Does the Divinity of Christ really matter?

[Melethiel]

May I offer you some reading material?

I would love for you to understand better.

On the Incarnation by St. Anthanasius; Why Christ Came, Died and was Resurrected

I second that recommendation. Don't worry, it's fairly short.

 

[DaveS]

If the facts don't matter.. then why are you here?

God is not capable of SIN. The OT rulers misunderstood the LAW (Which is Christ God), That is why Christ came to complete it.

God is perfect.... CHRIST IS GOD. Christ is the "LOGOS" (THE WORD OF GOD) See the first chapter of John.

Even if God did something that we considered to be SIN, It would be us that are wrong and he that is right.

He is the creator. What he says and what he does is perfect.

We do not set the bar. He does.

Forgive me....

Then why are we still judging people by this misunderstood law?

 

[catwoman2]

He consistently worked on the Sabbath,
So did the priests who offered sacrifices on the Sabbath so they wouldn't break God's Laws. They didn't sin either. The Pharisees added 613 laws to "explain" God's Laws. They even went so far as to cover their drinking glass with fabric so they wouldn't drink a gnat (a very small unclean animal); God never ordered this. God works on the Sabbath to keep the universe going and to take care of people. He isn't sinning either.

You can't go by what the Pharisees said. They were wrong. Jesus said so.

He claimed that He was God (while this was true, it is still a sin by OT laws),

It isn't wrong if it is true. He was and is God. The OT is filled with prophecies saying that God would come in human form. Like Isaiah 7:14. Emmanuel means God with us.

By the way, please show me in the OT where it is wrong to claim you're God if you are God.

he disobeyed his elders (Pharisees)
In Acts it is said, "We must obey God rather than Man." Those Pharisees are the same ones who said that they had no king but Caesar. God wasn't their king anymore. If your elders are wrong and doing and teaching what God says is wrong, disobey them.

and He most probably ate 'unclean' food as He preached that nothing is unclean.

Prove to me that Jesus ate anything unclean. Slander is to defile someone's reputation. Please don't slander my Lord.

By OT laws these are all sins - some even ranking against the Ten Commandments.

I personally believe that this requirement for Jesus to be free of Sin is pointless anyway - afterall did he not take on the sins of the entire world and go to Hell because of it? It was only His power as God (or whatever) that allowed Him to defeat Satan and break Hell thus allowing everyone to gain immortal life. People forget that the most important part of Jesus's time actually occured when he was "dead".

Sigh! You really don't get it. I feel sorry for you...I'll pray for your enlightenment.

 

[catwoman2]

One last post for me on this thread:

Please read the book recommended to you and ask God to reveal His Truth to you.

I'll pray for you.

 

[OObi]

One last post for me on this thread:

Please read the book recommended to you and ask God to reveal His Truth to you.

I'll pray for you.

lol...

People who are Torah observent try and stay away from Catholic teachings... they know better.

I would like to recommend a book for you to, it's called the Torah, it seems as if you are unfamiliar with it.

 

[DaveS]

I'll pray for you.

You mean that you think I'm going to Hell then? I can't believe that some people are so closed minded that they believe that I have commited some TERRIBLE, Hell worthy response simply because I asked that the various Denominations could try to forget some of their doctrinal differences and see the Christian first and not the Dogma.

Sigh! You really don't get it. I feel sorry for you...I'll pray for your enlightenment.

Another one!

So did the priests who offered sacrifices on the Sabbath so they wouldn't break God's Laws. They didn't sin either. The Pharisees added 613 laws to "explain" God's Laws. They even went so far as to cover their drinking glass with fabric so they wouldn't drink a gnat (a very small unclean animal); God never ordered this. God works on the Sabbath to keep the universe going and to take care of people. He isn't sinning either.

You can't go by what the Pharisees said. They were wrong. Jesus said so.

Then why do we still pick and choose some of their laws to use now, even when Jesus said they were wrong?

It isn't wrong if it is true. He was and is God. The OT is filled with prophecies saying that God would come in human form. Like Isaiah 7:14. Emmanuel means God with us.

By the way, please show me in the OT where it is wrong to claim you're God if you are God.

