Does the Doctrine of Hell and ECT Hold up to Scrutiny?

Der Alte · Jul 27, 2020

DamianWarS said:
The bible does not confirm these details. Biblical authority does not show us layers of hades, you are getting trapped with sources linked back to enoch or worse dante's inferno. Gehenna is not without doubt linked to the lake of fire. Contary to popular belief we know very little as to what hell looks like but you seem to want to base your views of the place from extra biblical sources.
The account of Lazarus is a parable, "Abraham's bosom" is indeed a place, that place is next to Abraham (at his bosom) but it is not a name of a layer of hades which has absolutely no scripture backing. Lazarus is shown as a true son of Abraham and only a true son is worthy to have the embrace of Abraham at his bosom which is the point. The rich man conversely is rejected as a son of Abraham and is in torment. The text is deliberately flipping the expectation and even not naming the rich man but naming Lazarus is at the expense of the rich man. The text also foreshadows Christ's own death and subsequent resurrection (not to mention Christ only spoke to the crowds in parables). It is exactly what a parable should look like.
Hades/heaven are spiritual places yet the text shows us vivid concrete images but how does this cross from physical to spiritual? Is there spiritual fire, a spiritual chasm, a spiritual bosom? Are these things felt or seen? The purpose of the text is not to show us what hell looks like and it's use of imagery are parallels for things we can only understand through the physical so it uses the physical to communicate these abstract qualities but we shouldn't be so bound by these images.

I certainly appreciate you sharing your unsupported opinion with me. You have not provided any evidence to support anything you said. I doubt very seriously that the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, which I quoted, consulted the OT book of Enoch when they translated the Greek EOB.
…..The word “parable” is from the Greek word “παραβολή/parabole” which means to place or throw beside, to clarify/explain something unknown by comparing it to something known. All of the unquestioned “parables” have this comparison.
Jesus identified 5 parables as such. Others identified 26 parables as such.
…..The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the format of a parable there is no worldly situation which was or can be likened to heaven. There was no comparison.
It is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
…..None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
…..All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,””a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people “Lazarus,” otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the Lazarus and the rich man account considered it to be factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
•Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

Zao is life · Jul 27, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny?

Most folks listen to their priest/preacher/minister and also read their Bibles, and most of the time they hear or see “Hell” mentioned, and accept it as a given, in a prima facie sense. I ask you, however, is it so? Does this word and concept belong in the Bible? Does it really belong in t,he theology of so many churches? Let’s dig down into the “infernum” of our subject, “infernum” simply meaning originally that which is below...or simply underground.

The witness of the creation accounts

In Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, is the basic Biblical story of the creation of the cosmos and everything in it. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” as we read in Genesis 1:1. Note that there is no mention of God also creating hell. Chapter 1 goes on to state six times that the creation was good, the last time VERY good. The existence of hell would have made it less good, but then, that was before the Fall, so it may not apply. If God made it later, it is not mentioned anywhere, but don’t believe me – examine this list of scriptures mentioning creation:

Exodus 20:11

Isaiah 40:26

Isaiah 45:7-8, 18

Mark 10:6

John 1:1-5

Romans 1:20,25

Romans 8:19-22

I Corinthians 8:6

II Corinthians 5:17

Ephesians 2:10

Colossians 1:16-17, 20

Hebrews 11:3

Revelation 4:11

In Isaiah 45:7 we see a mention of light and darkness, but this is not a hint of hell, if someone were hoping so, for darkness is simply where the light has yet to penetrate.

So, hell appears to be uncreated, but there is more.

The witness of the translated terms

We will find the origin of hell presently, but first let’s look at the words and terms it was translated from.

1. Sheol

“Sheol” is is from the Hebrew, and generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. It is translated in the KJV and probably other translations into one of three words: grave, pit (about half) or hell (about half). Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate “sheol” into three words, as the translators have done. They could have very well let “sheol” stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. I suppose they needed some support for the hell doctrine in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-rendered-as-hell, there is so very little to go that way.

I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for “sheol” to be rendered as “grave” or “pit” when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses in the “hell” list mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent.

Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were translated in one way or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I’m sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, “…he bringeth down to hell…”, but what would they have done with the following, “…and bringeth up.”? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the “grave/pit” half.

We have the same problem in reverse, in the “hell” half.Splatter Pak PsalmSplatter Pak 16:10’s “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…,” should have been given over to the “grave/pit” camp, thus avoiding the ban on exit from hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We see it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.

2. Hades

“Hades” is the best Greek eqivalent for the Hebrew term “sheol.” However, it is a pagan word from a pagan culture, and thus, brought in some unfortunate theological baggage. It is translated as “hell” consistently in most Bibles, except for one instance. I wondered if it were a matter of context, so I examined all eleven instances of the word, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to hell is not too much to swallow. The one time when “hades” was rendered as “grave,” was in I Corinthians 15:55. Now context might have allowed, but Paul’s taunt of, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” follows after Hosea 13:14 – “O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction…”. If either were rendered as “hell,” it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction.

