Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

Michael Collum said:

If we are more than conquerors .. then why is the christian walk treated as if we are mere soldiers?

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IF we are more than conquerors?. Is it debatable what God told us?

And why could not a soldier be a considered, a conquorer?




, Are we not called to be an overcomer of the world, the flesh and the devil?

Have we not been delivered from the power of darkness?

Are we not promised that sin shall not have dominion over us?

Has Jesus not promised that if we would continue in His words, we will walk free indeed?

Have we not been given armor and a sword and shield that promises to quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy?

Has our amazing God not promised us that He will not allow us to be tempted more than we can bear?

Do we not serve the God who promises to keep us from falling?

That is not just a conquorer, dear brother. That is MORE than a conquorer!

Blessings,

Gideon

I think it's easier to see if you change the question. Does the Father require Christ to be obedient? No, He doesn't.
He knows that Christ IS obedient because it is His nature to be obedient.

Does Christ have to struggle with temptation to sin? No. Because it is against His nature to sin. Temptation has no effect on Him. He already overcame sin.

Through faith in God's promise, I can access that exact same nature which is in Christ as MY OWN, and become just as obedient as Christ is, and just as immune to sin's temptation. As long as I remain in faith of God's promise.

What is being missed is that when we DO fail and give in to temptation, the resulting sinful action isn't where we failed. We failed in not staying in faith. Once we step outside faith in God's promise, temptation then has a foothold. The failure is in the lack of faith. The sinful action is merely the consequences of the real problem.

Obedience isn't something that we must add to our faith to remain saved. Obedience is the evidence that we ARE saved. Just as the apple is the evidence that the tree is an apple tree.

StephanieSomer said:

I think it's easier to see if you change the question. Does the Father require Christ to be obedient? No, He doesn't.
He knows that Christ IS obedient because it is His nature to be obedient.

Does Christ have to struggle with temptation to sin? No. Because it is against His nature to sin. Temptation has no effect on Him. He already overcame sin.

Through faith in God's promise, I can access that exact same nature which is in Christ as MY OWN, and become just as obedient as Christ is, and just as immune to sin's temptation. As long as I remain in faith of God's promise.

What is being missed is that when we DO fail and give in to temptation, the resulting sinful action isn't where we failed. We failed in not staying in faith. Once we step outside faith in God's promise, temptation then has a foothold. The failure is in the lack of faith. The sinful action is merely the consequences of the real problem.

Obedience isn't something that we must add to our faith to remain saved. Obedience is the evidence that we ARE saved. Just as the apple is the evidence that the tree is an apple tree.

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Stephanie, I cannot even convey well in words what a delight it is to read what you shared.

You are exactly right. I have said what you shared countless times, but to hear it from another, and for it to be spot on is amazing. May God continue to bless you with wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Many blessings,

Gideon

gideons300 said:

Stephanie, I cannot even convey well in words what a delight it is to read what you shared.

You are exactly right. I have said what you shared countless times, but to hear it from another, and for it to be spot on is amazing. May God continue to bless you with wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Many blessings,

Gideon

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It is my belief that the analogies which Paul used to explain salvation in the first 8 chapters of Romans made a great deal of sense to his readers. The problem is that languages change over time. And add to that translations and interpretations and the originally easily understood principles get covered up in mud. Different languages require different analogies to make the principles as easily understood. I hope this one has helped.

Biblicist2 said:

There's certainly a lot (in fact a very lot) of truth with your statement; but there are those times when some verses are so pointed and unequivocal that they stand out on their own:

NASB 1 Corinthians 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.​

along with...

NASB 1 Timothy 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.​

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I don't believe this is correct, as there are no verses that taken on their face value can be self evident, that's not how the Bible is to be read.

I'm not saying you're wrong in your interpretation, nor am I saying the OP is, but it's a dangerous practice to post verses that are self-evident without studying to show the pathway to reason in coming to a conclusion. For instance, turn the other cheek may seem self evident, but it's an idiom that is only evident through study.

Do I think God can use one verse and speak to someone? Sure He can, He can use a donkey if needed, or a mall sign, or the colour of the sky, but that's for that person and is a personal conviction.

StephanieSomer said:

I think it's easier to see if you change the question. Does the Father require Christ to be obedient? No, He doesn't.
He knows that Christ IS obedient because it is His nature to be obedient.

Does Christ have to struggle with temptation to sin? No. Because it is against His nature to sin. Temptation has no effect on Him. He already overcame sin.

Through faith in God's promise, I can access that exact same nature which is in Christ as MY OWN, and become just as obedient as Christ is, and just as immune to sin's temptation. As long as I remain in faith of God's promise.

