Does the Bible Teach Free Will or is that a Pagan Concept?

[liars_paradox]

The bible doesn't bring up Free Will, right? Do you guys think that that's because the notion of Free Will originated out of Ancient Greece?

I remember from Anthropology course in college, that the concept of the human mind isn't actually based on any real science but on Western religions - ie. Western paganism. And, I think that that's why we have the concept of the "psyche" and we even use the Greek word for it.

So many Christians mix scripture with Free Will, and talk about it as if it were a matter if fact. But, what they're not acknowledging is that the ancient Hebrews never knew of such a concept. And the NT writers, many being poor Jews, would only be some what familiar with such a concept. But, they never addressed it, probably because they didn't see a need to bring up pagan ideas in the word of God.

Does anyone else agree? Or, disagree?

 

[PaladinValer]

The concept of the Divine is Pagan too. Does that mean that the belief in God is Pagan?

When you find the answer to this question, you'll realize how silly you are sounding.

 

[LaSpino3]

Free, means to be at liberty; not being under necessity, or restraint, both physically, and morally. Free can only be applied when there are fixed laws. In Scripture when we read, "Thou shall not," or, "Thou shalt," these are fixed laws established by God. Every person is free to choose; to obey, or disobey.

The first fixed law we read about is found in Gen.2:16-17, "The LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat. But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it."

Adam and Eve went with "Thou shall not eat," the results, physical, and spiritual death."

Judas made a bad choice, as did Jonah, Ahab, and many others.

Again we find God's fixed moral laws in the ten commandments. "Thou shalt, Thou shalt not."

Non-believers are not under obligation to obey the word of God, but there is a price to be paid later if you disobey. These are unwilling to be persuaded, refusing, contumacious, and rebellious.

This also applies to civil laws. Obey; no fines, no jail; disobey; fines, or jail. Lets call it, cause and effect.

Phil LaSpino

 

[Harry3142]

Here's an example of free will from the Old Testament:

"Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshipped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:14,15;NIV)

Some have confused free will with salvation by works vs. salvation by grace. But the main reason for the argument today is due to the theology of predestination. About 400 years ago John Calvin introduced this in his theology. Under predestination there are those who have been chosen for salvation from birth, and there are those who have been chosen for condemnation from birth. Those who are to be saved will be able to be identified by how righteous they appear before others, and those who have been chosen for condemnation will be able to be identified by how evil they appear before others.

But the purpose for Christ's coming among us and making his supreme sacrifice is due to even our free will being hobbled by our innate sinfulness. Just as there is a limit to how high we can jump due to our physical limitations, there is also a limit to how righteous we can become due to our spiritual limitations.

But since those limitations precluded our ever becoming righteous to the extent required by God himself, God intervened in order to bridge the chasm between our sinfulness and his demands for absolute righteousness. And he bridged it through the work and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who both died and rose again from the dead as the conqueror of sin and death itself.

 

[judechild]

Western philosophy speaks of Free Will because the philosophers used their heads. To demote it to "western paganism" is ridiculous because paganism was deterministic. In Chapter 16, lines 512-548 of the Illiad, Zeus wants to save his mortal son Sarpedon from falling in battle, but Hera talks him out of it: "dread majesty, son of Cronus - what are you saying? ... if you send Sarpedon home, living still, beware! Then surely some other god will want to sweep his own son clear of the heavy fighting too... you will inspire lethal anger in them all." Since the pagan gods are by definition personified forces of nature (Apollo is not the Sun-god; he is the Sun), Homer expresses the belief that the actions and fate of men cannot be altered, because the forces of nature cannot allow for it. Determinism is not compatable with Free Will; and even the gods' fates are determined in mythology.

Free Will was reasoned by Aristotle in the Nichomachean Ethics, and by other philosophers. That being said, it was also denied by Parmenides, Zeno, the Stoics, and half-way by Plato - just to name a few. Aristotle has very convincing reasons for believing what he does and if it is the truth that humans have free will then is it any surprise that it is believed by many, and found in the actions of people in Scripture?

The question should not be "where does the idea of Free Will come from?" It should be "is the idea of Free Will a true idea?"

 

[Jack Bauer]

We are predestined and we have free will. That ought to keep your mind busy for a while.

 

[Strong in Him]

The bible doesn't bring up Free Will, right?

Doesn't it?

Adam was free to choose - Genesis says that Eve gave him the fruit and he ate it, not that she force fed it to him.
Cain didn't have to murder Abel; no one made him.
Abraham didn't have to lie and say that Sarah was his sister; likewise Isaac.
The prophets often told people to choose whether they wanted to serve the Lord or not.
Jesus told people to choose between the broad and the narrow way.
And so on.

Scripture is full of examples of people making choices.

 

[ivebeenshown]

We are predestined and we have free will. That ought to keep your mind busy for a while.

Haha, no joke.

Basically, 'free will' is real in that we make choices and God does not make our choices for us. 'Predestination' is real in that God already knows who is saved and who is lost by virtue of omniscience -- he knows all of our decisions already, but that doesn't mean he decided them for us.