The last two instances of “hades” to “hell” are in the Revelation, 20:13-14. “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – “hades,” in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what my Bible’s references suggest. The translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – hell delivering up its dead, and hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine. Using “grave” or “sheol” would have cleared up the problems.

3. Gehenna

“Gehenna” is used in the Bible some twelve times, depending on the version, and refers to a physical place in the real world that you can visit today. In the OT, it was the “Valley of the Sons of Hinnom,” where children were sacrificed to idols. The form we read in the NT is a Greek transliteration. Now since it is a place in the real world, a fact no one can dispute, I believe its translation as “hell” is NOT justified.

4. Tartarus

This is yet another pagan word from a pagan culture, and only used once, in II Peter 2:4. For the Greeks, it was a prison for the Titans and some people - to Peter, it was a prison for some spirit beings. Should we really hang a doctrine on the single use of a term?

Further, if these four terms were NOT translated as ”hell,” would any of us have suspected such a place, such an outcome? If we take the Bible at face value, how do we explain God failing to tell us that He made the place? How we view God’s sketchy warnings – why did He warn Adam and Eve of only death...if hell were a real place? The warnings He gave to many after that follow the same pattern: simple death was the only listed outcome.

So, examination of the four underlying words translated to “hell” fails to support the concept, especially as two of them are pagan terms. So let’s move on to...

The witness of paganism

You the reader may be wondering something like “What the hell?” and I fully sympathize. Where did this word “hell” come from, anyway? Happily, we have some bread crumbs. Not only do we have the help of our Bible’s marginal references, telling us to “see sheol,” “see hades,” “see gehenna,” and “see tartarus” - we have the following:

1. I have an Oxford English Dictionary, and it lists the year in which a word first appears in the English language. For “hell” that year is about 825 AD. In that period, Norse and Danes were pouring into the eastern part of Britain, and the Danelaw resulted. New Nordic words were coming into use as well as Nordic rule, and “hel” was one such word. Here’s a sampling from related languages:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic – halja

It’s useful to know that the original meaning of such words was “to hide, to cover” used as verbs, and “hidden, covered” used as adjectives – a reference to the grave, but not to the common understanding of hell. We pick up breadcrumbs in the 1611 KJV, where we see “hell,” and also “hel,” used twice. We see “hel” a lot more in “Beowulf,” which was written in Old English – in fact, it was the Anglo-Saxon language, spoken also on the continent. Under the baptized veneer of the story is a pagan subtext, and the Angles and Saxons were pagans if you go very far back in time. Note in the list above that Old Norse shared “hel” with Old English/Anglo Saxon, so maybe that breadcrumb could lead to something in the culture of Old Norway.

In Norse mythology, we find paydirt – the Norse believed that if you did not rate going to Valhalla when you died, you would spend th,e afterlife in Helheim, or “House of Hel.” Hel was the ruler of Helheim, they thought, and was thought to be a goddess or ogress, and very ugly.

2. Have you ever seen a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist hell? It is all too familiar: fire, demons and the suffering damned in scenes of torture and misery. The Islamic hell is much like it, but less inventive. Some other religions have a hell, and some don’t.

The witness of helling

As I said, “hell” is a verb, as well as a noun, and is derived from an old Germanic word, meaning, “to hide or cover.” My father told me about this years ago – if a farmer lacked a root cellar or a cellar/basement under the house, and needed a place to keep veggies or fruits over the winter, he would do the following. First, he would dig a pit or trench deeper than the local frost line. Then, he would line the bottom with straw. On top of that, he’d place a layer of, say, potatoes. More straw went on top of the potatoes, and he would finish the job by shovelling in the dirt previously dug out. Note – it is called “helling the potatoes.” Going to Hell, then, just means going into the ground...or the grave.

The witness of truth

So – having tracked hell down to its likely source in pagan mythology/religion, what should we believe? God has some cheery news for us: the Jubilee. Every 49 years, at a set time, everyone who had fallen into slavery was freed, and had land and possessions returned – see Leviticus 25:8-13. Are you mired in sin? Aren’t we all? The Bible tells us to resist sin, the flesh, the adversary...but so few seem to overcome in this life. However, do not despair – the same Book has the solution: Romans 6:7, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

This is our Jubilee – after a lifetime as slaves to sin, we are freed! How do we know we are all saved? First Corinthians 15:28 tells us, “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” Yes, “all” in this verse really means ALL – you, me and everyone! Jesus the Christ really is the Savior of the World, in fact, of the entire created Cosmos. I need to add that the Lake of Fire is not Hell, and is not ID’d as Hell in the Revelation. After a long word study on “fire” in the Bibe, which is beyond the scope of this short essay, I concluded that all mentions of fire in the Bible are either natural fire or a manifestation of God, or as I like to call it, Godfire. Therefore, I am compelled to see the Lake of Fire as Godfire, which is both punitive, corrective and transformatinal. I will leave you with First Corinthians 3:15 - “ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

Totally relevant post. The Greek translation of the Old Testament which existed in Christ's day, the Septuaginta, translates the Hebrew word sheol as "hades" every time, and every time we see the word "hell" in the English Bibles, it's a translation of one of the three words you mention: Gehenna, hades and Tartarus.