What is being missed is that when we DO fail and give in to temptation, the resulting sinful action isn't where we failed. We failed in not staying in faith. Once we step outside faith in God's promise, temptation then has a foothold. The failure is in the lack of faith. The sinful action is merely the consequences of the real problem.

Obedience isn't something that we must add to our faith to remain saved. Obedience is the evidence that we ARE saved. Just as the apple is the evidence that the tree is an apple tree.

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well said

StephanieSomer said:

It is my belief that the analogies which Paul used to explain salvation in the first 8 chapters of Romans made a great deal of sense to his readers. The problem is that languages change over time. And add to that translations and interpretations and the originally easily understood principles get covered up in mud. Different languages require different analogies to make the principles as easily understood. I hope this one has helped.

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If that be the case, then we are just left to fashion mud pies as we see fit with the infallible word of God. I just listed more than a half dozen places that God said the exact same thing. Why would we doubt Him?

Thank God that He has told us that He would plant us the highway of holiness,where a man, though he be a fool, shall not err therein.

When it comes to believing God, it is always best to assume He means exactly what He says. Otherwise we are back to interpreting for God, and fashioning truth from OUR understanding. Dangerous territory.

Blessings, dear brother

Gideon

Yes, its the fruit we produce. Some thirty some sixty, some hundredfold.
Use us Lord, everyday in every way.

gideons300 said:

I pray this clears things up a bit.

Blessings,

Gideon [/SIZE][/FONT]

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It did! Thanks much.

gideons300 said:

...

And what is the bottom line of this glorious obedience of faith? It is the glory of seeing the very nature of Christ begin to be imprinted.... no,no..... revealedin us. To our delight and amazement, we see ourselves able to obey in all things Is obedience required? Glory, no! It is assured!

Blessings,

Gideon

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Though this grace is available to all, it isn't embraced by all who have encountered God.

The list of exceptions include:

• Balaam
• King Ahab
• The "disciples" of Matthew 7:21-23

That is why I say that we must will to press in, expecting the Holy Spirit to make up the difference.

gideons300 said:

IF we are more than conquerors?. Is it debatable what God told us?

And why could not a soldier be a considered, a conquorer?




, Are we not called to be an overcomer of the world, the flesh and the devil?

Have we not been delivered from the power of darkness?

Are we not promised that sin shall not have dominion over us?

Has Jesus not promised that if we would continue in His words, we will walk free indeed?

Have we not been given armor and a sword and shield that promises to quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy?

Has our amazing God not promised us that He will not allow us to be tempted more than we can bear?

Do we not serve the God who promises to keep us from falling?

That is not just a conquorer, dear brother. That is MORE than a conquorer!

Blessings,

Gideon

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You caught my challengey "if" hehe . well . what I mean is .. the passage with the "more than conquerors" also says that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ . so I think it's more than a conqueror in a sense that we build too .

StephanieSomer said:

It is my belief that the analogies which Paul used to explain salvation in the first 8 chapters of Romans made a great deal of sense to his readers. The problem is that languages change over time. And add to that translations and interpretations and the originally easily understood principles get covered up in mud. Different languages require different analogies to make the principles as easily understood. I hope this one has helped.

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Could you please provide examples, where the readers then, would see, or understand things differently than we do today when reading 1-8.

My puppy is obedient. What does that make him be?

An obedient dog, who follows rules, to get a treat, or not be punished!

Gee, what a low level to live on as far as one's center of existence, and goal, that same level of a puppy!


There is a higher plane than elementalism, good puppy, bad puppy, good Christian, bad Christian.

faroukfarouk said:

Romans actually speaks repeatedly of the obedience of faith.

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In Chapter 1, and 16, it can also read, "to" the faith.

Really, for clarification, see 6:17, and then a definition can be established, as far as the teaching that freed from sin, that they were obedient to, and that was grace, which means it was all God, not man.

Now again, no one is saying to be disobedient, but if obedience is one's primary concern, or fixation, it is symptomatic of a law centered life, and elementalism, where punishment is paramount, and that would come in the form of condemnation, under a constant obedience training school, as per the verse below.


Heb 2:2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,

Frogster said:

My puppy is obedient. What does that make him be?

An obedient dog, who follows rules, to get a treat, or not be punished!

Gee, what a low level to live on as far as one's center of existence, and goal, that same level of a puppy!


There is a higher plane than elementalism, good puppy, bad puppy, good Christian, bad Christian.

