Does the Divinity of Christ really matter?

[Debi1967]

Hi,

[rant] Over recent years there has been an upsurge in the debate over whether Christ was:

A) God and the Messiah or

B) The Messiah, but not God

This debate had caused much anger and has split apart the Christian community with various sides claiming that others are not "Christian" because they believe in a different type of Trinity or because they believe that Christ was only God after a certain event etc. etc. It has also split apart religions with one of the main disagreements between Islam and Christianity being the divinity of Christ. Islam of course believing that Christ is not God.

All of this seems to prevent good, it blocks the real meaning of what Christ does - he is saving every one of us! Isn't that truly amazing?? He is saving the entire human race and taking all sin upon himself! Wow!
Instead of focusing on this and actively spreading the word and doing as Christ showed us we are backstabbing, name calling and becoming several groups of supremacists each believing that they are the right way, this is not Christ's way. Christ's way is to show love and compassion to all, regardless of petty theological beliefs (case in point, Samaritans) and differences. All he would care about is that we are spreading his base word, that of eternal love and safety open to all.

Why all the hate associated with this relatively small theological detail and all theology in general?

[/rant]

Note: I am not saying don't discuss theology, I myself really enjoy a theological debate. However, I do not see why it often seems more important than the whole meaning of Christianity and often prompts this horrible, self-righteous behaviour that is actively detrimental to all the Christ stands for.

It might be because theology is defined by what your doctrines and dogmas are.

Therefore a Trinitarian would in fact believe it essential and necessary to believe that Christ is in fact God when it is Biblical that Christ is.

 

[DaveS]

Grrr no opposing views to the Divinity of Christ in question.

One point I do have to raise though is where do you draw the line as to what can be considered Christian? What exactly is a "pillar" of belief?

For example, in Roman Catholicism an major pillar of belief is the infallibility of the pope - however, only RC believes this. Does this make Christians who don't believe this non-Christian or vice versa? Does it really matter?

As you can see, what can be considered Christian can be so completely diverse in many ways other than the obvious (divinity of Christ etc) that often it leaves the Christian world battling over these little details and not focusing on being united to spread the general, base word.

Faith should be contended but there shouldn't be all that hate that is so wrong in a Christian life. I believe the only way to go forward is to forget all theological differences (yes, even the big ones) and try to come together in some way. We can only defeat evil united - even if some may argue of the exact meaning of evil.

 

[BigNorsk]

I think you have a valid point that we should not grumble against each other.

James 5:9 NET. Do not grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be judged. See, the judge stands before the gates!

But where I think you are wrong is in thinking that the deeds of Christ are more important that He is. The deeds were to show who he is, their very purpose is to witness to his divinity.

And we know that to honor Jesus is to honor the Father, if you don't honor Jesus you can't honor the Father, you have nothing.

John 5:19-23 NET. So Jesus answered them, "I tell you the solemn truth, the Son can do nothing on his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise. (20) For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he does, and will show him greater deeds than these, so that you will be amazed. (21) For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. (22) Furthermore, the Father does not judge anyone, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, (23) so that all people will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

To be courteous and gracious is not the same as accepting anything and everything as the truth.

Marv

 

[thereselittleflower]

Grrr no opposing views to the Divinity of Christ in question.

One point I do have to raise though is where do you draw the line as to what can be considered Christian? What exactly is a "pillar" of belief?

For example, in Roman Catholicism an major pillar of belief is the infallibility of the pope - however, only RC believes this. Does this make Christians who don't believe this non-Christian or vice versa? Does it really matter?

As you can see, what can be considered Christian can be so completely diverse in many ways other than the obvious (divinity of Christ etc) that often it leaves the Christian world battling over these little details and not focusing on being united to spread the general, base word.

Faith should be contended but there shouldn't be all that hate that is so wrong in a Christian life. I believe the only way to go forward is to forget all theological differences (yes, even the big ones) and try to come together in some way. We can only defeat evil united - even if some may argue of the exact meaning of evil.