Hades/sheol was considered the abode of the souls of those who had died. Lazarus was found in "Abraham's bosom" while the rich man was in hades, in the Lord's parable. The Bible also refers to the souls in hades as those who are "under the earth", for example Philippians 2:10:

"Therefore God has highly exalted Him (Jesus),and has given Him a name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones,
and of ones under the earth;
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9-11).

Revelation 5:3
and no one was able in the heaven, nor upon the earth,
nor under the earth,
to open the scroll,

Revelation 5:13
and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth,
and under the earth,
and the things that are upon the sea,
and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might--to the ages of the ages!'

No matter what tradition may tell you, "hell" as we understand it today, is not a Biblical concept, because the concept is not found in the Bible.

DamianWarS · Jul 27, 2020

Der Alte said:
I certainly appreciate you sharing your unsupported opinion with me. You have not provided any evidence to support anything you said. I doubt very seriously that the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, which I quoted, consulted the OT book of Enoch when they translated the Greek EOB.
…..The word “parable” is from the Greek word “παραβολή/parabole” which means to place or throw beside, to clarify/explain something unknown by comparing it to something known. All of the unquestioned “parables” have this comparison.
Jesus identified 5 parables as such. Others identified 26 parables as such.
…..The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the format of a parable there is no worldly situation which was or can be likened to heaven. There was no comparison.
It is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
…..None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
…..All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,””a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people “Lazarus,” otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the Lazarus and the rich man account considered it to be factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
•Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

You have a very western approach of reading scripture that values details over the goal and telling the truth (aka literal facts) over honor. Your EO buddies are cut from a different cloth, where honor has higher values. Accounts are goal driven and when Jesus tells an account, whatever you want to call it, he is concerned about the goal of the account and building to that goal and this is a very Hebrew/eastern way of doing it. It seems you are more interested in the details that build that goal and in doing so miss the point. The point is not about a description of hell/hades and if that is what you get out if it then it's out of context as that descriptor is to build to the goal of the account not to act alone.

hedrick · Jul 27, 2020

Der Alte said:
I see a lot of assumptions/presuppositions and vague empty references. I quoted three [3] Jewish sources which clearly stated their beliefs
...
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible

Actually these are not necessarily the best sources. Jesus almost certainly didn't teach in Greek, and the Greek into which his teachings were translated was not modern Greek. Furthermore, neither current Judaism nor current Greek Orthodox necessarily preserve 1st Cent Jewish understanding. Orthodox interpreters have a strong commitment to Orthodox tradition as it developed over the first few centuries. At least if I can judge from postings in CF, they do not appear to try and separate these from the original 1st Cent context.

With language such as eternal fire, we have Is 66, where the first is certainly not literally eternal, and is consuming dead bodies, not tormenting live ones. However in later Christian and Jewish tradition, this eternal fire came to be understood differently. It is not obvious that Jesus intended the later sense.

E.g. TDNT notes that the oldest Rabbinic reference to Gehenna "tells us that the disciples of Shammai, as distinct from those of Hillel, ascribe to Gehenna a purgatorial as well as a penal character" and understands Mark 9:49 as suggesting that for the reference in 9:48. (This is not a common interpretation. Most interpreters assume that 9:49 is out of context, isolated from both the verses before and after.)

Zao is life · Jul 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Or worse than that, that Jesus died to save us from God. (the wrath of God)

Jesus died to save the world from physical death (deliver us from hades), and from the wrath of God or fire of His correction.

JLHargus · Jul 27, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny?

Most folks listen to their priest/preacher/minister and also read their Bibles, and most of the time they hear or see “Hell” mentioned, and accept it as a given, in a prima facie sense. I ask you, however, is it so? Does this word and concept belong in the Bible? Does it really belong in t,he theology of so many churches? Let’s dig down into the “infernum” of our subject, “infernum” simply meaning originally that which is below...or simply underground.

The witness of the creation accounts

In Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, is the basic Biblical story of the creation of the cosmos and everything in it. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” as we read in Genesis 1:1. Note that there is no mention of God also creating hell. Chapter 1 goes on to state six times that the creation was good, the last time VERY good. The existence of hell would have made it less good, but then, that was before the Fall, so it may not apply. If God made it later, it is not mentioned anywhere, but don’t believe me – examine this list of scriptures mentioning creation:

Exodus 20:11

Isaiah 40:26

Isaiah 45:7-8, 18

Mark 10:6

John 1:1-5

Romans 1:20,25

Romans 8:19-22

I Corinthians 8:6

II Corinthians 5:17

Ephesians 2:10

Colossians 1:16-17, 20

Hebrews 11:3

Revelation 4:11

In Isaiah 45:7 we see a mention of light and darkness, but this is not a hint of hell, if someone were hoping so, for darkness is simply where the light has yet to penetrate.

