Does the devil have the best music?

[salamacum]

I know this discussion has been done before but it just came home to me this morning after a (very short) encounter with my worship leader.
Me - have you heard of Echolyn?
Him - Oh, yes, you like wierd stuff don't you (euphemism for not really suitable for Christians)
Me - well just think about the musicianship. Go onto the internet, use youtube and enter echolyn headright live.
Him - (silence)

He was a bass player in a band (hardly something you'd lock your daughters up for), but sometimes I think he's a bit embarrassed that his musicianship has actually taken a back seat (justifiably in his opinion) to leading worship.

It's just I think even the best Christian stuff (that's meant to be for listening to, is SO derivative). Neal Morse - he's exploited his prog-rock background to produce intrsumental stuff, but its all sounds like it's been borrowed from somewhere and re-presented for a pagan hard-rock teenage audience.
If its not worship then its evangelism. But where's the 'shiver-down the spine' musical exquisiteness of "In Memorial" of Echolyn. A work like that actually make me grateful for eternal life as the band spells out what a life without God means. (and does something original and timeless at the same time)

 

[JCFantasy23]

I don't think a person needs to just listen to Christian music. Personally I think most of it is horrible and don't listen to it. I don't think the devil owns any music either though.

 

[hiTy5]

Interesting question, interesting reply. I only used to listen to what is termed secular music. I liked different genres from a-z. I haven't heard of Echolyn. I liked P.O.D before I even found out about Sonny being a believer.
After, I was re-born so to speak, I only wanted to listen to artists who either spoke of Christ in their lyrics or identified themselves as Christian. At first take, I tried the radio, almost forcing myself to listen to some of the music as it seemed tasteless compared to what I used to listen to - no 'bump'. However, whenever they acknowledged Jesus, I was so happy, it didnt really matter. But not content with the radios playlists, I started to search deeper into the Christian music industry. My faith and understanding were not strong. Some artists I brushed aside as just using the 'christian' industry for their own gain, quoting biblical references to get in - being unable to get into mainstream because they weren't good. thats harsh, but I feared 'fake' christians as my faith was not strong and I didnt want my fire inside me to die by yoking myself with fake believers.
So I searched and searched and started to get a good idea of who was there for good and who was just there.
The non-conclusive result - I've found there to be really truly talented musicians who sing their heart to Lord. From the inside out, their music is enjoyable. The type of servants King David would have had singing the psalms.
However, I cant afford to keep buying their music on itunes and there isnt a free radio station I know that plays constant good christian music, so....i dont know.....

 

[salamacum]

Thanks for that - interesting.
Maybe I expect too much on the music front.
As a bit of an aside,

I know men who won't sing many choruses.

Mostly it's to do with making promises that they aren't sure they can keep.
Some of these men are what I would call mature in faith....

 

[salamacum]

I don't think a person needs to just listen to Christian music. Personally I think most of it is horrible and don't listen to it. I don't think the devil owns any music either though.

Why horrible?

 

[CaraCallay]

I know plenty of good Christian bands, and plenty of good secular bands. I don't really think a person's faith has a direct influence on how well they play their instrument and how good their music is.

 

[salamacum]

Cara - then can you recommend a really good Christian release / album that would match something like Echolyn's latest?

 

[DennisTate]

Why horrible?

I ran into a rather intriguing explanation of how music was used to get things twisted up that was given during a near death experience!

Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com:

....
"

Music surrounded me. It came from all directions. Its harmonic beauty unlike earthly vocal or instrumental sounds was totally undistorted. It flowed unobtrusively like a glassy river, quietly worshipful, excitingly edifying, and totally comforting. It provided a reassuring type of comfort much like a protective blanket that whispered peace and love. I had never sensed anything like it. Perhaps "angelic" would describe it.

This music was "sounding" within my head, not from an eardrum. Obviously it was not airborne. Most unusual to me was the absence of any "beat." Then I realized that without "time" this heavenly music could have no beat which is a measure of time! I was hearing harmonic perfection, undistorted by any interposed medium between me and its source, as heard mind-to-mind. I could wait no longer to ask:

"Jesus, tell me about this wondrous music all about me. Who is the composer? How is it made? From whence does it come? It is gorgeous!"

I was not disappointed when he began his answer by again asking me:
"Didn't you read my book? Repeatedly it exhorts my children to praise me with music from strings, trumpets, timbrels and voices. It is and was the prime communication of worship and praise and thanksgiving. Since I am the Creator, I am the composer of heaven's music which you are hearing."

