion a mistranslation. Un po refers to quantity, not to quality, hence would seem to be better rendered a bit: "I beat the children a bit." If the pope intended lightly (quality, rather than quantity) it would be more intuitive to use either leggermente or dolcemente.

 

[Fantine]

Obviously the word "strike" was used in the translation instead of "beat" because the word "beat" in U.S. culture is associated with abuse--"wife beater" and "child beater" and "beating."

And so your use of the word "beat" in your translation does not take into account that the word "beat" carries much more severity in U.S. culture than your dictionary might indicate...

Anyone with a brain in his head would realize that Pope Francis would not condone "beating" in any way, shape, or form...as the way the word "beating" is construed in the United States.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

"Slight spank" is the translation I've seen. I don't see what the uproar is.

 

[judechild]

The fact of the matter is that "picchiare" is a rather severe word; as I said above colpire is more moderate, and there are several other words that could have been used which would denote single or less-militant action. (Again, picchiare is used to denote what would be translated "beat up" - as in playground violence; in any case, repeated-action is implied).

I provide a service, Fantine. I'm qualified to make these translations, and I live in the country where the language is spoken. You got a problem with the translations you learn the language, or find me someone who can challenge it, but the next time you feel like insulting those who have had a hemispherectomy I suggest sticking to a subject you either have at least some knowledge in, or talking with someone who doesn't speak a romance language.

I'd be interested to review that commentary you referred to, by the way.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Nit pick away. Anyone with a brain knows what the point is.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Spanking isn't inherently violent or abusive. It is very possible to correct with a spank without being angry, aggressive, or hateful. My parents spanked my brothers and I without anger. (Spanking wasn't as effective for me - putting me in my room without my books and toys was most effective).) They did not yell or look angry when spanking was concerned. They would tell us evenly, "If you do not stop behaving that way, you will receive a spank." And if we continued, we would get that spank, administered also evenly and without anger.

We were not traumatised and none of us report feeling terrified. It is perfectly possible to administer physical punishment without anger or traumatising your kid.

Most of my friends at work are non-caucasian immigrants or sons of immigrants. They all report physical punishment (usually from their mothers). I think the aversion to discipline might be a western caucasian thing.

Remember also that scripture mentions physical discipline as well.

Can it be abused? Definitely. Perhaps it is frequently abused.
Is it inherently abusive? No.

 

[judechild]

Nit pick away. Anyone with a brain knows what the point is.

Can't say I understand your problem. I provided an alternative translation in post 23, justified it, was criticized without any substantial justification, and replied to it. My goal on this tread is very simple: provide the groundwork of linguistic communication; I have not commented in the slightest on it except as regards the language itself (though it's true that all translation is interpretation). As for people with a brain, well, I suppose the brainiest among us might still appreciate a translation.

 

[ebia]

The point is that pain teaches "No" quite effectively;

No. It doesnt

 

[AvilaSurfer]

No. It doesnt

If you touch me and I break your finger, are you going to touch me again?

 

[ebia]

If you touch me and I break your finger, are you going to touch me again?

I'll make sure I use a stick if I want to.

 

[Fantine]

When I hear a speech, I draw my conclusions from my knowledge of the person speaking (in this case, a living saint), the visual cues I receive from his demeanor (gentle, kind, compassionate), and the words spoken.

Jude, can you honestly say that if you factor in your knowledge of Pope Francis' character, personality and demeanor you can seriously believe your translation is correct?

 

[ebia]

That's not what I said. The school doesn't use corporal punishment for academic failure because they couldn't possibly be sure of the reason -- whether there is a learning disability, lack of intelligence, or home dysfunction.

All of which would apply equally well to behaviour.