So, hell appears to be uncreated, but there is more.

The witness of the translated terms

We will find the origin of hell presently, but first let’s look at the words and terms it was translated from.

1. Sheol

“Sheol” is is from the Hebrew, and generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. It is translated in the KJV and probably other translations into one of three words: grave, pit (about half) or hell (about half). Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate “sheol” into three words, as the translators have done. They could have very well let “sheol” stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. I suppose they needed some support for the hell doctrine in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-rendered-as-hell, there is so very little to go that way.

I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for “sheol” to be rendered as “grave” or “pit” when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses in the “hell” list mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent.

Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were translated in one way or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I’m sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, “…he bringeth down to hell…”, but what would they have done with the following, “…and bringeth up.”? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the “grave/pit” half.

We have the same problem in reverse, in the “hell” half.Splatter Pak PsalmSplatter Pak 16:10’s “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…,” should have been given over to the “grave/pit” camp, thus avoiding the ban on exit from hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We see it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.

2. Hades

“Hades” is the best Greek eqivalent for the Hebrew term “sheol.” However, it is a pagan word from a pagan culture, and thus, brought in some unfortunate theological baggage. It is translated as “hell” consistently in most Bibles, except for one instance. I wondered if it were a matter of context, so I examined all eleven instances of the word, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to hell is not too much to swallow. The one time when “hades” was rendered as “grave,” was in I Corinthians 15:55. Now context might have allowed, but Paul’s taunt of, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” follows after Hosea 13:14 – “O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction…”. If either were rendered as “hell,” it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction.

The last two instances of “hades” to “hell” are in the Revelation, 20:13-14. “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – “hades,” in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what my Bible’s references suggest. The translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – hell delivering up its dead, and hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine. Using “grave” or “sheol” would have cleared up the problems.

3. Gehenna

“Gehenna” is used in the Bible some twelve times, depending on the version, and refers to a physical place in the real world that you can visit today. In the OT, it was the “Valley of the Sons of Hinnom,” where children were sacrificed to idols. The form we read in the NT is a Greek transliteration. Now since it is a place in the real world, a fact no one can dispute, I believe its translation as “hell” is NOT justified.

4. Tartarus

This is yet another pagan word from a pagan culture, and only used once, in II Peter 2:4. For the Greeks, it was a prison for the Titans and some people - to Peter, it was a prison for some spirit beings. Should we really hang a doctrine on the single use of a term?

Further, if these four terms were NOT translated as ”hell,” would any of us have suspected such a place, such an outcome? If we take the Bible at face value, how do we explain God failing to tell us that He made the place? How we view God’s sketchy warnings – why did He warn Adam and Eve of only death...if hell were a real place? The warnings He gave to many after that follow the same pattern: simple death was the only listed outcome.

So, examination of the four underlying words translated to “hell” fails to support the concept, especially as two of them are pagan terms. So let’s move on to...

The witness of paganism

You the reader may be wondering something like “What the hell?” and I fully sympathize. Where did this word “hell” come from, anyway? Happily, we have some bread crumbs. Not only do we have the help of our Bible’s marginal references, telling us to “see sheol,” “see hades,” “see gehenna,” and “see tartarus” - we have the following:

1. I have an Oxford English Dictionary, and it lists the year in which a word first appears in the English language. For “hell” that year is about 825 AD. In that period, Norse and Danes were pouring into the eastern part of Britain, and the Danelaw resulted. New Nordic words were coming into use as well as Nordic rule, and “hel” was one such word. Here’s a sampling from related languages:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic – halja

It’s useful to know that the original meaning of such words was “to hide, to cover” used as verbs, and “hidden, covered” used as adjectives – a reference to the grave, but not to the common understanding of hell. We pick up breadcrumbs in the 1611 KJV, where we see “hell,” and also “hel,” used twice. We see “hel” a lot more in “Beowulf,” which was written in Old English – in fact, it was the Anglo-Saxon language, spoken also on the continent. Under the baptized veneer of the story is a pagan subtext, and the Angles and Saxons were pagans if you go very far back in time. Note in the list above that Old Norse shared “hel” with Old English/Anglo Saxon, so maybe that breadcrumb could lead to something in the culture of Old Norway.

In Norse mythology, we find paydirt – the Norse believed that if you did not rate going to Valhalla when you died, you would spend th,e afterlife in Helheim, or “House of Hel.” Hel was the ruler of Helheim, they thought, and was thought to be a goddess or ogress, and very ugly.

2. Have you ever seen a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist hell? It is all too familiar: fire, demons and the suffering damned in scenes of torture and misery. The Islamic hell is much like it, but less inventive. Some other religions have a hell, and some don’t.

