Does the end justify the means?

[A New Dawn]

I guess this would mostly be an issue in America, but I wouldn't mind hearing anyone else's opinion.

The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC), which nobody but themselves considers Christian, routinely protests and pickets funerals of war heroes, events they deem to be unChristian, as well as other churches. They also have an online hate site, at least, until recently. Recently the site was hacked into and has not been online for a while. (link to article)

My question is, while we all secretly thank whoever did this (at least, I do), was it an ethical action since, here in the US, this action violates their freedom of speech. As much as I hated hearing the hate, and seeing the war heroes' funerals picketed by the very people they died to give that freedom to, how does this bode for Americans, in general? Will there be unseen repercussions from this action?

 

[yasic]

I guess this would mostly be an issue in America, but I wouldn't mind hearing anyone else's opinion.

The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC), which nobody but themselves considers Christian

I consider them Christian as do many other people I know (both Christian and non-Christian alike). On what basis would you not consider them Christian?

[They] routinely protests and pickets funerals of war heroes, events they deem to be unChristian, as well as other churches. They also have an online hate site, at least, until recently. Recently the site was hacked into and has not been online for a while. (link to article)

My question is, while we all secretly thank whoever did this (at least, I do), was it an ethical action since, here in the US, this action violates their freedom of speech. As much as I hated hearing the hate, and seeing the war heroes' funerals picketed by the very people they died to give that freedom to, how does this bode for Americans, in general? Will there be unseen repercussions from this action?

I neither thank the people who did this nor do I consider it ethical. I consider the freedom of speech to almost be sacred as I feel it is crucial and necessary for our society to develop in a manner that leads to the least suffering and greatest gain for those involved. Violating the said freedoms seems almost to be against the very stated desires of those who claimed credit for the attacks.

 

[Ukrainia]

I don't agree that this was a good action by the hackers. The great thing about a democracy is that we have a marketplace of ideas where anyone can put in their two cents. Westboro Baptist - as wrong as they may be - have that same right. If the hackers wanted to do something more valuable with their time, they should have gotten their own views out, not taken away the rights of someone else. Actually, I would suggest that the best argument against Westboro Baptist is Westboro Baptist themselves. And hacking into their website might actually make them seem like the victims for once. So, all around, I think it's just a massively stupid thing for the hackers to do.

 

[cbradley]

A friend of mine was actually going on about this event the other day. I don't agree with most of what she said, but she did make some interesting points that I have to agree are logical.

The first point that she made was this: while, indeed, the freedom of speech is a constitutionally protected right, hate speech is not always. Hate speech is "any communication that disparages a person or a group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual orientation" (Wikipedia). Hate speech is generally just as protected as any other expression of opinions, except for when it becomes a hate crime or harrassment. In the case of employment, any legally protected group can follow legal retaliation.

The second point that she made was that hacking into the website was just as much a protected expression of opinion as the original content.

To me, yes it's wrong for somebody to destroy another's work based off of somebody's personal opinion; there are legal channels one could go through, after all. But even in the bible, people broke some laws in order to set things right; and I truly believe that the Westboro website is/was no better than a hate rally just before a lynching, and thus should be brought down by any ethical means.

 

[Protocol11]

Freedom of speech means freedom from government reprisal for that speech. Doesn't mean I can't take legal or illegal actions to shut you up. Course illegal actions mean I can be prosecuted for my crimes, even if done out of good heart and just reason.

Personally, I will celebrate the day Phelps dies, and the only sadness I'll feel is that the rest of his perverted congregation didn't follow him off a cliff, or into a river, or plane, ect, ect. But I do enjoy seeing evil, vile, disgusting, nasty, degenerate, pieces of garbage die and leave this world.

But if you really want to ask the question, ask it like this:

Hitler is in an orphanage making good PR in '42. You're just a Jew that got away, and got a bomb and magically has his travel plans. With his security, the only way to take him out is to plant the bomb in the orphanage and kill a good hundred kids along with him.

Do you kids a hundreds innocent kids to kill a man who's butchered tens of millions already, and many more millions to come, or not?

Which is more evil? An act of evil, or inaction?

Think I'll start a topic on this.

 

[A New Dawn]

Freedom of speech means freedom from government reprisal for that speech. Doesn't mean I can't take legal or illegal actions to shut you up. Course illegal actions mean I can be prosecuted for my crimes, even if done out of good heart and just reason.

Personally, I will celebrate the day Phelps dies, and the only sadness I'll feel is that the rest of his perverted congregation didn't follow him off a cliff, or into a river, or plane, ect, ect. But I do enjoy seeing evil, vile, disgusting, nasty, degenerate, pieces of garbage die and leave this world.

But if you really want to ask the question, ask it like this:

Hitler is in an orphanage making good PR in '42. You're just a Jew that got away, and got a bomb and magically has his travel plans. With his security, the only way to take him out is to plant the bomb in the orphanage and kill a good hundred kids along with him.