The First Commandment. By the Law of the Pharisees who did not believe in Jesus then He was sinning. If we continually use the laws of the Pharisees to judge people in today's world then we must also accept this. You cannot pick and choose.

In Acts it is said, "We must obey God rather than Man." Those Pharisees are the same ones who said that they had no king but Caesar. God wasn't their king anymore. If your elders are wrong and doing and teaching what God says is wrong, disobey them.

Refer to previous point.

Prove to me that Jesus ate anything unclean. Slander is to defile someone's reputation. Please don't slander my Lord.

I am not... I do know however that God believed that everything that was made by Him he considers clean (Acts 10). The Law of the Pharisees however forbid the eating of certain animals. However, we ignore this part of Levitical law to suit ourselves.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I doubt anyone here thinks you are going to Hell for misunderstanding.

They mean that they will pray for your enlightenment.... so that you will understand.

There are only two directions you can go concerning salvation....

Towards God or away from God....

Are you moving towards God? If so then don't worry about Christ he will keep his end of the bargain.

You just keep moving towards God.

Forgive me.....

 

[Lynn73]

Deleted.

 

[DaveS]

I doubt anyone here thinks you are going to Hell for misunderstanding.

They mean that they will pray for your enlightenment.... so that you will understand.

There are only two directions you can go concerning salvation....

Towards God or away from God....

Are you moving towards God? If so then don't worry about Christ he will keep his end of the bargain.

You just keep moving towards God.

Forgive me.....

You would be surprised. 'I will pray for you' is a code phrase universally used against liberals when someone basically can't argue against you, but still believes themselves to be correct simply because it is what they have always believed. It is also incredibly infuriating to receive it as it is the debate equivalent to the playground, 'I'm right and I don't care what you say because I will always be right!'.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You would be surprised. 'I will pray for you' is a code phrase universally used against liberals when someone basically can't argue against you, but still believes themselves to be correct simply because it is what they have always believed. It is also incredibly infuriating to receive it as it is the debate equivalent to the playground, 'I'm right and I don't care what you say because I will always be right!'.

I think you are making an assumption of their beliefs. That is not the way the Orthodox use the term.

Forgive me....

 

[DaveS]

I think you are making an assumption of their beliefs. That is not the way the Orthodox use the term.

While it is an assumption (will always be) it is one based on quite a lot of experience. It is a way of getting out of a debate while not actually dealing with the issues but still claiming a "victory".

The post by catwoman2 illustrates this beautifully.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

BTW ~ Did you read that book?

On the Incarnation by St. Anthanasius; Why Christ Came, Died and was Resurrected

You're not going to just ignore it are you?

Forgive me...

 

[DaveS]

Well, it is a book and I don't have exactly all the time in the world to read it all in about 2 days. I will read it when I have a bit of time.

 

[Melethiel]

Well, it is a book and I don't have exactly all the time in the world to read it all in about 2 days. I will read it when I have a bit of time.

It's very short (for a book).

 

[josh_676]

Yes it does.

 

[catwoman2]

While it is an assumption (will always be) it is one based on quite a lot of experience. It is a way of getting out of a debate while not actually dealing with the issues but still claiming a "victory".

The post by catwoman2 illustrates this beautifully.

Actually, OrthodoxyUSA was correct in the way I meant it.

 

[DaveS]

Actually, OrthodoxyUSA was correct in the way I meant it.

Then why did you say 'I will leave this thread?'

Could we actually get back to the points I made rather than avoiding them by discussing the size of a book...

 

[catwoman2]

I was going to leave but then you said you had the impression that I thought you were going to hell for your beliefs. I couldn't leave before I corrected your statement. As for talking any further, people have given you a fine suggestion (about the book).

Anything I say won't matter because you don't understand. You seem to be saying that the Pharisees' interpetation of Mosaic Law was correct and that Christ sinned by: claiming to be God, working on a Sabaath day and not obeying the Pharisees. You don't understand what I said in response to these points.

Your assumption that the Pharisees being right boggles my mind, frankly. And a commandment that was meant to guide us from having false gods is being used against God Himself who took on human flesh in the Incarnation.