The witness of helling

As I said, “hell” is a verb, as well as a noun, and is derived from an old Germanic word, meaning, “to hide or cover.” My father told me about this years ago – if a farmer lacked a root cellar or a cellar/basement under the house, and needed a place to keep veggies or fruits over the winter, he would do the following. First, he would dig a pit or trench deeper than the local frost line. Then, he would line the bottom with straw. On top of that, he’d place a layer of, say, potatoes. More straw went on top of the potatoes, and he would finish the job by shovelling in the dirt previously dug out. Note – it is called “helling the potatoes.” Going to Hell, then, just means going into the ground...or the grave.

The witness of truth

So – having tracked hell down to its likely source in pagan mythology/religion, what should we believe? God has some cheery news for us: the Jubilee. Every 49 years, at a set time, everyone who had fallen into slavery was freed, and had land and possessions returned – see Leviticus 25:8-13. Are you mired in sin? Aren’t we all? The Bible tells us to resist sin, the flesh, the adversary...but so few seem to overcome in this life. However, do not despair – the same Book has the solution: Romans 6:7, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

This is our Jubilee – after a lifetime as slaves to sin, we are freed! How do we know we are all saved? First Corinthians 15:28 tells us, “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” Yes, “all” in this verse really means ALL – you, me and everyone! Jesus the Christ really is the Savior of the World, in fact, of the entire created Cosmos. I need to add that the Lake of Fire is not Hell, and is not ID’d as Hell in the Revelation. After a long word study on “fire” in the Bibe, which is beyond the scope of this short essay, I concluded that all mentions of fire in the Bible are either natural fire or a manifestation of God, or as I like to call it, Godfire. Therefore, I am compelled to see the Lake of Fire as Godfire, which is both punitive, corrective and transformatinal. I will leave you with First Corinthians 3:15 - “ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

JackRT · Jul 27, 2020

This thread has brought to mind an old problem of mine. In various passages of scripture God is described as jealous, angry and even wrathful. And yet these same qualities are regarded sins in humanity. This produces a sort of cognitive dissonance in my mind --- how is it possible to worship a God whose moral standards are less than my own?

Jesus is YHWH · Jul 27, 2020

JackRT said:
This thread has brought to mind an old problem of mine. In various passages of scripture God is described as jealous, angry and even wrathful. And yet these same qualities are regarded sins in humanity. This produces a sort of cognitive dissonance in my mind --- how is it possible to worship a God whose moral standards are less than my own?

That is simply not true.

The bible says to be angry and sin not. So there is a righteous anger that is not sinful. ( Eph 4:26)

Paul says he was jealous for the Corinthians with a godly jealousy. ( 2 Cor 11:2)

hope this helps !!!

Der Alte · Jul 27, 2020

Der Alte said:
Posted earlier in this thread

The current meaning of a word any word is not necessarily the same as the root word. To think that is called the lexical fallacy, "Root fallacy."
A good example is "understand" it has nothing to do with being "under" anything nor "standing."

"The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. ... An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology."

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..That there were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia,
Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that
they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

nolidad · Jul 27, 2020

Der Alte said:
Mostly irrelevant post. The current meaning of a word any word is not necessarily the same as the root word. To think that is called the lexical fallacy, "Root fallacy."
A good example is "understand" it has nothing to do with being "under" anything nor "standing."

"The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. ... An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology."
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..That there were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia,
Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that
they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Well let us answer your posers shall we?

1. First what we call "hell" is a misnomer. Biblically it is the Lake of Fire where people go to suffer for all eternity!

2. Hell/sheol/hades is the place where the dead went after their bodies died.

3. The lake of fire was created after teh satanic Fall which occurred sometime after the six days of creation, so it wouldn't have been [art of teh creative narrative at all! As Jesus said, it was created for the devils and not initially for man.

4. Hell had three compartments according to Scripture. Tartarus, where the angels who had sex with humans are chained, the place of torments where all the lost go awaiting being cast into the lake of fire, and Abrahams bosom/ paradise. Paradise was closed and all the sould there went to heaven when Jesus ascended back to heaven (Ephesians)

5. The knowledge of the place of torments was very very common in Jesus day! Israel did not have much of a heavenly hope. Jesus had come to give them their earthly kingdom as was promised multiple times in the OT so heaven and the lake of fire weere not taught much.

6. As to eternal punishment, Jesus taught it in Matt. 25:43, In the Book of Revelation and elsewhere in the NT. It is an eternal punishment for rejecting death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sins.

nolidad · Jul 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Or worse than that, that Jesus died to save us from God. (the wrath of God)

Are you still misquoting the Bible to try to defend the indefensible?

Jesus died to redeem us from the consequence of our own sin! Which is the wrath of the Father ppoured out for those who reject so great a gift that was purchased with so great a price!

YOu still have yet to show one bible verse that shows men and devils can repent in the lake of fire! That would prove your hypothesis.

truefiction1 · Jul 27, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Yes, when we put aside the FICTIONS of Dante, Milton and Mary K Baxter, Hell has little support.

Fictional imagery aside, hell has the full support of Jesus Christ and the early Church. But don't mistake it for a physical space; it is a metaphysical one.