 

[Myshkin99]

Judas made a bad choice, as did Jonah, Ahab, and many others.

Judas made the choice that he was destined to make, created to make, and to which we owe our eternal salvation. How is that bad?

 

[elopez]

The bible doesn't bring up Free Will, right? Do you guys think that that's because the notion of Free Will originated out of Ancient Greece?

In another thread of yours I gave you four instances in which free will is suggested. You ignored each and every verse, what gives? The Bible most definitely brings up free will.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Virtually everyone believes the Bible teaches free will, even those groups that other groups vehemently deny believe in free will. The problem arises, "free" is such a vague term that everyone can claim to own it.

 

[Yarddog]

Does the Bible Teach Free Will or is that a Pagan Concept?

Just because pagans did something does not mean the it is a pagan concept. Both the Pharisees and the Sadducees taught the biblical concept of free will. The Essenes were the only Jewish sect which did not. The Sadducees, priests, also taught the Torah only so this concept was also in the Books of Moses.
Exodus 35:29
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]The Israelites, all the men and women, whose heart moved them to bring {material} for all the work, which the LORD had commanded through Moses to be done, brought a freewill offering to the LORD. [/FONT]

The Jews teach of God's omnipotence: G-d can do anything. It is said that the only thing that is beyond His power is the fear of Him; that is, we have free will, and He cannot compel us to do His will. This belief in G-d's omnipotence has been sorely tested during the many persecutions of Jews, but we have always maintained that G-d has a reason for allowing these things, even if we in our limited perception and understanding cannot see the reason.

Does anyone else agree? Or, disagree?

God gave the Law to Israel and they made the free will decision to put themselves under the Law. Some chose to obey and many chose to disobey, all through their own free will.

We can go on into the NT if you want but you must ask yourself what is justice? It cannot exist unless one has the free will to choose right from wrong. There is no justice in sending a man to prison for what he had no choice in doing. In this case, prison is hell.

 

[liars_paradox]

The concept of the Divine is Pagan too. Does that mean that the belief in God is Pagan?

When you find the answer to this question, you'll realize how silly you are sounding.

Right. Not everything of a pagan origin is bad. That isn't my point.

What got me to write this thread is because most Christians on this forum talk about Free Will as if it was a matter of fact, and even go as far as to say that the Bible teaches that we have it. But, the Bible never talks about Free Will.

The whole purpose of my thread is to inform and educate Christians that the whole idea that "Free Will" isn't Biblical at all, and it's more a theological theory than fact.

 

[LaSpino3]

Phil wrote, Judas made a bad choice, as did Jonah, Ahab, and many others."

Myshkin99. Judas made the choice that he was destined to make, created to make, and to which we owe our eternal salvation. How is that bad?

Phil replies, "No, God's knowing everything from beginning to end; knew that Judas was going to make that choice, and told us about it hundreds of years before it happened. God tempts no man with evil.

Merry Christmas,

Phil LaSpino

 

[judechild]

Right. Not everything of a pagan origin is bad. That isn't my point.

Free Will is not of pagan origin.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Judas made the choice that he was destined to make, created to make, and to which we owe our eternal salvation. How is that bad?

He was destined to make the choice inasmuch as God already knew he would make that choice, and none of God's knowledge is false. It does not mean that God decided what all of our choices would be, for us. Just have to distinguish that.

 

[Epiphoskei]

That kind of sucks the "destiny" out of "predestined," now, doesn't it?

A Judas was required if Christ was to be be betrayed so we can be crucified so we can be saved. I guess we're all very lucky that he chose to betray Christ purely out of himself, not in accordance with the plan of God, otherwise the Atonement would have had to have been called off...

 

[bling]

Right. Not everything of a pagan origin is bad. That isn't my point.

What got me to write this thread is because most Christians on this forum talk about Free Will as if it was a matter of fact, and even go as far as to say that the Bible teaches that we have it. But, the Bible never talks about Free Will.

The whole purpose of my thread is to inform and educate Christians that the whole idea that "Free Will" isn't Biblical at all, and it's more a theological theory than fact.

How do you make a free will offering without free will?

 

[Epiphoskei]

How do you make a free will offering without free will?

Certainly you don't suggest that that portion of Levitical law, in context, was intended to be a prooftext in disputes of philosophy. The nebadah offerings were offerings given "freely" or "spontaneously," i.e., not as required for sins or compulsory rituals or tithes or as a consequence of a vow. I don't see anything in that definition that militates for or against any specific philosophy of the will.

 

[ivebeenshown]

That kind of sucks the "destiny" out of "predestined," now, doesn't it?

A Judas was required if Christ was to be be betrayed so we can be crucified so we can be saved. I guess we're all very lucky that he chose to betray Christ purely out of himself, not in accordance with the plan of God, otherwise the Atonement would have had to have been called off...

God already knew what choice Judas would make. God's plan is directly tied to such foreknowledge.