Does the Divinity of Christ really matter?

[DaveS]

Hi,

[rant] Over recent years there has been an upsurge in the debate over whether Christ was:

A) God and the Messiah or

B) The Messiah, but not God

This debate had caused much anger and has split apart the Christian community with various sides claiming that others are not "Christian" because they believe in a different type of Trinity or because they believe that Christ was only God after a certain event etc. etc. It has also split apart religions with one of the main disagreements between Islam and Christianity being the divinity of Christ. Islam of course believing that Christ is not God.

All of this seems to prevent good, it blocks the real meaning of what Christ does - he is saving every one of us! Isn't that truly amazing?? He is saving the entire human race and taking all sin upon himself! Wow!
Instead of focusing on this and actively spreading the word and doing as Christ showed us we are backstabbing, name calling and becoming several groups of supremacists each believing that they are the right way, this is not Christ's way. Christ's way is to show love and compassion to all, regardless of petty theological beliefs (case in point, Samaritans) and differences. All he would care about is that we are spreading his base word, that of eternal love and safety open to all.

Why all the hate associated with this relatively small theological detail and all theology in general?

[/rant]

Note: I am not saying don't discuss theology, I myself really enjoy a theological debate. However, I do not see why it often seems more important than the whole meaning of Christianity and often prompts this horrible, self-righteous behaviour that is actively detrimental to all the Christ stands for.

 

[OObi]

Yes it does matter. This is kind of an absurd question if you don't mind me saying. How does it not matter? Sure, the plan of slavation is asking Yeshua for forgivness, but what Yeshua are you asking?

If you say it doesn't matter, then could I believe that Yeshua was just a man and only a man, and ask for forgivness? Can I believe He was a cat and ask Him for forgivness?

 

[INRI2]

if Christ was not God, whats the point in listening to him?

If christ is not God, what hope do we have

If Christ is not God, what faith do we have

If Christ is not God, what future do we have

 

[Lynn73]

Yes it matters because the Scriptures clearly reveal His divinity. You have to make up your mind whether you want to believe the Bible or please people. Tell me, who is qualified to take upon Himself the sins of every human being who has ever or will ever live. If He's not divine, then He can't pay the price. As someone said, the questions is absurd.

 

[DaveS]

Yes it does matter. This is kind of an absurd question if you don't mind me saying. How does it not matter? Sure, the plan of slavation is asking Yeshua for forgivness, but what Yeshua are you asking?

If you say it doesn't matter, then could I believe that Yeshua was just a man and only a man, and ask for forgivness? Can I believe He was a cat and ask Him for forgivness?

If you want to. If I am to believe parts of scripture then all of us are part divine - we all contain the Holy Spirit.

In this post I was using the divinity of Christ as an example to show that these certain theological questions really should not get in the way of faith as they so often do.

if Christ was not God, whats the point in listening to him?

If christ is not God, what hope do we have

If Christ is not God, what faith do we have

If Christ is not God, what future do we have

But Christ came from God did he not and still holds the awesome task of saving the world? That is hope, faith and 'lend a ear' worthy enough and gives us plenty of future.

Does it really matter enough to reject people from the human made exclusive club?

 

[light_eclipseca]

Yes, because if Jesus were not God, then it was not right that the disciples worshipped him. Jesus did not stop the disciples from worshipping him, and thus he would have been making it alright to worship beings that are not divine. And it isn't right to worhsip things that are not divine, even if they are holy things, such as angels.

 

[BigNorsk]

Well here is where I think you are going wrong.

I can't figure out where you are getting your beliefs. They certainly aren't from the Bible. If I understand you, someone is supposed to be able to reject that Jesus is God and yet it doesn't matter because everyone is saved anyway.

What is your source? Other than a feel-good philosophy book, there's nothing to support your beliefs. They are just your beliefs.

You aren't the standard, I'm not the standard, God is the Standard.

What did He say?

He doesn't say everyone is saved.

He does say Jesus is fully God and fully man.

And he says that those who believe shall be saved. Does that mean people can just believe anything? No, it means those who believe God.

Right now you are calling God a liar. Is that belief? All of us are not part divine, those who do not believe do not receive the Holy Spirit.

Now there are certainly things not clearly revealed by God, but there is much that is.

There is really no room for debate about Jesus being God, the Messiah. If he was not God, he was the anti-Christ. There really isn't any room in between those. He claimed to be God, his followers believe him to be God and so on. If he isn't God, he is a horrible blasphemer the most unholy of unholy.

There is not way to take the Bible and turn Jesus into a good man and only a good man. To do so isn't Christianity, it's human philosophy and nothing more, a false religion.

You had better realize that everything isn't a shade of grey, there is very real light and very real darkness, and standing in the dark and calling it light doesn't help anything.

Marv

 

[DaveS]

I can't figure out where you are getting your beliefs. They certainly aren't from the Bible. If I understand you, someone is supposed to be able to reject that Jesus is God and yet it doesn't matter because everyone is saved anyway.

Yup.

Although I personally do believe in the divinity of Christ I cannot see why so many people get so hung up over it!

