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Does the Eocene-Oligocene Transition show Life after the Global Flood?

essentialsaltes

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Cookeroos and Kangaroos appear in Australia at roughly the same time - Late Oligocene.

Cookeroos are kangaroos. But they are extinct. They don't look like modern kangaroos.

And I gave reasons why I would not expect to find humans mixed in with the initial waves of animal migrations.

But they had to have lived somewhere on the face of the earth. That's where their bodies would be found. Kangaroos didn't leave any fossils behind during their trip to Australia from the Ark. They left their fossils where they lived in Australia. Wherever the humans were living, that's where their fossils would be, too.

"It is interesting that in groups as diverse as foramnifera, primates, whales, and birds, the Oligocene saw the diversification of recognizably modern taxa, whereas most of the Eocene forms are from prehistoric now-extinct groups."

It doesn't say modern species, it says modern taxa. Cookeroos are recognizably kangaroos, but they are not modern kangaroos. They are extinct. Similarly, the camellid ancestors of camels and llamas in the oligocene lived in North America, and they were not either camels or llamas. They are extinct forms.

Your hypothesis requires Noah to have brought lots of extinct animals onto the Ark, so they could later spread and evolve into their modern descendants. Again, this ramps up the rate of evolution from millions of years to thousands. The whole thing is silly.

The camellids had to leave the Ark to settle in North America. Some swam back to the Old World and turned into camels (or evolved into camels and swam back leaving no traces in North America), while others migrated south and turned into llamas. Within a few thousand years. This is evolution on steroids.
 
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Job 33:6

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Cookeroos are kangaroos. But they are extinct. They don't look like modern kangaroos.



But they had to have lived somewhere on the face of the earth. That's where their bodies would be found. Kangaroos didn't leave any fossils behind during their trip to Australia from the Ark. They left their fossils where they lived in Australia. Wherever the humans were living, that's where their fossils would be, too.



It doesn't say modern species, it says modern taxa. Cookeroos are recognizably kangaroos, but they are not modern kangaroos. They are extinct. Similarly, the camellid ancestors of camels and llamas in the oligocene lived in North America, and they were not either camels or llamas. They are extinct forms.

Your hypothesis requires Noah to have brought lots of extinct animals onto the Ark, so they could later spread and evolve into their modern descendants. Again, this ramps up the rate of evolution from millions of years to thousands. The whole thing is silly.

The camellids had to leave the Ark to settle in North America. Some swam back to the Old World and turned into camels (or evolved into camels and swam back leaving no traces in North America), while others migrated south and turned into llamas. Within a few thousand years. This is evolution on steroids.

This also begs the question of why so many lifeforms were taken onto the ark for the sake of saving their lives, if they were just going to go extinct immediately afterwards anyway (regarding those that did not super evolve, which went extinct).
 
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AV1611VET

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This also begs the question of why so many lifeforms were taken onto the ark for the sake of saving their lives, if they were just going to go extinct immediately afterwards anyway (regarding those that did not super evolve, which went extinct).
Perhaps they had a job to do before going extinct?

Like the T. Rexes going around eating the meat left behind?
 
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lifepsyop

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Cookeroos are kangaroos. But they are extinct. They don't look like modern kangaroos.

Species living today have been changed by thousands of years of genetic divergence and bottlenecking, as well as phenotypic responses to extreme shifts in environment. I would not necessarily expect any animal type to look exactly the same as it did when first leaving the Ark.



But they had to have lived somewhere on the face of the earth.

True. And I already explained why I expect humans to be clustered relatively close together instead of radiating out across the entire earth.



That's where their bodies would be found.

You need to think about what you're demanding. If you're putting forth a scientific standard necessitating fossil evidence of every creature that existed within the span of a couple thousand years, then your theory is in big trouble.

Remember, you can't even account for the burial sites of billions of humans over the last supposed 100,000 years... because their buried remains (not to mention their stone grave goods) "weren't preserved"... Don't you love how a ridiculous non-answer is perfectly fine when it's the evolutionary model on the line? I find it endlessly amusing.

Again... it's not unreasonable at all to expect a scarcity of human remains in an isolated region versus countless radiations of animals spreading across an unstable earth. We might even look at present day natural disasters for a clue, where animal casualties tend to be far higher than human ones.


Kangaroos didn't leave any fossils behind during their trip to Australia from the Ark.

Should they have? In evolution theory, animals can go millions of years without leaving fossil traces... sooo... I'm really having trouble with your hang-up of finding no fossils of a migration that may have been only centuries. Can you explain that a little better? Or is this just another case of applying an impossible standard that your own theory couldn't even begin to withstand?



They left their fossils where they lived in Australia.