Dave. the Early Church made a proper belief in the Trinity absolutely necessary to be a Christian . . that is one boundary.

One cannot compromise on this and be a Christian according to the Athanasian Creed.


Peace

 

[eoe]

One point I do have to raise though is where do you draw the line as to what can be considered Christian?

The nicene creed. That is the line in the sand.

 

[gennfamily]

i'm sorry people responded to you so harshly, you have an important point despite the unfortunate way you posed it. Yes, it matters that we realize Jesus is not just a man but God. BigNorsk hit the nail in post #23. At the same time the lack of respect, care and love-the outright hate that Christians often show each other is not bringing glory to the Lord. You are right, a christian that hates is exactly opposite of what Jesus was saying on the cross or wants each of us to say as his representative. Jesus actually said that loving God with our whole selves and loving our neighbors as we love our selves is the point of all the laws in the Bible.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Hi,

[rant] Over recent years there has been an upsurge in the debate over whether Christ was:

A) God and the Messiah or

B) The Messiah, but not God

This debate had caused much anger and has split apart the Christian community with various sides claiming that others are not "Christian" because they believe in a different type of Trinity or because they believe that Christ was only God after a certain event etc. etc. It has also split apart religions with one of the main disagreements between Islam and Christianity being the divinity of Christ. Islam of course believing that Christ is not God.

All of this seems to prevent good, it blocks the real meaning of what Christ does - he is saving every one of us! Isn't that truly amazing?? He is saving the entire human race and taking all sin upon himself! Wow!
Instead of focusing on this and actively spreading the word and doing as Christ showed us we are backstabbing, name calling and becoming several groups of supremacists each believing that they are the right way, this is not Christ's way. Christ's way is to show love and compassion to all, regardless of petty theological beliefs (case in point, Samaritans) and differences. All he would care about is that we are spreading his base word, that of eternal love and safety open to all.

Why all the hate associated with this relatively small theological detail and all theology in general?

[/rant]

Note: I am not saying don't discuss theology, I myself really enjoy a theological debate. However, I do not see why it often seems more important than the whole meaning of Christianity and often prompts this horrible, self-righteous behaviour that is actively detrimental to all the Christ stands for.

It matters 1000%.

To deny that Christ is truely 100% God and truely 100% Man is to deny Christianity. It is an Ancient Heresy called Arianism....

It's not even a question.

BTW ~ I haven't read anything but the O.P. ~ Sorry if someone else already gave this answer.

Forgive me.....

 

[Debi1967]

*raises ironic eyebrow* I suppose you consider 1600 years "recent".

No but as OrthodoxyUSA has said the debate over Christ's Divinity is nothing "recent" either.

We go back to the Early Church because they upheld for us the core beliefs handed down by the Apostles, themselves. Thus, even though the OP says "recent" this is not a recent thoughtline and our responses from then are the same now.

Christ was Divine then and He is still Divine now, nothing has changed that.

 

[BigChrisfilm]

Hi,

[rant] Over recent years there has been an upsurge in the debate over whether Christ was:

A) God and the Messiah or

B) The Messiah, but not God

This debate had caused much anger and has split apart the Christian community with various sides claiming that others are not "Christian" because they believe in a different type of Trinity or because they believe that Christ was only God after a certain event etc. etc. It has also split apart religions with one of the main disagreements between Islam and Christianity being the divinity of Christ. Islam of course believing that Christ is not God.

All of this seems to prevent good, it blocks the real meaning of what Christ does - he is saving every one of us! Isn't that truly amazing?? He is saving the entire human race and taking all sin upon himself! Wow!
Instead of focusing on this and actively spreading the word and doing as Christ showed us we are backstabbing, name calling and becoming several groups of supremacists each believing that they are the right way, this is not Christ's way. Christ's way is to show love and compassion to all, regardless of petty theological beliefs (case in point, Samaritans) and differences. All he would care about is that we are spreading his base word, that of eternal love and safety open to all.