Music became the resulting harmony from all of our creations, both of matter and energy. All resonated in unison with us. The elementary form was of and from and in ourselves. I might explain it as a triad of sub-electronic energy particles with and around which We constructed everything in our universe. The wave-forms we called light; whereas the material-forms we called dust of the Earth and water and air. Out of these, and into these, we created animals and birds and fishes and vegetable life to support them. Over these we created a mankind to supervise them as our appointed custodians made in our special image to act for us on Earth!"

Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.
"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed �adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony �sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!"

(It was clear enough that God's "heaven-music" was ever-present as a permeating reminder of the purity and power in its Creator. As God's methods of communication are headlined by music, even so is Satan's method of distorting its language to deceive through his "rock"! Jesus had clearly implied already that one of his final missions would be to destroy the very "works of the devil" which include all music that fails to honor the Lord." (Dr. Richard Eby)

near-death.com/forum/nde/000/91.html

 

[Urbanredneck]

I was listening to a non-christian band member and he discussed how he thought Phil Keagy was the best guitar player he'd ever heard.

Also some musicians I've talked to have played for both Christian and non-Christian bands.

Finally I think sometimes "Christian" bands feel hemmed in and want to sing about other things like girls and cars.

 

[Peripatetic]

Just catching up on this thread. An echolyn reference?? I don't see those on CF every day! What a great band... I actually knew those guys back in the mid-to-late 90s. Actually, they are an example that I sometimes use for "a band that is Christian but not a Christian band". At one point, they were on record as saying that they were all Christians, and there were certainly some lyrical references in the earlier albums (Velveteen Rabbit, One Voice, My Dear Wormwood, etc.). Not sure if that is still the case, but it was at one time. I think the subtle messages are more effective at reaching seekers and those who aren't yet Christian.

But then, I'm also a firm believer that secular music is OK too. It has played a significant role in my life. God has "spoken" to me through some very unlikely songs throughout the years!

 

[salamacum]

In Memorial - a final statement repeated in great drama at the end.

"Take a handful of seeds and a mouthful of dirt
Lie down and become a garden"

Is that really the best that faces anyone that does not have eternal life? Of course it is. And if secular listeners take this on board then they have been 'pre-evangelised' and seen their need.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

I just listened to some Echolyn for the first time, I had never heard of them, I thought it was diabolical music to be honest with you. Boring. If that's the best the devil can do I'm not really that worried about the devils music.

God Bless You.

PS: I dont say this to offend you in any way. I am a musician, I have played drums professionally in secular bands and in church. Try Gerry Garcia for musician ship on Guitar. He led and headed the the world's largest pagan church, the Deadheads and practically single handedly ushered in the LCD age in America. One of his band contacts made and gave a away millions and millions of acid tabs.

Satan is a musical instrument, God made Him that way, so he is most likely the best musician in the universe. But still cant ever be th best as its a counterfeit of Gods music which must be better. Ive heard some pretty amazing salvation army brass bands bro.

Fast forward to the guitar solos, 2.26 and 4.38 and 7.10http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv7DY27aPyk

What do you think? The drummers seems to be on mandrax or something, half asleep. But the other guys are pretty amazing.

Or this base player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jr3x4oJrDs

This is unreal. Best musos in the world bar none in my opinion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko8oC7TQUq8

 

[salamacum]

Funkydundy,

am I offended - no of course not. It's a good post. My attitude is that we should be able to say anything as long as it is not gratuitously calculated to offend.
A couple of things - are you saying that we shouldn't be surprised that the best music IS the Devil's. Because we may need to revisit our attitudes to classical music. I know people in our church would have said Beethoven's 5th or even some of Litzt's strange stuff or music from composers who were masons , was OK to listen to or go to concerts but listening to the best of modern music was dangerous and 'devilish'.
If the 'best music' is likely to be of the devil then we should stop aspiring to great musicianship ourselves for fear of being tempted or forced to play 'good music'.
What about my opinion of Neal Morse. He has no trouble recycling the best of progressive rock for a mixed audience.
But maybe he should have gone acoustic and removed all the wilder, ambitious stuff.
Neal Morse - he's exploited his prog-rock background to produce intrsumental stuff, but its all sounds like it's been borrowed from somewhere and re-presented for a pagan hard-rock teenage audience.
And yes, I liked Dark Star by the grateful Dead. A long time ago. And I was a Christian. But I never listened to the lyrics nor did I have any interest in their lifestyle. But again, I'm just talking about the music not the context.
I suppose we have to accept that bad music doesn't become good just by having gospel lyrics.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