And this is a problem, why? If Kangaroo fossils appeared elsewhere, and in deeper layers, you'd simply infer that Kangaroos evolved and migrated from other regions. Just like we might infer that those were their migration routes from the ark. Biogeography in either model is pretty ad-hoc in general, isn't it?

It doesn't say modern species, it says modern taxa. Cookeroos are recognizably kangaroos, but they are not modern kangaroos. They are extinct. Similarly, the camellid ancestors of camels and llamas in the oligocene lived in North America, and they were not either camels or llamas. They are extinct forms.

Already dealt with the Kangaroo example. As far as North America goes, it's a bit problematic as North America was a major coridoor for animals migrating from Europe or Asia via land bridges. In this case I'd imagine at least some overlap, where migrating animals may have met their fate on the same continents their ecological contemporaries were deposited during the flood.

This contrasts with more distant, isolated areas like Australia. It would be very weird if the flood only deposited Kangaroo remains in Australia, and then modern Kangaroos traveled only to that same spot. Not impossible but it would be an amazing coincidence. (Evolutionists are quite comfortable with amazing coincidences, btw) But I'm not proposing anything like that happened.


Your hypothesis requires Noah to have brought lots of extinct animals onto the Ark, so they could later spread and evolve into their modern descendants. Again, this ramps up the rate of evolution from millions of years to thousands. The whole thing is silly.

Your characterization is silly, yes. You also have a silly (yet popular) view of life where significant phenotypic changes can only be the result of millions of years of "evolution". It's difficult to fathom how distorted the average evolutionist's concept of biological change is because of this. And the disturbing thing is that you don't even recognize your own circle of confirmation bias.



The camellids had to leave the Ark to settle in North America. Some swam back to the Old World and turned into camels (or evolved into camels and swam back leaving no traces in North America), while others migrated south and turned into llamas.

Why do you propose camels would have to be swimming?

Why would they necessarily leave traces on a landmass they were migrating through for us to discover thousands of years later? What scientific principle are you referencing? Again this is REALLY weird coming from an evolutionist who accepts fossil gaps of many millions of years without blinking an eye. (And I doubt you'll actually address this blatant double standard I keep exposing)

That being said, it's also possible the early Eocene (or even Paleocene ) represents the very initial trickle of Ark migrations, and the Eocene-Oligocene represents the point when major radiations were underway.


Within a few thousand years. This is evolution on steroids.

No, it's biology minus wacky evolutionary science-fiction. The fact that Camels and Llamas can still produce healthy hybrids should tell you that they haven't changed that much.

On that note, it's kinda weird that you have animals, geographically separated for "millions of years" that are still able to successfully interbreed....

...and then in other cases, you have land animals "evolving" into fully aquatic whales in roughly the same amount of time... talk about silly.

I mean, do you ever just lean back and think about it? What you actually believe?

Indeed, one of us has a very silly concept of biological change, and I don't think it's me.
 
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lifepsyop

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This also begs the question of why so many lifeforms were taken onto the ark for the sake of saving their lives, if they were just going to go extinct immediately afterwards anyway

Just off the top of my head...
- Food sources for other animals,
- Competition that would stimulate more rapid and widespread migration,

I think God cared more about replenishing the earth with a thriving ecosystem, rather than saving individual types of animals. Just a guess.
 
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USincognito

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Did you have an argument? I'll wait...
I was afraid I was being too subtle.

There were millions of American bison. There were billions of passenger pigeons. Every year several million zebra and Wildebeest die along the way during the Great Migration.

Very few are just lying around waiting to fossilize. Fossilization is a very rare process for terrestrial tetrapods like humans. Also we tend to bury our dead (when we do so, many cultures don't) in soils that are acidic and dissolve bones rather than preserve them.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Species living today have been changed by thousands of years of genetic divergence and bottlenecking, as well as phenotypic responses to extreme shifts in environment. I would not necessarily expect any animal type to look exactly the same as it did when first leaving the Ark.

We are a species living today. Was Noah a Saadanius?

But this is crazy cakes. It means the Hebrews were not sacrificing sheep and oxen, but Microbunodons or something.

And yet archeological sites from around the world associated human activity with modern animal forms going back to prehistory. In association with humans, goats have always been goats. Obviously domestication and selective breeding has had notable effects, but nothing like wholesale origin of new species your idea requires.

No, it's biology minus wacky evolutionary science-fiction.

What biology? You are suggesting that descent with modification can change Oligocene animals into today's descendants over a few thousand years. You really do need to check out the 'cat' thread nearby. We know how genetics works. We know how distantly related certain species are. We know how closely related humans and other species are. If 'biology' can turn oligocene animals into today's animals, then what was Noah? How are humans immune from 'biology'?
 