Der Alte · Jul 27, 2020

hedrick said:
Actually these are not necessarily the best sources. Jesus almost certainly didn't teach in Greek, and the Greek into which his teachings were translated was not modern Greek. Furthermore, neither current Judaism nor current Greek Orthodox necessarily preserve 1st Cent Jewish understanding. Orthodox interpreters have a strong commitment to Orthodox tradition as it developed over the first few centuries. At least if I can judge from postings in CF, they do not appear to try and separate these from the original 1st Cent context.
With language such as eternal fire, we have Is 66, where the first is certainly not literally eternal, and is consuming dead bodies, not tormenting live ones. However in later Christian and Jewish tradition, this eternal fire came to be understood differently. It is not obvious that Jesus intended the later sense.
E.g. TDNT notes that the oldest Rabbinic reference to Gehenna "tells us that the disciples of Shammai, as distinct from those of Hillel, ascribe to Gehenna a purgatorial as well as a penal character" and understands Mark 9:49 as suggesting that for the reference in 9:48. (This is not a common interpretation. Most interpreters assume that 9:49 is out of context, isolated from both the verses before and after.)

What should one quote as evidence? You quoted from the TDNT. I quoted from three Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud and the Early Church Fathers. I quoted Hillel from the JE who was contemporary with Shammai. He believed in hell.
After writing this I remembered I have the 1985 abridged TDNT. Here is the complete entry on Gehenna.

1. géenna is the Greek form of the Hebrew name for the wadi er-Rahabi. This acquired a bad reputation because of the sacrifices offered to Moloch there (2 Kgs. 16:3). Judgment was pronounced on it (Jer. 7:32). and it thus came to be equated with the hell or the last Judgment (Eth. En. 9th26). Later it was also used for the place where the wicked are punished in the intermediate State. The LXX. Philo. and Jossephus do not have the term: Philo has tartaros instead.
2. the NT distinguishes between hades and gêenna: a. the former is temporary. the latter definitive (cr. Mk. 9:43, 48); b. the former is for the soul alone, the latter for the reunited body and soul (Mk. 9:43fT.; Mt. 10.28). gêenna is preexistent (Mt. 25:41). 11 is manifested as a fiery abyss (Mk. 9:43) after the general resurrection. Those who fall victim to divine judgment (Mt. 5:22: 23:33) will be destroyed there with eternal fire. The ungodly are sons of géenna (Mt. 23:15). They go to it with Satan and the demons (Mt. 25:41: cf. Rev. 19:20: 20:10-11). The threat of géenna in the NT is used to show the seriousness of sin and to awaken the conscience to fear of the divine anger (Mt. 10:28; 23:33). Even contemptuous words must be avoided (Mt. 5:22): no sacrifice is too costly in the war against sin (Mt. 9:43ef.). [J. Jeremias. I. 657-58] -> aionios, pyr p. 113

nolidad · Jul 27, 2020

truefiction1 said:
Fictional imagery aside, hell has the full support of Jesus Christ and the early Church. But don't mistake it for a physical space; it is a metaphysical one.

Well the literal hell/sheol/hades, is where disembodied souls go! But teh Lake of Fire is an actual physical place because the dead who are lost are rejoined to tehir bodies before being physically cast intot eh place of torment God prepared for the devil and his angels originally!

Jamdoc · Jul 27, 2020

Jesus preached Hellfire and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and Revelation had the smoke of sinner's torment rising up forever and ever..
so..
that's what I'll go with. it's unfortunate, if I could change God's mind on any one thing, it'd be to have mercy and not have hell, just annihilation from existence.
but thy will be done.

Lazarus Short · Jul 27, 2020

Gregorikos said:
You didn't look very well.

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; Matthew 25:41 (NRSV)

1. Only God is eternal, so the fire of this verse must be some aspect of God.

2. If this verse is referring to the Lake of Fire, I note that that lake is nowhere ID'd as Hell in the Bible.

Bruce Leiter · Jul 27, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny?

Most folks listen to their priest/preacher/minister and also read their Bibles, and most of the time they hear or see “Hell” mentioned, and accept it as a given, in a prima facie sense. I ask you, however, is it so? Does this word and concept belong in the Bible? Does it really belong in t,he theology of so many churches? Let’s dig down into the “infernum” of our subject, “infernum” simply meaning originally that which is below...or simply underground.

The witness of the creation accounts

In Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, is the basic Biblical story of the creation of the cosmos and everything in it. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” as we read in Genesis 1:1. Note that there is no mention of God also creating hell. Chapter 1 goes on to state six times that the creation was good, the last time VERY good. The existence of hell would have made it less good, but then, that was before the Fall, so it may not apply. If God made it later, it is not mentioned anywhere, but don’t believe me – examine this list of scriptures mentioning creation:

Exodus 20:11

Isaiah 40:26

Isaiah 45:7-8, 18

Mark 10:6

John 1:1-5

Romans 1:20,25

Romans 8:19-22

I Corinthians 8:6

II Corinthians 5:17

Ephesians 2:10

Colossians 1:16-17, 20

Hebrews 11:3

Revelation 4:11

In Isaiah 45:7 we see a mention of light and darkness, but this is not a hint of hell, if someone were hoping so, for darkness is simply where the light has yet to penetrate.