Why all the hate associated with this relatively small theological detail and all theology in general?

[/rant]

Note: I am not saying don't discuss theology, I myself really enjoy a theological debate. However, I do not see why it often seems more important than the whole meaning of Christianity and often prompts this horrible, self-righteous behaviour that is actively detrimental to all the Christ stands for.

Yes, more than anything has ever mattered in this world.

 

[BigChrisfilm]

This doesn't have anything to do with those Anglican conventions does it? When your faith stops professing belief in Christ, it's time to start questioning your faith. I will say no more on the subject.

 

[Melethiel]

No but as OrthodoxyUSA has said the debate over Christ's Divinity is nothing "recent" either.

We go back to the Early Church because they upheld for us the core beliefs handed down by the Apostles, themselves. Thus, even though the OP says "recent" this is not a recent thoughtline and our responses from then are the same now.

Christ was Divine then and He is still Divine now, nothing has changed that.

My point exactly.

 

[Debi1967]

I think you have a valid point that we should not grumble against each other.

James 5:9 NET. Do not grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be judged. See, the judge stands before the gates!

But where I think you are wrong is in thinking that the deeds of Christ are more important that He is. The deeds were to show who he is, their very purpose is to witness to his divinity.

And we know that to honor Jesus is to honor the Father, if you don't honor Jesus you can't honor the Father, you have nothing.

John 5:19-23 NET. So Jesus answered them, "I tell you the solemn truth, the Son can do nothing on his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise. (20) For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he does, and will show him greater deeds than these, so that you will be amazed. (21) For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. (22) Furthermore, the Father does not judge anyone, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, (23) so that all people will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

To be courteous and gracious is not the same as accepting anything and everything as the truth.

Marv

John also started out by saying .....

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

 

[Debi1967]

Jam 5:8 Be you therefore also patient and strengthen your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
Jam 5:9 Grudge not, brethren, one against another, that you may not be judged. Behold the judge standeth before the door.
Jam 5:10 Take, my brethren, for example of suffering evil, of labour and patience, the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.

This much is true too but at the time James was also talking to those that believed in the Divinity of Christ. He is not speaking to the unbeliever at the time but the believer and issuing them a warning. If we go to end of the chapter we see more of this applied.

Jam 1:21 Wherefore, casting away all uncleanness and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jam 1:23 For if a man be a hearer of the word and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass.
Jam 1:24 For he beheld himself and went his way and presently forgot what manner of man he was.
Jam 1:25 But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work: this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James is talking to them and trying to correct them in their patterns, so that they become more like Christ so as to keep their Salvation in tact.

This takes belief in the one that gave His Life for us so that we may be Saved to begin with, and the Fact that He is God.

 

[DaveS]

I would point out that I said there has been a recent upsurge in the debate, not that the debate has recently started.

 

[DaveS]

Sorry for double post.

This doesn't have anything to do with those Anglican conventions does it? When your faith stops professing belief in Christ, it's time to start questioning your faith. I will say no more on the subject.

*raises an ironic eyebrow*
(my turn! )

i'm sorry people responded to you so harshly, you have an important point despite the unfortunate way you posed it. Yes, it matters that we realize Jesus is not just a man but God. BigNorsk hit the nail in post #23. At the same time the lack of respect, care and love-the outright hate that Christians often show each other is not bringing glory to the Lord. You are right, a christian that hates is exactly opposite of what Jesus was saying on the cross or wants each of us to say as his representative. Jesus actually said that loving God with our whole selves and loving our neighbors as we love our selves is the point of all the laws in the Bible.

Yeah I realise that - I should have picked a slightly less controversial subject such as universalism to really spark a 'does it matter?' debate... I have been mixing in liberal circles recently and it has altered my perception of what could be considered too controversial.

