Does the Lutheran Church ordain women?

[The Liturgist]

Children are the next generation of Christians.

To get children back in church,
you need young women to bring their children to church.

To get young women back in church,
you need women priests.

The LCMS/LCC and WELS and other confessional Lutheran churches do have plenty of children attending. Indeed many of them continue to operate parochial schools. Indeed the LCMS parochial school which I went to decades ago is still in operation.

Thus I believe our Confessional Lutheran friends should not be pressured into conforming to what the ELCA or the NALC are doing, since the Confessional Lutherans have a target demographic and are bustling with youths. And we are talking about a solid mixture of younger and older children. It is a problem when one sees young children and then a precipitous drop off among older children, but the local LCMS parish has a number of adolescents.

For that matter, the ethnically predominantly Danish ELCA parish in Solvang, which is an English language parish but with a close affinity with the Church of Denmark, which has a presence in the United States, had a good number of youth the last time I was there in 2011.

 

[JM]

The LCMS/LCC and WELS and other confessional Lutheran churches do have plenty of children attending. Indeed many of them continue to operate parochial schools. Indeed the LCMS parochial school which I went to decades ago is still in operation.

Thus I believe our Confessional Lutheran friends should not be pressured into conforming to what the ELCA or the NALC are doing, since the Confessional Lutherans have a target demographic and are bustling with youths. And we are talking about a solid mixture of younger and older children. It is a problem when one sees young children and then a precipitous drop off among older children, but the local LCMS parish has a number of adolescents.

For that matter, the ethnically predominantly Danish ELCA parish in Solvang, which is an English language parish but with a close affinity with the Church of Denmark, which has a presence in the United States, had a good number of youth the last time I was there in 2011.

Revivalism draws more people, younger people, but what are they drawing them to? The church I left started with 23 people and now has 600, the turnover is high and most attending left other churches. They are Christians. The shiny aspects of modern, pietistic revivalism should not be imitated by traditional, confessional churches.

 

[The Liturgist]

Revivalism draws more people, younger people, but what are they drawing them to? The church I left started with 23 people and now has 600, the turnover is high and most attending left other churches. They are Christians. The shiny aspects of modern, pietistic revivalism should not be imitated by traditional, confessional churches.

Indeed, we are of one accord on this and on most other things. The exquisite beauty of the LCMS/LCC and their communion partners is the preservation of the apostolic tradition and its Lutheran liturgical expressions.

There is a superb local LCMS parish which I mentioned previously, right next to a church that leases space to the Syriac Orthodox.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Indeed, although I would argue that most of the reforms post Vatican II were not actually called for by Sacrosanctum Concilium. The revitalization of the permanent diaconate was one of the more successful moves.

Yes. Sacrosanctum Concilium has mostly been unimplemented and instead replaced with other wreckology stuff.

One thing that was desired by Vatican II but sadly not realized after the council was a revitalization of the Divine Office or the Liturgy of the Hours; a commendable effort was made to revamp this office to increase its use, but it did not work, I would argue, in most parishes, since there remains a superabundance of masses and a scarcity of the Hours. Where they are celebrated one is most likely to encounter Vespers in conjunction with various devotional services.

The council intended for it to become a thing of the people again but it didn't happen. We are at least 'one revision' away from that. Now, given the Vatican mess, it will have to wait for saner times before that can happen. But there are laity who have tried mightily to implement for themselves the Liturgy of the Hours. There are booklets like 'Magnificat' that are a daily guide to Morning and Evening and Night Prayer. The Liturgy of the Hours HAS made some small real advances among Catholic laity. Just not what was hoped for.

And, as we are in the Lutheran forum, I mention the Liturgy of the Hours as an ecumenical possibility. There is no barrier to a Catholic or groups of Catholics praying with Lutheran or Anglican or Orthodox their vespers. In fact way back in college I was almost just across the street from Concordia Seminary in St Louis. Aside from the tumult of their Seminex uprising, they did broadcast on their radio station the Vespers. That, and their classical programming, kept me tuned in. They were WAY ahead of Catholic radio in that regard.