So, hell appears to be uncreated, but there is more.

The witness of the translated terms

We will find the origin of hell presently, but first let’s look at the words and terms it was translated from.

1. Sheol

“Sheol” is is from the Hebrew, and generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. It is translated in the KJV and probably other translations into one of three words: grave, pit (about half) or hell (about half). Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate “sheol” into three words, as the translators have done. They could have very well let “sheol” stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. I suppose they needed some support for the hell doctrine in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-rendered-as-hell, there is so very little to go that way.

I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for “sheol” to be rendered as “grave” or “pit” when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses in the “hell” list mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent.

Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were translated in one way or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I’m sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, “…he bringeth down to hell…”, but what would they have done with the following, “…and bringeth up.”? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the “grave/pit” half.

We have the same problem in reverse, in the “hell” half.Splatter Pak PsalmSplatter Pak 16:10’s “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…,” should have been given over to the “grave/pit” camp, thus avoiding the ban on exit from hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We see it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.

2. Hades

“Hades” is the best Greek eqivalent for the Hebrew term “sheol.” However, it is a pagan word from a pagan culture, and thus, brought in some unfortunate theological baggage. It is translated as “hell” consistently in most Bibles, except for one instance. I wondered if it were a matter of context, so I examined all eleven instances of the word, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to hell is not too much to swallow. The one time when “hades” was rendered as “grave,” was in I Corinthians 15:55. Now context might have allowed, but Paul’s taunt of, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” follows after Hosea 13:14 – “O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction…”. If either were rendered as “hell,” it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction.

The last two instances of “hades” to “hell” are in the Revelation, 20:13-14. “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters – “hades,” in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what my Bible’s references suggest. The translators may have over-reached themselves here, however – hell delivering up its dead, and hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine. Using “grave” or “sheol” would have cleared up the problems.

3. Gehenna

“Gehenna” is used in the Bible some twelve times, depending on the version, and refers to a physical place in the real world that you can visit today. In the OT, it was the “Valley of the Sons of Hinnom,” where children were sacrificed to idols. The form we read in the NT is a Greek transliteration. Now since it is a place in the real world, a fact no one can dispute, I believe its translation as “hell” is NOT justified.

4. Tartarus

This is yet another pagan word from a pagan culture, and only used once, in II Peter 2:4. For the Greeks, it was a prison for the Titans and some people - to Peter, it was a prison for some spirit beings. Should we really hang a doctrine on the single use of a term?

Further, if these four terms were NOT translated as ”hell,” would any of us have suspected such a place, such an outcome? If we take the Bible at face value, how do we explain God failing to tell us that He made the place? How we view God’s sketchy warnings – why did He warn Adam and Eve of only death...if hell were a real place? The warnings He gave to many after that follow the same pattern: simple death was the only listed outcome.

So, examination of the four underlying words translated to “hell” fails to support the concept, especially as two of them are pagan terms. So let’s move on to...

The witness of paganism

You the reader may be wondering something like “What the hell?” and I fully sympathize. Where did this word “hell” come from, anyway? Happily, we have some bread crumbs. Not only do we have the help of our Bible’s marginal references, telling us to “see sheol,” “see hades,” “see gehenna,” and “see tartarus” - we have the following:

1. I have an Oxford English Dictionary, and it lists the year in which a word first appears in the English language. For “hell” that year is about 825 AD. In that period, Norse and Danes were pouring into the eastern part of Britain, and the Danelaw resulted. New Nordic words were coming into use as well as Nordic rule, and “hel” was one such word. Here’s a sampling from related languages:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic – halja

It’s useful to know that the original meaning of such words was “to hide, to cover” used as verbs, and “hidden, covered” used as adjectives – a reference to the grave, but not to the common understanding of hell. We pick up breadcrumbs in the 1611 KJV, where we see “hell,” and also “hel,” used twice. We see “hel” a lot more in “Beowulf,” which was written in Old English – in fact, it was the Anglo-Saxon language, spoken also on the continent. Under the baptized veneer of the story is a pagan subtext, and the Angles and Saxons were pagans if you go very far back in time. Note in the list above that Old Norse shared “hel” with Old English/Anglo Saxon, so maybe that breadcrumb could lead to something in the culture of Old Norway.

In Norse mythology, we find paydirt – the Norse believed that if you did not rate going to Valhalla when you died, you would spend th,e afterlife in Helheim, or “House of Hel.” Hel was the ruler of Helheim, they thought, and was thought to be a goddess or ogress, and very ugly.

2. Have you ever seen a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist hell? It is all too familiar: fire, demons and the suffering damned in scenes of torture and misery. The Islamic hell is much like it, but less inventive. Some other religions have a hell, and some don’t.