As far as I see it Christ's err amazingness was in his actions, not necessarily in what Christ was - whether he was 100% human, God, both, whatever.
Consider that Christ came down to Earth as God, lived a life of 70 years as a carpenter, made a few people happy with new chairs and then "died". What would set him apart in the world's eyes? Nothing.
However, Christ came (in whatever form) and did this amazing thing - he is saving all of us! For that, does it really matter about the theological details? Will not God know his followers even if they did not quite get it right (whatever that right actually is)?

Right now you are calling God a liar. Is that belief? All of us are not part divine, those who do not believe do not receive the Holy Spirit.

Ah, universalist speaking! That is quite another debate... in this I am trying to say that theological differences should not get in the way of the Word.

 

[PETE_]

If you want to. If I am to believe parts of scripture then all of us are part divine - we all contain the Holy Spirit.

In this post I was using the divinity of Christ as an example to show that these certain theological questions really should not get in the way of faith as they so often do.
Certain aspects should not be, but the divinity of Christ is not debatable for Christians. If He were not God, as He claimed to be, He would be a false prophet like Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. A liar and a fraud, not worthy of our praise.

I believe that God will save who He wills.
My postions on certain areas have changed as I have matured in Christ, so I assume others will have the same experience. But we should not allow the essentials to be destoyed in the name of peace.


But Christ came from God did he not and still holds the awesome task of saving the world? That is hope, faith and 'lend a ear' worthy enough and gives us plenty of future.

Does it really matter enough to reject people from the human made exclusive club?

--------

 

[ChristianSoldier07]

I believe it was Josh MacDowell who said: "Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar, or our Lord."

The significance is that if Jesus was not God, than his death has meant nothing; he would have been a sinner no diferant that the rest of us, thus unable to pay for our sins.

 

[lmnop9876]

the Deity of Christ does matter, and it is not debatable. do not believe in it, and you are not a Christian. no matter how much we agree with a group, if we disagree on the full Deity of Christ and His equality with the Father and the Holy Spirit, than we cannot be brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi,

[rant] Over recent years there has been an upsurge in the debate over whether Christ was:

A) God and the Messiah or

B) The Messiah, but not God

This debate had caused much anger and has split apart the Christian community with various sides claiming that others are not "Christian" because they believe in a different type of Trinity or because they believe that Christ was only God after a certain event etc. etc. It has also split apart religions with one of the main disagreements between Islam and Christianity being the divinity of Christ. Islam of course believing that Christ is not God.

All of this seems to prevent good, it blocks the real meaning of what Christ does - he is saving every one of us! Isn't that truly amazing?? He is saving the entire human race and taking all sin upon himself! Wow!
Instead of focusing on this and actively spreading the word and doing as Christ showed us we are backstabbing, name calling and becoming several groups of supremacists each believing that they are the right way, this is not Christ's way. Christ's way is to show love and compassion to all, regardless of petty theological beliefs (case in point, Samaritans) and differences. All he would care about is that we are spreading his base word, that of eternal love and safety open to all.

Why all the hate associated with this relatively small theological detail and all theology in general?

[/rant]

Note: I am not saying don't discuss theology, I myself really enjoy a theological debate. However, I do not see why it often seems more important than the whole meaning of Christianity and often prompts this horrible, self-righteous behaviour that is actively detrimental to all the Christ stands for.

Well, let's turn to this creed regarding the Trinity and Divinity of Christ . . it is the best definition/explanation ever given . .and this was about 1600 years ago . . see how the Early Church would have answered your post:

The Creed of Athanasius

The Athanasian Creed is that latest of the ecumenical creeds, dating back to the early dark ages. Though seldom used in worship, it is one of the clearest definitions of the Trinity and the incarnation ever written.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.​

And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity

in Unity,
neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son,
and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one,
the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son,
and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate,
and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible,
and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal,
and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals,
but one eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated,
but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty,
and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties,
but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God,
and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods,
but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord,
and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords,
but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge ever y
Person by Himself to be both God and Lord,
so we are forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, there be three Gods,
or three Lords.
The Father is made of none,
neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone,
not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father [and of the Son],
neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons;
one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or l ess
than another;
but the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid,
the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved
must thus think of the Trinity.​

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation
that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ .
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess,
that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;
and Man, of the Substance of His Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Man,
of a reasonable soul in human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father, as touching His Godhead;
and inferior to the Father, as touching His Manhood.
Who, although He be God and Man,
yet He is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh,
but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance,
but by unity of Person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man,
so God and Man is one Christ.
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell,
rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty,
from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise with their bodies
and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting;
and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully,
he cannot be saved.​

http://www.holybible.com/resources/athanasius_creed.htm







​

​

I think it is very, very clear . . it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!



Peace

 

[Melethiel]

Over recent years there has been an upsurge in the debate over whether Christ was:

A) God and the Messiah or

B) The Messiah, but not God

*raises ironic eyebrow* I suppose you consider 1600 years ago "recent".

 

[OObi]

If you believe in Christ but reject His unique deity, you might have a very nice religion, but can you call it Christianity?