Funkydundy,

am I offended - no of course not. It's a good post. My attitude is that we should be able to say anything as long as it is not gratuitously calculated to offend.
A couple of things - are you saying that we shouldn't be surprised that the best music IS the Devil's. Because we may need to revisit our attitudes to classical music. I know people in our church would have said Beethoven's 5th or even some of Litzt's strange stuff or music from composers who were masons , was OK to listen to or go to concerts but listening to the best of modern music was dangerous and 'devilish'.
If the 'best music' is likely to be of the devil then we should stop aspiring to great musicianship ourselves for fear of being tempted or forced to play 'good music'.
What about my opinion of Neal Morse. He has no trouble recycling the best of progressive rock for a mixed audience.
But maybe he should have gone acoustic and removed all the wilder, ambitious stuff.
Neal Morse - he's exploited his prog-rock background to produce intrsumental stuff, but its all sounds like it's been borrowed from somewhere and re-presented for a pagan hard-rock teenage audience.
And yes, I liked Dark Star by the grateful Dead. A long time ago. And I was a Christian. But I never listened to the lyrics nor did I have any interest in their lifestyle. But again, I'm just talking about the music not the context.
I suppose we have to accept that bad music doesn't become good just by having gospel lyrics.

If you are a musician then aspire to be the best you can be and give glory to the Lord. One could argue that mankind invented music. I haven't seen the devil making a guitar lately have you?

God bless you.

 

[TheApostleJohn]

I've come to the opinion that God owns all music, even if the people who made it wish he didn't.

 

[Eric Hibbert]

I know this discussion has been done before but it just came home to me this morning after a (very short) encounter with my worship leader.
Me - have you heard of Echolyn?
Him - Oh, yes, you like wierd stuff don't you (euphemism for not really suitable for Christians)
Me - well just think about the musicianship. Go onto the internet, use youtube and enter echolyn headright live.
Him - (silence)

He was a bass player in a band (hardly something you'd lock your daughters up for), but sometimes I think he's a bit embarrassed that his musicianship has actually taken a back seat (justifiably in his opinion) to leading worship.

It's just I think even the best Christian stuff (that's meant to be for listening to, is SO derivative). Neal Morse - he's exploited his prog-rock background to produce intrsumental stuff, but its all sounds like it's been borrowed from somewhere and re-presented for a pagan hard-rock teenage audience.
If its not worship then its evangelism. But where's the 'shiver-down the spine' musical exquisiteness of "In Memorial" of Echolyn. A work like that actually make me grateful for eternal life as the band spells out what a life without God means. (and does something original and timeless at the same time)

If you mean "Is secular music generally better than Gospel/Christian music, then, yes. But I don't consider that a work of the Devil. I just consider that the work of uninformed and lazy Christians.

 

[korvus]

It's not the devil that makes music, is *people* the make music. Yes the devil may influence some musicians to make wrong moves and make music that's 'satanic' to please the emo teen crowd, but music just comes from people and it's just that.

There's been plenty music that's inherently Christian that follows it's own path, and we Christians don't need to perceive ourselves as always artistically inferior to our non-Christian counterparts.

Anyone, no matter their faith, can be capable of forging their own artistic path and be 'inspired'. We Christians really need to get over this artistic inferiority complex we seem to be having and muster up some courage in these fields, for good justice.

 

[Peripatetic]

I find it interesting that some people put music into one of only two categories: Christian or evil. It would be like saying, "I can't look at that landscape painting because it isn't Christian." Or, "I can't read that poem because it isn't about God." Art forms usually express emotions. I'm very glad we have praise and worship songs, but I'm glad we have songs that capture other emotions and life experiences too.

 

[salamacum]

Funkyfundy,

Quick question - is Beethoven's ninth (esp the great second movement) of the devil? In what way does God get any glory, unless the listener gives it to Him?

 

[Charlemagne4]

I think evangelical culture is very authoritarian and I think it squelches the coolness out of everything, that is why it seems like it produces very little original music scenes. There are some exceptions. I do not know of many Christian bands that are reocgnized in the secular world, sufjan stevens is, I used to listen to norma jean, I'm sure there are others, but the secular music world is about 10000000 times bigger than the Christian music world.

Most evangelicals were not even allowed to listen to music that had guitars though I think 40 years ago.