My father, on the other hand, OCCASIONALLY used corporal punishment as an incentive to cause me to buckle down and study -- which then produced the results he wanted -- good grades. Today some people prefer to bribe their kids with money if they get good grades. Both methods work.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek

Actually neither works very well in promoting learning. Grades are not the same as learning, it's a significant problem that eduction becomes a competition to get the best grades rather than a collaborative project to learn.
External motivation reduces intrinsic motivation; instead of promoting learning at best you enchance grades but in the medium to longer term you don't even achieve that.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

When I hear a speech, I draw my conclusions from my knowledge of the person speaking (in this case, a living saint), the visual cues I receive from his demeanor (gentle, kind, compassionate), and the words spoken.

Jude, can you honestly say that if you factor in your knowledge of Pope Francis' character, personality and demeanor you can seriously believe your translation is correct?

Agreed. It's a ridiculous twisting of every other translation I've seen.

 

[judechild]

Jude, can you honestly say that if you factor in your knowledge of Pope Francis' character, personality and demeanor you can seriously believe your translation is correct?

When was the last time you read a homily by the Pope, Fantine? For that matter, have you been following his general audiences on the family, including the one two weeks ago which was also on fathers, or have you only read part of this one?

The Pope has been talking about fathers who must not be absent; he clearly spoke against abuses ("At times in some homes authoritarianism reigned in the past, in some cases even oppression"). He's also been developing a theme of a relationship of un-equals between fathers and children: "So, in doubt, they abstain, they retreat and neglect their responsibilities, perhaps taking refuge in the unlikely relationship as 'equals' with their children." So, in the context of avoiding one extreme and the other, he related the story of a father who said "sometimes, I have to beat the children a little - but not in the face so as not to humiliate them." The Pope said that this strikes a certain balance between the autocratic and the absent: "He must punish, but he does it in a just way."

So yes, since I have to defend myself from your ideological-block; I actually agreed with your post that the Pope is insisting on moderation. But the word that was chosen is picchiare, and that means "to beat." It is a strong word; live with it.

And listen, why on Earth would you one minute be talking about the "global perspective" that Francis is taking, and then instantly forget that Americans are not the only Anglophones in the world? In your last post, you floundered some silliness about the word "beat" in American culture; what about British or South African culture? Can you insure that the word "strike" means the same there as it does in America (by the by, the people who do English translations for the Vatican.va website are British). When you hear an English word, do you always immediately assume that Americans are the target?

All in all, yes, I do believe my translation is correct. Now, either give me a real objection, or give me the name of the person who's told you what to think so I can talk with him or her.

It's a ridiculous twisting of every other translation I've seen.

I can tell you right now that "spank slightly" is absolutely inaccurate. As with Fantine, so with you: you got a problem with my translation, find me someone who can challenge it.

 

[Inkfingers]

No. It doesnt

If pain does not teach, why do you think our bodies register pain? It exists to warn us that what we are doing is dangerous, and to teach us not to do it again.

That is why hot things are painful to touch, and why we feel sick if we eat too much chocolate.

Liberals intellectualise the world too much. Children are far more physical creatures than adults because they have yet to gain the more sophisticated intellect; and so respond better to physical things than words. A hug means more to them than "I love you", and a slap means more to them than "No, don't do that".

 

[ebia]

If pain does not teach, why do you think our bodies register pain?

Immediate compliance.

Maybe your teaching isn't working because you aren't hitting me!

Why not try and experiment. Pick a skill you have that your friend does not. Take him outside and hit him until he has the skill. Let us know how many blows it took.

 

[Fantine]

I always remember when my mother-in-law, with whom I had an imperfect relationship (but no more imperfect than my husband did), hit my niece, telling her, "Don't hit your baby brother!"

In the years we spent together I'd usually learned to bite my tongue and inwardly roll my eyes, but this time I couldn't.

"You don't teach someone not to hit by hitting them," I said.

What she was showing my niece was that the strong and powerful can hit the small and defenseless as a way to exert control.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

I can tell you right now that "spank slightly" is absolutely inaccurate. As with Fantine, so with you: you got a problem with my translation, find me someone who can challenge it.

I think I'll stick with the Catholic sources I trust, over a message board poster. Good night now.