Christ Himself remarks on the Sabbath Day in Matthew 12. If I had a choice as to listen to people or God, I'd choose God anyday.

You basically are saying that God should obey sinful man if they are His elders according to the flesh.

You don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, you do believe that He sinned and you don't think His being a "sinner" makes any difference. Evil doesn't dwell with God. Simple.

what possibly is there to talk about?? I really don't understand.

I pray that you understand that Jesus is God and perfect.

Go in peace, my friend. I'll be praying for you that one day you do understand.

Now I'll be going on to other threads...

 

[DaveS]

I pray that you understand that Jesus is God and perfect.

Go in peace, my friend. I'll be praying for you that one day you do understand.

Now I'll be going on to other threads...

She said it again!!
(Monty Python, you gotta love 'em!)
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Anything I say won't matter because you don't understand. You seem to be saying that the Pharisees' interpetation of Mosaic Law was correct and that Christ sinned by: claiming to be God, working on a Sabaath day and not obeying the Pharisees. You don't understand what I said in response to these points.

Your assumption that the Pharisees being right boggles my mind, frankly. And a commandment that was meant to guide us from having false gods is being used against God Himself who took on human flesh in the Incarnation.

Christ Himself remarks on the Sabbath Day in Matthew 12. If I had a choice as to listen to people or God, I'd choose God anyday.

You basically are saying that God should obey sinful man if they are His elders according to the flesh.

You don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, you do believe that He sinned and you don't think His being a "sinner" makes any difference. Evil doesn't dwell with God. Simple.

No I do believe Christ is God and that He is perfect. I also believe that the Pharisee's interpretation of Mosaic Law is wrong. However, it seems that many Christians still live by some of these wrong statements today and it is this I am trying to point out as you cannot pick and choose which laws to go by for your own benefit (speaking generally). It is either Jesus or these laws.

 

[ToxicReboMan]

Hi,

[rant] Over recent years there has been an upsurge in the debate over whether Christ was:

A) God and the Messiah or

B) The Messiah, but not God

This debate had caused much anger and has split apart the Christian community with various sides claiming that others are not "Christian" because they believe in a different type of Trinity or because they believe that Christ was only God after a certain event etc. etc. It has also split apart religions with one of the main disagreements between Islam and Christianity being the divinity of Christ. Islam of course believing that Christ is not God.

All of this seems to prevent good, it blocks the real meaning of what Christ does - he is saving every one of us! Isn't that truly amazing?? He is saving the entire human race and taking all sin upon himself! Wow!
Instead of focusing on this and actively spreading the word and doing as Christ showed us we are backstabbing, name calling and becoming several groups of supremacists each believing that they are the right way, this is not Christ's way. Christ's way is to show love and compassion to all, regardless of petty theological beliefs (case in point, Samaritans) and differences. All he would care about is that we are spreading his base word, that of eternal love and safety open to all.

Why all the hate associated with this relatively small theological detail and all theology in general?

[/rant]

Note: I am not saying don't discuss theology, I myself really enjoy a theological debate. However, I do not see why it often seems more important than the whole meaning of Christianity and often prompts this horrible, self-righteous behaviour that is actively detrimental to all the Christ stands for.

I have read through the whole thread. It seems as though most people in this thread have not truly understood the point that you have been trying to make. Correct me if I am wrong, but...what you are trying to say is that Christians need to show more love and respect to those who also love Christ, but are not considered "true" Christians by many fellow Christians. Such as Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses for example. They love Christ like us. That counts alot to me. Therefore, unlike others that posted in this thread I do consider them brothers and sisters in Christ. The love of God is this, to obey the commandments. Love God and your neighbor as thy self. JW's and Mormons have the same commandments as us. What we have in common with them is more important than our differences. We should look to what unites us not what separates us.

I don't think Dave is wondering about the divinity of Christ. He said clearly that he believes that Jesus is God. Whether or not Jesus is God is not the point of this thread. We all know Jesus is God. Jesus was an inclusive leader not an exclusive one. He accepted all who came to Him. Nobody here is arguing against the certainty of Jesus' divinity.

I hope I'm not misunderstood.