The nicene creed. That is the line in the sand.

The Nicene creed was not constructed by Christ remember, it is a set of beliefs most prevailent at the time (consiquently today also). Who knows if it is correct (back to the 'does it matter?')?

 

[Debi1967]

I would point out that I said there has been a recent upsurge in the debate, not that the debate has recently started.

I don't believe this means that very same things that we used hundreds of years ago to debate the heresy that Christ is not Divine should not be used today. In fact I think that it means that we should use them all the more to show that nothing has changed in Christian teaching and that Christian Teaching itself will not change just because certain people wish it to.

 

[Debi1967]

Sorry for double post.



*raises an ironic eyebrow*
(my turn! )



Yeah I realise that - I should have picked a slightly less controversial subject such as universalism to really spark a 'does it matter?' debate... I have been mixing in liberal circles recently and it has altered my perception of what could be considered too controversial.



The Nicene creed was not constructed by Christ remember, it is a set of beliefs most prevailent at the time (consiquently today also). Who knows if it is correct (back to the 'does it matter?')?

This would lead to the question does the Divinity of Christ matter and therefore this then leads to our belief in the Holy Trinity as a whole....

Yes this matters to a Christian. Just as it was defined back then to define who was in fact a Christian and who was not, it is still used today to define the concepts believed by Christians, that is that God is Trinity... If Christ is not Divine then you have taken away a part of the Trinity and then therefore are no longer trinitartian.

 

[DaveS]

I don't believe this means that very same things that we used hundreds of years ago to debate the heresy that Christ is not Divine should not be used today. In fact I think that it means that we should use them all the more to show that nothing has changed in Christian teaching and that Christian Teaching itself will not change just because certain people wish it to.

Yeah I know - I was only responding as some people seemed to think that I had thought the divinity debate to be a new thing rather than an old thing recently rehashed.

This would lead to the question does the Divinity of Christ matter and therefore this then leads to our belief in the Holy Trinity as a whole....

Yes this matters to a Christian. Just as it was defined back then to define who was in fact a Christian and who was not, it is still used today to define the concepts believed by Christians, that is that God is Trinity... If Christ is not Divine then you have taken away a part of the Trinity and then therefore are no longer trinitartian.

But why the Nicean? Why the Athanasian? Apostles?

A really good idea would be to pay a team of scholars to go through every early Christian writing and amass the most common beliefs. Even then it could be wrong!
I still hold that we should judge a Christian by themselves, not their theology.

 

[Debi1967]

Yeah I know - I was only responding as some people seemed to think that I had thought the divinity debate to be a new thing rather than an old thing recently rehashed.



But why the Nicean? Why the Athanasian? Apostles?

A really good idea would be to pay a team of scholars to go through every early Christian writing and amass the most common beliefs. Even then it could be wrong!
I still hold that we should judge a Christian by themselves, not their theology.

Part of your FAITH in Christ is what you believe.... Do you believe that Christ was Divine or not and is this part of your Faith in Him?

Thus Dave, I hate to tell you but those with knowledge of Christ will be accountable for what they have accepted and rejected .... this too we are taught.

What do you think by the way that the apostles taught but Doctrine and dogma which is what theology is.

 

[DaveS]

Part of your FAITH in Christ is what you believe.... Do you believe that Christ was Divine or not and is this part of your Faith in Him?

Thus Dave, I hate to tell you but those with knowledge of Christ will be accountable for what they have accepted and rejected .... this too we are taught.

What do you think by the way that the apostles taught but Doctrine and dogma which is what theology is.

My FAITH is one of love for Jesus, not for the beliefs of a group of people sat down to discuss just exactly what Christianity is so that it would succeed as an organisation.

I would also like to point out that Christ died for us so that we all may live - do you think He would be so petty as to look through our theological folder and condemn you for getting something wrong even though you may love like love has never loved before?

We are going back to that mountain moving again.