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are you implying -that those born again of the Spirit if God who then ,in love for him and gratitude toward him listen to him and do what he says because they trust that he knows what is best and has the best for us as his goal .. are just dogs ?
if there is a higher plane perhaps you would like to share how you arrived at it so every one can arrive at it also ..or is it an exclusive club ?

and then tell me .. im in a supermarket ,i'm about to buy some beers because i have always had that liberty to drink .(but avoid being drunken) and the holy Spirit speaks to my heart (he is my Sheppards voice -he only speaks that which he hears from the father ) And he says to me ..do not buy that ...
Do i go ahead and buy it ?-if so why?
Do i listen and obey ? - if so , why ?

Frogster said:

Now again, no one is saying to be disobedient, but if obedience is one's primary concern, or fixation, it is symptomatic of a law centered life, and elementalism, where punishment is paramount, and that would come in the form of condemnation, under a constant obedience training school, as per the verse below.

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Froggy, with the part that I have placed in bold, all I can say is that this type of thinking would be as foreign to the Scriptures as one could possibly hope to get; you could probably start a new religion.

gideons300 said:

There is much discussion, much of it heated, as to whether obedience is needed after we are saved.

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And, of course there SHOULDN'T BE ANY question about it whatsoever. OF COURSE "Obedience" is expected. but it's not expected to be "Perfect" - because we never stop being human, and the "Old Man" remains at enmity with God, and CAN'T BE reformed. All we can do with him is CRUCIFY HIM, and live the "JEsus life" instead. Romans covers the nuts and bolts of the process nicely.

We ARE NOT OUR OWN - we're bought with a Price, and are the "Love SLaves" of the one who died for us. Jesus makes it REALLY CLEAR - John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

On the one side we have the thought that once saved, nothing can cause us to lose it.

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Which with a little "Conceptual Adjustment" becomes an obvious "License to SIN". That's the way I used it, back in the day.

On the other side the thought that we must be holy and fully obedient to stay saved or we can lose it.

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WHich sounds a lot like the old Wesleyan "One Strike and you're OUT" teaching that used to characterize the Assemblies of God in the '60s. We spent all our time trying to stay saved.

Is that a fair assessment of both sides?

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Well - there's the "Middle ground", of course. As Christians WE WILL SIN, and IF we're Christians we will be CONVICTED of that sin, repent, and the sin will be GONE. Ideally as we mature, we'll become more like Jesus (Rom 8:28-30) and live increasing pure lives as time goes on.

It's my feeling that it's what we do HABITUALLY to is more of a factor, and whether or not we're engaged in a "Regenerative" and growing relationship with HIm through walking in the SPirit.

The parable of the wise and foolish virgins appears to apply. The Foolish ones didn't "just get foolish" that morning. They'd been practicing their foolishness for years. Same with the WISE ones. They'd cultured their wisdom for years. And as a result in the morning, they all got up, and "Acted Normally".

Christians can do the same - you can "Take His Yoke upon you, and LEARN OF HIM, growing into a MATURE Christain believer, or you can largely ignore Him, remain ignorant of the Word, and stay in spiritual infancy.

We ARE saved by FAITH, but FAITH depends on communion, and relationship with God. when that's neglected, the FAITH degenerates into the "Fading Memory of having HAD Faith" - once - until there's nothing left.

Since I've been down that road about 20 years ago, I can attest that God DOES send "Wake-up Calls". My first heart attack/Quad CABG was a pretty strong one -

Alithis said:

and then tell me .. im in a supermarket ,i'm about to buy some beers because i have always had that liberty to drink .(but avoid being drunken) and the holy Spirit speaks to my heart (he is my Sheppards voice -he only speaks that which he hears from the father ) And he says to me ..do not buy that ...
Do i go ahead and buy it ?-if so why?
Do i listen and obey ? - if so , why ?

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Nope you don't then you go write a book about the experience then start a denomination that is anti-drinking beer (probably US beer) then travel about how you're life has changed because you stopped drinking beer, then pick up a habit of drinking hard alcohol under the table then start a TV ministry while owning stocks in a beer company.

Could just be me who thinks this though.

Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

No. The bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus Christ obey him. Jesus himself said it "If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love." (John 15: 10). So the definition of "saving faith" is to love and obey Jesus Christ.

Svt4Him said:

Nope you don't then you go write a book about the experience then start a denomination that is anti-drinking beer (probably US beer) then travel about how you're life has changed because you stopped drinking beer, then pick up a habit of drinking hard alcohol under the table then start a TV ministry while owning stocks in a beer company.

Could just be me who thinks this though.

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That would probably be, you, me and quite a few others as well! Though I think that it would be more prudent to start with a home-church or maybe rent a shop front where undoubtedly there would be a few of like mind. They would probably want to wait to see how the book sells before a denomination is considered.