Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment for unbelievers?

Tariki · Nov 25, 2011

Montalban said:
Absolutely. That's a truism. So what?

I made no such claim. For one thing my 'version' of Christianity doesn't rely solely on the Bible. So I wouldn't go near to saying that.

Yet you're the one disputing

Good grief Montalban, go back to the beginning of this exchange.

Really. I think we must be at cross purposes.

Timothew · Nov 25, 2011

spirit1st said:
Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You know Jesus Suffered before the foundation of the earth was made!
Foundation of the earth is the planets that hold us in place!
He saw it all!He hates sin!Yet allowed it all to take place to gain a family !

He suffered seeing all this evil that was going to take place!All the suffering on earth!
not counted when He came into the flesh.Living a lonely sad life! With no one to talk with who understood! Plus being tortured ,have his beard torn out !Taking 39 hits on His back! being spit on and slapped around!
Then being nailed to the Cross All for You and me! Thank YOU LORD JESUS!

HE LOVES US MORE! Than we love ourselves!

Heb_12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

I have no fear of hell! I know He keeps me .I Do Not keep my self! Thank you LORD JESUS!

Good! For! You!
As you posted! Hell is not eternal torture! Because it was cast into the Lake of Fire! Which is the second death! The second death is death! Not eternal torment!

Timothew · Nov 25, 2011

And Here is the Scriptural Support why I don't believe in the fire torture pit.

Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,

The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

John 8:21

Then He said again to them, I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES

Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;

Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10

But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

Revelation 2:11b

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

Montalban · Nov 25, 2011

Tariki said:
Good grief Montalban, go back to the beginning of this exchange.

You want to go over this again?

Montalban · Nov 25, 2011

Timothew, you're mixing verses here.

For one thing you're talking about that there's no 'eternal pit', yet you offer

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

as a proof of this when it's not about that but avoiding that eternal torture

Further, you're straw-manning many here who don't believe in a 'pit', but hell.

Then you offer verses that actually refute your position such as

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Robban · Nov 25, 2011

Tariki said:
Antz, So the eternal fate of billions, whether annihilation, endless torment or - indeed - final felicity, is "hardly important"?

As I said before, there may well be a case made for WHY it has not been made clear. But to claim it is "hardly important" seems wide of the mark, at least to me.

Tariki, did not Churchill say,"Madam, for my troops, tea is more important than ammunition."
Have you got the teapot out today?

Montalban · Nov 25, 2011

Robban said:
Tariki, did not Churchill say,"Madam, for my troops, tea is more important than ammunition."
Have you got the teapot out today?

I'm A Little Teapot - YouTube

Tariki · Nov 25, 2011

Montalban said:
You want to go over this again?

No, once was certainly enough.....

I'll leave my Christian friends to argue amongst themselves as to the fate of the unredeemed and meanwhile give thanks that we Pure Landers do not have an infallible book to learn from.

Montalban · Nov 25, 2011

Tariki said:
No, once was certainly enough.....

Sighs with relief

Tariki said:
I'll leave my Christian friends to argue amongst themselves as to the fate of the unredeemed and meanwhile give thanks that we Pure Landers do not have an infallible book to learn from.

You do have such a book, only you don't choose to use it

Tariki · Nov 25, 2011

Robban said:
Tariki, did not Churchill say,"Madam, for my troops, tea is more important than ammunition."
Have you got the teapot out today?

Oh yes, the teapot - for an Englishman - is of prime importance. The Japanese may well have their tea ceremonies, but the perhaps less formal English ceremonies are far more profound!

Reminds me of the story told by Spike Milligan, of when, suffering from shell shock during his days in Italy, he was loaded into the back of an ambulance. And was given a cup of tea by someone unknown to him. I still remember the obvious depth of his sincerity when he spoke of his thanks to that unknown person when being interviewed on a TV chat show.

Tariki · Nov 25, 2011

Montalban said:
You do have such a book, only you don't choose to use it

Please be explicit.

Montalban · Nov 25, 2011

Tariki said:
Please be explicit.

You already alluded to it when you mentioned your Christian friends

Robban · Nov 25, 2011

Montalban said:
I'm A Little Teapot - YouTube

Haha, that was good, thanks Montalban.

Robban · Nov 25, 2011

Tariki said:
Oh yes, the teapot - for an Englishman - is of prime importance. The Japanese may well have their tea ceremonies, but the perhaps less formal English ceremonies are far more profound!

Reminds me of the story told by Spike Milligan, of when, suffering from shell shock during his days in Italy, he was loaded into the back of an ambulance. And was given a cup of tea by someone unknown to him. I still remember the obvious depth of his sincerity when he spoke of his thanks to that unknown person when being interviewed on a TV chat show.

So true, tis the simple things in life that make life worth living.

Montalban · Nov 25, 2011

Robban said:
Haha, that was good, thanks Montalban.

I suppose in the US it's "I'm a little coffee pot..."

Robban · Nov 25, 2011

Montalban said:
I suppose in the US it's "I'm a little coffee pot..."

Your an allright guy, but comparing to the US in wartime, it may have been, chewing gum,nylon stockings and a jukebox.

Montalban · Nov 25, 2011

Tariki said:
Oh yes, the teapot - for an Englishman - is of prime importance. The Japanese may well have their tea ceremonies, but the perhaps less formal English ceremonies are far more profound!

Reminds me of the story told by Spike Milligan, of when, suffering from shell shock during his days in Italy, he was loaded into the back of an ambulance. And was given a cup of tea by someone unknown to him. I still remember the obvious depth of his sincerity when he spoke of his thanks to that unknown person when being interviewed on a TV chat show.

I saw his daughter in an interview. (She was behind the series The Ratties)

She told of how when her father took her and her brother for a drive in the country (when they were kids), Spike tied them to the roof of the car and took them for a spin

Being kids, they thought it was great fun

Timothew · Nov 25, 2011

Montalban said:
Timothew, you're mixing verses here.

For one thing you're talking about that there's no 'eternal pit', yet you offer

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

as a proof of this when it's not about that but avoiding that eternal torture

Are you saying John 3:16 is about avoiding torture? whoever believes in Him shall not PERISH...Obviously there is no torture pit of hell, and I'm not mixing verses. John 3:16 contrasts perishing with eternal life and says nothing whatsoever about torture.

Further, you're straw-manning many here who don't believe in a 'pit', but hell.

I don't need to "straw-man" I just quote the bible and the position of eternal torment in hell is shown to be false.

Then you offer verses that actually refute your position such as

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Lake of Fire is the second death. This does not refute my position that the wages of sin are actual death. It confirms my position, that the lost are destroyed, they go to their death. Revelation 20:14 actually refutes your position, because you claim that the lost do not die the second death, but are kept alive in torment instead.

Tariki · Nov 25, 2011

Montalban said:
I saw his daughter in an interview. (She was behind the series The Ratties)

She told of how when her father took her and her brother for a drive in the country (when they were kids), Spike tied them to the roof of the car and took them for a spin

Being kids, they thought it was great fun

Being kids, it probably was!

Tariki · Nov 25, 2011

Montalban said:
You already alluded to it when you mentioned your Christian friends

Well, just needed confirmation given all the previous misconstruings........Anyway, given that my Christian friends are unable to actually come to any agreement on exactly what the book teaches, the fact it is considered "infallible" seems irrelevant.

And as I have sought to get across - but seem to fail - is that perhaps such has a meaning.

As the Pure Land "saint" Saichi once said, when asked what his delight was......

This world of delusion is my delight.
It contains the seeds of relishing the Dharma
Namu-amida-butsu is blooming everywhere!

Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment for unbelievers?

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