John says in John 4:24, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth." In other words, there are some fundamental things you have got to have right about God or at least not be willing to repudiate. You can learn them, but once you repudiate them you are repudiating the very God you are saying you are seeking to worship. This is a God who is one God in essence and in substance, but has three persons, Father, Son and the Spirit; and the second person, called the Logos in John 1, takes on humanity, becomes a real man such that Jesus Christ is one person with two natures--the full nature of divinity and the full nature of humanity. And if you reject such a thing, I don't see how you can then say I have put my faith in Jesus because the Jesus that you put your faith in is not the Jesus of the Scriptures, and it is only the Jesus of the Scriptures who really saves you.

Jesus warned in Matthew 24 that one characteristic of the end times is the fact that false messiahs would come and claim to be someone special and mislead many. And I think that false messiahs are individuals who claim to be messiah or else substitute definitions for the Jesus of Scripture. I think the denial of the deity of Christ is such a substitution.

The Scripture teaches clearly not only that any old god won't do--and we see that in statements like Exodus 20:2-3, "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me." The first commandment in fact. We must have the correct God before us. By the same token, any old Jesus won't do either. Jesus says in John 8:24, "Unless you believe that I Am, you shall die in your sins." According to Jesus it was very critical that we have a particular belief about him, and if we don't then we are lost in our sins.

Shalom, OObi

 

[freespiritchurch]

Dave, I think you sort of have a point--to the extent that a lot of Christians don't really understand what it means to say that Jesus is God, and live good Christian lives. But at the same time, if you say that Jesus isn't God, then you're saying that God is not just.

Let's assume that we all agree that Scripture tells us that Jesus died for our sins. In some way, what Jesus suffered helped us.

Now Jesus is either God, or not God. If Jesus is not God, then he's a creature who, for no very obvious reason, was chosen to suffer for the sins of other creatures. What the heck kind of sense does that make? This has been called "cosmic child abuse," and with good reason. A god who makes one person suffer for other people is not a god I want to worship. But if Jesus is God, then God is taking the suffering for our sins on himself. This is not child abuse; this is God acting to save us. That's a completely different thing.

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Hi,

[rant] Over recent years there has been an upsurge in the debate over whether Christ was:

A) God and the Messiah or

B) The Messiah, but not God

This debate had caused much anger and has split apart the Christian community with various sides claiming that others are not "Christian" because they believe in a different type of Trinity or because they believe that Christ was only God after a certain event etc. etc. It has also split apart religions with one of the main disagreements between Islam and Christianity being the divinity of Christ. Islam of course believing that Christ is not God.

All of this seems to prevent good, it blocks the real meaning of what Christ does - he is saving every one of us! Isn't that truly amazing?? He is saving the entire human race and taking all sin upon himself! Wow!
Instead of focusing on this and actively spreading the word and doing as Christ showed us we are backstabbing, name calling and becoming several groups of supremacists each believing that they are the right way, this is not Christ's way. Christ's way is to show love and compassion to all, regardless of petty theological beliefs (case in point, Samaritans) and differences. All he would care about is that we are spreading his base word, that of eternal love and safety open to all.

Why all the hate associated with this relatively small theological detail and all theology in general?

[/rant]

Note: I am not saying don't discuss theology, I myself really enjoy a theological debate. However, I do not see why it often seems more important than the whole meaning of Christianity and often prompts this horrible, self-righteous behaviour that is actively detrimental to all the Christ stands for.

I think the divinity of Christ does matter. It is in the power of the resurrection that He defied death. He didn't just "die", he rose again and that is the crux of Christianity. If he were not divine, he would be just someone who did something good and there would be no power to change lives and claim victory over sin and death.

CC&E

 

[thereselittleflower]

Without the divinity of Christ, you do not have Christianity.


Peace

 

[eoe]

It seems to me what this post boils down to is a desire to water down Christianity in order to make it more palateable for those that have certain issues with it.

(Jude 1:3) Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

(Jude 1:4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Acts 20:28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

(Acts 20:29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

(Acts 20:30) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

(2 Peter 2:1) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

(2 Peter 2:2) And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

(2 Peter 2:3) And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

(2 Peter 2:4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(2 Peter 2:5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

(2 Peter 2:6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

(2 Peter 2:7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(2 Peter 2:8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

(2 Peter 2:9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

(2 Peter 2:10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

 

[vanshan]

Without Christ's divinity there is no salvation. His ability to do what He accomplished by destroying death and sanctifying human nature could only occur because He is fully God and fully man. This is an essential belief and the core of all Christian belief. Take it away and you have nothing greater than any other moral, religious, or ethical system in the world.

Basil

 

[Dondi]

I don't see how you can read the bible and not come to the conclusion that it teaches that Christ is God in the flesh. Now I might believe that it's possible that someone could get saved and yet be ignorant of Christ's deity. But once one delves into the scriptural teaching and studies the matter about the nature of Christ, one ought to come to a clear conclusion that Jesus is God the Son. There are just too many scriptures attesting to this. To deny this is to deny the Lord Jesus Christ in who He is. To much is given, much will be required.