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tas8831

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This also begs the question of why so many lifeforms were taken onto the ark for the sake of saving their lives, if they were just going to go extinct immediately afterwards anyway (regarding those that did not super evolve, which went extinct).
Well, creation science tells us that mutations are the result of the Fall of Man, a curse put on us for all eternity by the loving God, who also gave us mutation correcting enzymes, so...
 
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tas8831

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Within a few thousand years. This is evolution on steroids.
No, it's biology minus wacky evolutionary science-fiction.

Ok, then perhaps you can be the first ever creationist to provide an actual explanation, supported by evidence, for this requisite super-fast diversification leading to stable taxa over very, very short time-frames.
Many creationists have, for example, make similar declarations of this hyperevolution but when asked for the evidence, for the mechanism(s) by which this might happen, we get nothing. For crying out loud, we have mark kennedy desperately declaring that increasing human cranial volume by a couple standard deviations in a few million years is IMPOSSIBLE, but then allowing for hundred-fold expansions the numbers of taxa, and dramatic changes in size and proportion in all manner of taxa in a couple thousand years. And you want to accuse US of employing "wacky... science-fiction"?

Please provide your proposed mechanism - with evidence in its support - by which the 'Bat-Kind' on the ark gave rise to 1000+ species of bat in a few thousand years.

I will wait.
 
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lifepsyop

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I was afraid I was being too subtle.

There were millions of American bison. There were billions of passenger pigeons. Every year several million zebra and Wildebeest die along the way during the Great Migration.

Very few are just lying around waiting to fossilize. Fossilization is a very rare process for terrestrial tetrapods like humans. Also we tend to bury our dead (when we do so, many cultures don't) in soils that are acidic and dissolve bones rather than preserve them.

It's funny because the other evolutionist is demanding I produce a fossilization trail detailing a few centuries of animal migration. Of course, you're right that fossilization is rare and usually the result of sudden catastrophic burial. But it seems weird to compare the seeming randomness of fossilization with intentional burials.

It was also a common practice to be buried with 'grave goods', including stone and metal objects that are more resistant to decay than organic bodies.
Paleolithic religion - Wikipedia

These are billions of people living and dying and burying their dead over all those generations.
Where are they? Why aren't researchers tripping over paleolithic grave sites?

The acidic earth swallowed nearly every trace of them up? That's what you're going with?

(Oh, and on a sidenote, let's not forget.... original dinosaur protein can now supposedly be preserved for 65, 70, 80+ million years.)
 
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lifepsyop

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Ok, then perhaps you can be the first ever creationist to provide an actual explanation, supported by evidence, for this requisite super-fast diversification leading to stable taxa over very, very short time-frames.
Many creationists have, for example, make similar declarations of this hyperevolution but when asked for the evidence, for the mechanism(s) by which this might happen, we get nothing.

First comment on how species far-removed from each other for millions of years can still produce healthy offspring....

And also how a fully terrestrial mammal turns into a freaking fully aquatic whale in a comparable timeframe (less than 10m years)

Go ahead, tell me.... "Natural Selection Did It"... Let's all behold the stunning explanatory power of Evolution theory.

YEC's have plenty of problems to work out in their models, but you guys are the last ones who should be casting stones.
 
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USincognito

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It's funny because the other evolutionist is demanding I produce a fossilization trail detailing a few centuries of animal migration. Of course, you're right that fossilization is rare and usually the result of sudden catastrophic burial. But it seems weird to compare the seeming randomness of fossilization with intentional burials.

There's a big difference between asking for evidence supporting Post-flood migration claims and asking why every human being on earth isn't interred in a Western style grave.

It was also a common practice to be buried with 'grave goods', including stone and metal objects that are more resistant to decay than organic bodies.
Paleolithic religion - Wikipedia

Yeah, for those that had such objects. Most people in the Paleolithic didn't have much beyond the clothes on their backs.

These are billions of people living and dying and burying their dead over all those generations.
Where are they? Why aren't researchers tripping over paleolithic grave sites?

Because their hasn't been billions until the 20th century and it has been explained to you.
- not every culture buries their dead
- not every culture buries them like Europeans do
- many that are buried in forest or jungle soils are dissolved rather than preserved

The acidic earth swallowed nearly every trace of them up? That's what you're going with?

Yeah, because I have looked into the subject. Acidic soils are not conducive to preservation.

(Oh, and on a sidenote, let's not forget.... original dinosaur protein can now supposedly be preserved for 65, 70, 80+ million years.)

Yep, have you read anything about it from scientists or just from Creationists?
 