The witness of helling

As I said, “hell” is a verb, as well as a noun, and is derived from an old Germanic word, meaning, “to hide or cover.” My father told me about this years ago – if a farmer lacked a root cellar or a cellar/basement under the house, and needed a place to keep veggies or fruits over the winter, he would do the following. First, he would dig a pit or trench deeper than the local frost line. Then, he would line the bottom with straw. On top of that, he’d place a layer of, say, potatoes. More straw went on top of the potatoes, and he would finish the job by shovelling in the dirt previously dug out. Note – it is called “helling the potatoes.” Going to Hell, then, just means going into the ground...or the grave.

The witness of truth

So – having tracked hell down to its likely source in pagan mythology/religion, what should we believe? God has some cheery news for us: the Jubilee. Every 49 years, at a set time, everyone who had fallen into slavery was freed, and had land and possessions returned – see Leviticus 25:8-13. Are you mired in sin? Aren’t we all? The Bible tells us to resist sin, the flesh, the adversary...but so few seem to overcome in this life. However, do not despair – the same Book has the solution: Romans 6:7, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

This is our Jubilee – after a lifetime as slaves to sin, we are freed! How do we know we are all saved? First Corinthians 15:28 tells us, “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” Yes, “all” in this verse really means ALL – you, me and everyone! Jesus the Christ really is the Savior of the World, in fact, of the entire created Cosmos. I need to add that the Lake of Fire is not Hell, and is not ID’d as Hell in the Revelation. After a long word study on “fire” in the Bibe, which is beyond the scope of this short essay, I concluded that all mentions of fire in the Bible are either natural fire or a manifestation of God, or as I like to call it, Godfire. Therefore, I am compelled to see the Lake of Fire as Godfire, which is both punitive, corrective and transformatinal. I will leave you with First Corinthians 3:15 - “ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

One valid interpretation principle is that we should never argue for something that doesn't happen or isn't said. It seems that in some of your post that is what you're doing.

Another one is to accept what the Bible assumes instead of going to the Scriptures to prove an idea that we already have. Is what you are doing? If so, why?

Also, why do you say so little about the gospels? Jesus teaches clearly that people go to hell after the final judgment. Now, hell is pictured as either burning sulfur or outer darkness. I think that those are symbolic images picturing full separation from God and from all the things and people we felt gave us meaning in this life forever.

Why do I say that? Well, just look at Matthew 25:31-46. At the end, Jesus comments, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Other passages describe believers' future as lasting forever. Therefore, the parallel here is an "eternal punishment" that lasts forever.

People have said that hell is cruel. My reply is that it demonstrates God's perfect justice since unrepentant unbelievers have rejected their Creator. After all, Paul clearly says in Romans 1:18-25 that God shows them his divine majesty. The result is that they are without excuse for their wicked rebellion. We're all in that same boat when we are conceived and born into this world before Jesus rescues us in the power of his victory (see Ephesians 2:1-10).

hedrick · Jul 27, 2020

Der Alte said:
After writing this I remembered I have the 1985 abridged TDNT. Here is the complete entry on Gehenna.

Too abridged, I'm afraid. It omits that fact that the disciples of Shammai had a different view, which is present in the full entry. I've also found in some sources (e.g.Wikipedia) that Hillel thought many (most?) people would only be in Gehenna for 12 months, after which they would be destroyed. There are also references to some people who come out from Gehenna, but again, I don't have a wonderful source.

Der Alte · Jul 27, 2020

hedrick said:
Too abridged, I'm afraid. It omits that fact that the disciples of Shammai had a different view, which is present in the full entry. I've also found in some sources (e.g.Wikipedia) that Hillel thought many (most?) people would only be in Gehenna for 12 months, after which they would be destroyed. There are also references to some people who come out from Gehenna, but again, I don't have a wonderful source.

I quoted from the Talmud which references both Hillel and Shammai. Neither one refutes the other both and maybe more views were present in Israel. I did specify that what I quoted was a "a view" not "the view."
That brings us back to my point Jesus undoubtedly knew of the various teachings is Israel, if it was not true why would Jesus say "eternal punishment" to people some of whom believed that "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity,?"

hedrick · Jul 27, 2020

Der Alte said:
That brings us back to my point Jesus undoubtedly knew of the various teachings is Israel, if it was not true why would Jesus say "eternal punishment" to people some of whom believed that "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity,?"

Given that this was translated from another language after a few decades of oral transmission, I don't think it makes sense to hang much on a phrase that is used only this one time. Most commentators note the similarity to Dan 12:2, which is not so explicit about the punishment. The Aramaic original could well have been similar.

To be blunt, I don't trust Matthew about judgement. Almost all uses of Gehenna are in Matthew. Mark uses it in one passage that is obviously hyperbole, and Luke uses it once as a possibility that he doesn't say anyone will actually end up in. The biggest problem I see with conservative exegesis is that when there's a range of viewpoints in the NT, somehow the most extreme always ends up controlling.

Does the Doctrine of Hell and ECT Hold up to Scrutiny?

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