Do you kids a hundreds innocent kids to kill a man who's butchered tens of millions already, and many more millions to come, or not?

Which is more evil? An act of evil, or inaction?

Think I'll start a topic on this.

Pretty early for a Godwin post, but .......... OK.

We see lots of hate speech (and even some not so hateful) being penalized by the courts, would not this be a better route than doing something illegal?

 

[analogtube]

"Personally, I will celebrate the day Phelps dies, and the only sadness I'll feel is that the rest of his perverted congregation didn't follow him off a cliff, or into a river, or plane, ect, ect. But I do enjoy seeing evil, vile, disgusting, nasty, degenerate, pieces of garbage die and leave this world."

And what makes Protocol11 different from Phelps? Not a damn thing.

 

[JustMeSee]

I generally see the WBC as a clan that are currently pretty insignificant. Laws should be enacted to keep them at a reasonable distance from funerals. They should be allowed to have their circus show non-funeral protests. The counter-protests are fun events.

I don't know what kind of traffic their website received from people other than themselves and people looking to form counter-protests.

My fear is that one of the WBC loons may eventually step beyond just words into violence.

 

[JadeTigress]

I don't think it was wrong of the Anons at all, considering they declined war more than once, and were civil about it. Phelps continued to goad them; so really she did it to herself.

Just my opinion, though.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I'm in favor of free speech and against legal bans on "hate speech", but I don't think that free speech includes the right to be disruptive of funeral services.

The protestors should have a right to stage public protests and make their views heard, but not at the expense of legally conducted funerals. I would increase the legal (or temporal) distance that protesting make take place from funerals quite a bit.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[kiwimac]

Anon only hacked the Westboro website after a: Westboro attacked them first with a false Anon notice and B: then refused to simply let sleeping dogs lie and attack anon again. Some actions have consequences.

 

[Protocol11]

And what makes Protocol11 different from Phelps? Not a damn thing.

Except that I'm not out picketing funerals, for one...

That you would equate me with that slimeball because I have some strong opinions shows how seriously warped your value system is. I suppose you'll equate me to Kadafi next when I say that I'll take equal enjoyment from seeing him die.

 

[analogtube]

"But I do enjoy seeing evil, vile, disgusting, nasty, degenerate, pieces of garbage die and leave this world. "

Your value system is non-existent. You will enjoy seeing people die you say. If that is the case, you are one sick individual. And yes, if you would truly enjoy seeing Kadafi die, you are no better than he. People that enjoy death, that enjoy seeing people die, should be institutionalized.

 

[JadeTigress]

"But I do enjoy seeing evil, vile, disgusting, nasty, degenerate, pieces of garbage die and leave this world. "

Your value system is non-existent. You will enjoy seeing people die you say. If that is the case, you are one sick individual. And yes, if you would truly enjoy seeing Kadafi die, you are no better than he. People that enjoy death, that enjoy seeing people die, should be institutionalized.

I guess you can institutionalize me, too. I'll be damn glad when Phelps kicks the bucket.

 

[analogtube]

OK. You and the rest of the people like you can get together and have a party to celebrate the deaths of those whom you hate. What the hell, have a good time.

Phelps is despicable, but people like you are no different. He screams "God hates [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]", you want to revel in his death and celebrate.

My apologies to any gay folks reading this, you don't deserve the name calling, just quoting a misguided man.

 

[sharkiemcgee]

...which nobody but themselves considers Christian

...while we all secretly thank whoever did this

Wow. You must be a pretty smart person to know exactly what everyone in the entire world thinks! In my opinion, the W.B.C. has just as much right to call themselves a Christian church as any other "Christian" church out there. I am a homosexual man, so of course I do not agree with a lot of the things they believe and do, but I am a strong supporter of freedom of speech. Since hacking is an illegal activity, I believe it was wrong and unethical of whoever did it. I'm not heartbroken over it, though, I must admit.

 

[A New Dawn]

Wow. You must be a pretty smart person to know exactly what everyone in the entire world thinks! In my opinion, the W.B.C. has just as much right to call themselves a Christian church as any other "Christian" church out there. I am a homosexual man, so of course I do not agree with a lot of the things they believe and do, but I am a strong supporter of freedom of speech. Since hacking is an illegal activity, I believe it was wrong and unethical of whoever did it. I'm not heartbroken over it, though, I must admit.

Yeah, I don't know what the whole world thinks, but I do know, from quite a bit of reading, that lots and lots of people don't agree with them (either their beliefs and/or the way they live out their "faith"). I believe that the SBC doesn't sanction them, even though they claim to be Southern Baptist, so I must not be alone in the way I think. What I believe on the subject is that anyone has the right to be called what they want. If they want other people to believe the same way about them that they believe about themselves, their fruits would show it. Unfortunately, their actions do not bear Christian fruit. That is all I'm saying.

Anyway, most of what I said was said in a blog I read about it, and I was just agreeing and paraphrasing it.