Looking for the day when Catholics can make the Liturgy of the Hours work again. Enjoying that our other traditional friends are better able to make it work, though a tiny bit jealous. My wife and I do Night Prayer together.

 

[The Liturgist]

And, as we are in the Lutheran forum, I mention the Liturgy of the Hours as an ecumenical possibility. There is no barrier to a Catholic or groups of Catholics praying with Lutheran or Anglican or Orthodox their vespers.

Indeed this is true, from the Catholic side. Now that being said, not everyone will go for a joint celebration of the hours. Some Lutheran and Orthodox churches are more likely to be open to this than others. And I can’t fault those who won’t do it, because there is some controversy in the context of ecumenical discussions about how strictly the ancient canons should be applied given the present unusual situation. I would also lament to note that some doors in terms of a joint celebration of parts of the Divine Office (the Liturgy of the Hours) may well have been closed by Fiducia Supplicans.

However, there are some traditional Orthodox and Lutheran churches that would be willing I think to pray with groups of Catholics during the Liturgy of the Hours, and furthermore, if Catholics were to attend such services in a Lutheran or Orthodox church, they would be universally welcome, although I would expect that some effort might be invested in delicately inviting you to cross the Bosphorus or the Elbe (this seems the most appropriate river to associate with Lutheranism to me, unless someone has a better idea, given that the Elbe goes directly through Dresden, the historical capital of the Kingdom of Saxony, whose elector provided a safe haven for Martin Luther, and whose successors were the most Lutheran of the monarchs of Germany. Of course some might say that the Rhine is more appropriate due to its grandeur, but most of the Rhine passes through areas that are largely Catholic on both sides, in terms of the population distribution, so if one does cross the Rhine in Cologne, one would simply swim from one Roman Catholic bank to the other.

Also that would be a really harrowing swim considering the extreme amount of shipping traffic on the Rhine; I would worry about being run over by one of the many barges or passenger boats sailing the river. Indeed when I was in Cologne for the first time in 2000 they even had a hydroplane, which was extremely fast, and which was popular with business travellers, but that was its last year of service I think. Which is too bad, as I would have enjoyed traveling on it. The Elbe in Dresden is not as busy and I think one could safely swim across it without being run over by commercial navigation or potentially drowning in fuel oil.

Also even if one survives the shipping traffic on the Rhine, there is the pressing issue of the Rhinemaidens, who might attempt to drown you, and also Albericht, who might seek to rob you of your gold, as depicted in Wagner’s opera Das Rheingold, or in the case of Albericht’s son Haagen, to orchestrate a Byzantine plot for revenge upon your person involving brainwashing and adultery, as depicted in Wagner’s opera Gotterdamerung. So altogether the Rhine just does not seem worth it to swim across.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Indeed this is true, from the Catholic side. Now that being said, not everyone will go for a joint celebration of the hours. Some Lutheran and Orthodox churches are more likely to be open to this than others.

I forgot about that. Now I remember.

I would also lament to note that some doors in terms of a joint celebration of parts of the Divine Office (the Liturgy of the Hours) may well have been closed by Fiducia Supplicans.

Thank you so much pope Francis.

However, there are some traditional Orthodox and Lutheran churches that would be willing I think to pray with groups of Catholics during the Liturgy of the Hours, and furthermore, if Catholics were to attend such services in a Lutheran or Orthodox church, they would be universally welcome, although I would expect that some effort might be invested in delicately inviting you to cross the Bosphorus or the Elbe

There are days I might even welcome that. Again, thank you so much pope Francis.

(this seems the most appropriate river to associate with Lutheranism to me, unless someone has a better idea, given that the Elbe goes directly through Dresden, the historical capital of the Kingdom of Saxony, whose elector provided a safe haven for Martin Luther, and whose successors were the most Lutheran of the monarchs of Germany. Of course some might say that the Rhine is more appropriate due to its grandeur, but most of the Rhine passes through areas that are largely Catholic on both sides, in terms of the population distribution, so if one does cross the Rhine in Cologne, one would simply swim from one Roman Catholic bank to the other.