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Job 33:6

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Just off the top of my head...
- Food sources for other animals,
- Competition that would stimulate more rapid and widespread migration,

I think God cared more about replenishing the earth with a thriving ecosystem, rather than saving individual types of animals. Just a guess.

Everything in young earth creationism is just a guess.
 
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Ophiolite

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YEC's have plenty of problems to work out in their models, but you guys are the last ones who should be casting stones.
Given that it is the stones that contain the fossils that, despite creationist whining, are one of the best independent lines of evidence for evolution, we should continue to cast stones. At least until they knock some sense into a senseless opposition.
 
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lifepsyop

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Given that it is the stones that contain the fossils that, despite creationist whining, are one of the best independent lines of evidence for evolution, we should continue to cast stones. At least until they knock some sense into a senseless opposition.

Ah yes, fossils... the remains of billions of creatures all over the world that were suddenly buried. Who could have predicted such a thing?

And I don't mind being called "senseless" but it certainly is amusing coming from people who believe time and happy accidents can turn stardust into people.
 
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USincognito

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Ah yes, fossils... the remains of billions of creatures all over the world that were suddenly buried.

Most of those billions are marine invertebrates and they weren't "suddenly" buried. There are also fossils found in eolian deposits and one that were slowly buried in anoxic environments. We also find shadow fossils in metamorphic rock. None of these things are possible in, much less explained by the Flood.

...people who believe time and happy accidents can turn stardust into people.

No one here "believes" any such thing. If one cannot argue without resorting to straw men then one has already failed to make a point.

First comment on how species far-removed from each other for millions of years can still produce healthy offspring....

Examples?

And also how a fully terrestrial mammal turns into a freaking fully aquatic whale in a comparable timeframe (less than 10m years)

Go ahead, tell me.... "Natural Selection Did It"... Let's all behold the stunning explanatory power of Evolution theory.

Why do Creationists pretend that mutation is not the driver of evolution? And I'd suggest reading up on the genetic evidence we have for cetacean evolution. There's quite a bit of it.
Loss of hind limbs
Developmental basis for hind-limb loss in dolphins and origin of the cetacean bodyplan
Development of flippers
Adaptive evolution of 5'HoxD genes in the origin and diversification of the cetacean flipper. - PubMed - NCBI
Changes to olfactory system
Aquatic adaptation and the evolution of smell and taste in whales
 
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lifepsyop

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Most of those billions are marine invertebrates and they weren't "suddenly" buried.

That's an interesting point of view... What about the marine and terrestrial vertebrates? Any dominant pattern there for conditions that enabled fossilization?

No one here "believes" any such thing. If one cannot argue without resorting to straw men then one has already failed to make a point.

lol

“The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them in their cores and exploded these enriched ingredients across our galaxy, billions of years ago. For this reason, we are biologically connected to every other living thing in the world. We are chemically connected to all molecules on Earth. And we are atomically connected to all atoms in the universe. We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”

― Neil deGrasse Tyson

Straight from your own high priest.... so please tell me again how none of you believe that you came from stardust....

You do believe that... you just hate it being brought up by someone you want to target as having a foolish worldview.

I've found that reminding an evolutionist what they actually believe is a good way to keep them humble.


Examples?

Big cats in the Americas and Eurasia/Africa have been geographically separated for "millions of years" yet can still produce viable offspring. Other similarly split mammal groups can do the same if I recall.

It is incredibly weird that in one case, these distantly separated animals seem virtually unphased by millions of years of varying selection pressures (to the point where they can still produce healthy young with each other), whereas in comparable timeframes (a few million years), a wolf-like creature can wander too far into the shallows and end up turning into whale. It's an utterly goofy view of nature.


Why do Creationists pretend that mutation is not the driver of evolution?

Why do evolutionists pretend that mutations are forward-thinking and that natural selection is a magical creative force?


And I'd suggest reading up on the genetic evidence we have for cetacean evolution. There's quite a bit of it.
Loss of hind limbs
Developmental basis for hind-limb loss in dolphins and origin of the cetacean bodyplan
Development of flippers
Adaptive evolution of 5'HoxD genes in the origin and diversification of the cetacean flipper. - PubMed - NCBI
Changes to olfactory system
Aquatic adaptation and the evolution of smell and taste in whales

Almost like the whale was designed based off of a mammal body plan? Weird.
 
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lifepsyop

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Yep, have you read anything about it from scientists or just from Creationists?

Yea I remember back several years ago when the "scientists" were laughing at dinosaur preservation claims, claiming that it had to be foreign bacteria that contaminated the fossils, because nobody in their right mind believes protein can last for 70 million years.

But when the alternative is questioning your religion of deep-time.... then, well, proteins can last a billion years if you need them to. Reason be damned.
 
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