It seems that the Rhine flows into the Tiber, at least according to Wiltgen's book of that title about German theological influence at Vatican II. So that appears to be metaphorically taken. I think the Elbe may be a better named river for those becoming Lutheran. But come to think of it I have never heard use of a 'swimming the whatever river' analogy for those becoming Lutheran. Considering how many Lutherans are in Minnesota and Wisconsin it could also be any major river in those states.

 

[The Liturgist]

Considering how many Lutherans are in Minnesota and Wisconsin it could also be any major river in those states.

There are quite a large number in Southern California and the high deserts of Nevada, Utah and Arizona where I spend a great deal of time, but in this entire region the only river I would want to take a swim in is the Colorado, downriver of all of the dams, when it becomes a beautiful blue color due to the filtering effect of these dams. Unfortunately the water levels in Lake Mead have been sadly low of late.

But I will say the Elbe is spectacularly beautiful. I would argue that the Elbe should be the river of Lutheranism, and since this forum also caters to our Moravian friends, perhaps the Vtlava, also known as the Moldau, should be the river of the Unitas Fratrum.

 

[chevyontheriver]

There are quite a large number in Southern California ...

Solvang was impressive. I got there last winter. Being half Danish I felt I fit in, even if it was California.

Anyhow, I suppose I should let the Lutherans have their forum back. Thank you all.

 

[The Liturgist]

Solvang was impressive. I got there last winter. Being half Danish I felt I fit in, even if it was California.

Anyhow, I suppose I should let the Lutherans have their forum back. Thank you all.

Solvang is a beautiful town. I feel right at home there, being almost half Swedish. I suppose our Scandinavian heritage is a substantial part of our mutual affinity for our Lutheran brethren as well. I am also almost half German* (I am to a small extant Anglo-Scots/Irish like most Americans) so I suppose if I were to marry someone from the Baltic States I could win a sort of ethnic Lutheran trifecta.

*To a large extent from Saxony, from the area of Dresden and Leipzig, so I suppose I am biased in my advocacy of the Elbe as the ideal Lutheran river, although some of my ancestors also came from what is now Baden-Württemberg and some from Austria, so I suppose we could throw the Neckar and the beautiful blue Danube into the mix as well, although I believe in both cases these pass through predominantly Roman Catholic areas, whereas as one travels down the Rhine at least one enters into some Lutheran areas before winding up in the largely, but not entirely, historically Calvinist Netherlands.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Solvang is a beautiful town. I feel right at home there, being almost half Swedish. I suppose our Scandinavian heritage is a substantial part of our mutual affinity for our Lutheran brethren as well. I am also almost half German* (I am to a small extant Anglo-Scots/Irish like most Americans) so I suppose if I were to marry someone from the Baltic States I could win a sort of ethnic Lutheran trifecta.

*To a large extent from Saxony, from the area of Dresden and Leipzig, so I suppose I am biased in my advocacy of the Elbe as the ideal Lutheran river, although some of my ancestors also came from what is now Baden-Württemberg and some from Austria, so I suppose we could throw the Neckar and the beautiful blue Danube into the mix as well, although I believe in both cases these pass through predominantly Roman Catholic areas, whereas as one travels down the Rhine at least one enters into some Lutheran areas before winding up in the largely, but not entirely, historically Calvinist Netherlands.

My quarter German is Bavarian and thus Catholic. My quarter English was Methodist with some CoE distant relatives.

 

[Love365]

The LCMS/LCC and WELS and other confessional Lutheran churches do have plenty of children attending. Indeed many of them continue to operate parochial schools. Indeed the LCMS parochial school which I went to decades ago is still in operation.

Thus I believe our Confessional Lutheran friends should not be pressured into conforming to what the ELCA or the NALC are doing, since the Confessional Lutherans have a target demographic and are bustling with youths. And we are talking about a solid mixture of younger and older children. It is a problem when one sees young children and then a precipitous drop off among older children, but the local LCMS parish has a number of adolescents.

For that matter, the ethnically predominantly Danish ELCA parish in Solvang, which is an English language parish but with a close affinity with the Church of Denmark, which has a presence in the United States, had a good number of youth the last time I was there in 2011.

You go to church as a child
then you return to church when you have your own children.