Does the Bible need a handbook?

[TheSuperNews]

I have an absolute answer: Since before the human Jesus was born, he (the person of Jesus) was the Logos, the Spokesman of God who created all thing: therefore listen to what is recorded of what Jesus Christ said.

Also, note that Jesus left us, and sent us a invisible Teacher, the Holy Spirit. John 14:26 "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything."

Because Holy Spirit can teach and guide you the same way he did with the human Jesus Christ. Christians who are led by the Spirit can be taught and can understand the word of God.

Thus, a Christian's guide is Holy Spirit (God).



I John 2:22 : " As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit --just as it has taught you, remain in him."

 

[ebia]

I'm not sure what you are saying. My point was that I have had many people tell me that a friend of mine is not a Christian becasue she did not believe what they do about Jesus. She was baptised and brought into fellowship in a church and people still say she is going to hell. I can forward the posts if you want.

No need - I believe you. I wish such comments were not made and I think it's a very sad reflection on human nature and the state of Christianity that they are.

Maybe he is but I am yet to have one Christian to tell me that God is the one giving me the questions. Have a look at my web site http://users.tpg.com.au/mlsheen/index.htm and tell me if you think that it is God giving me these questions. There is always a first.

From what you've said here it seems plausible to me. I'll look at your site and respond futher.

So you agree.

Yes. It's very easy to fall into a trap of grabbing anything that appears to be evidence for your cause without thinking it through.

 

[ebia]

Maybe he is but I am yet to have one Christian to tell me that God is the one giving me the questions. Have a look at my web site http://users.tpg.com.au/mlsheen/index.htm and tell me if you think that it is God giving me these questions. There is always a first.

I've now read some of your site. Obviously I can't definitely say "God is the one giving you those questions" - I'm not sure how I could know that - but I'm still prepared to say that the idea is entirely plausible.

That's not to say that I agree with all your arguments, let alone all your conclusions, but the vast majority are at least resonable if not good questions to ask and keep asking until you get a satisfactory answer. Indeed, many of them are questions I am inclined to raise myself.

One question I can't really answer is why so many Christians are afraid of these questions - if God is truth and John was right when he wrote "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free", then what's the danger in questions? Yet so many Christians want to avoid the questions or try to get away with trite answers that don't address the substance of the issue, as though they are afraid that thinking about it will destroy their faith.

 

[AgnosticMike]

Mike, God saves us in spite of any errors that we may believe. HE is the one who gives us the gift of faith. Some have greater faith than others. It's not the amount of faith we have but the fact that we DO have faith. Some people reject faith and reject Christ and the cross. Some people go down the path of false doctrine so far that they start off believing and end up creating a false god of their own and no longer have the faith given to them for eternal life. We can fall away from faith as scripture says. It's God who can bring us back and He does so through His Word.

Why the "handbooks" as you call them? Some of these are confessions of faith for a unity to keep congregations aware when they stray into false doctrine. A little bit of leaven can spoil, you know. Not all these "handbooks" are true expositions of the Bible but Christians must ALWAYS look to the Bible for full truth and test every other thing according to what is written there.

G'day Kat
I know you are a bit more liberal in your ideas of salvation, but many on this site hold fast to their versions of Salvation. They say clearly and loudly that he does hold you accountable for the errors. Like my friend who was baptised and accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour etc. However, she never accepted that Jesus and God were the same. Many people say that she is not a true Christian becasue of this.

I am not talking about the handbooks per se. My questions was regarding the various interpretations of the Bible, like Salvation as I have just demonstrated. Everyone claims to have the good oil on each key doctrine but each use different scritures to support their views. The salvation one is a classic example. People often say, read the Bible and find out for yourself but then (regarding salvation) some add this doctrine about believeing Jesus is God to the equation, something that is not in any of the key salvation passages. They say things like Jesus is from God, Son of God etc but not Jesus is God. So it looks like you need a handbook of all these extras to add to the Bible.

Know what I mean?

Regards

Mike

 

[belladonic-haze]

After numerous discussions and questions I have been amazed at the variety of ideas and interpretations on the Bible. Like the Ethiopian Eneuch who needed someone to explain the meaning of parts of the Jewish Scriptures it seems that the Bible needs a handbook to accompany it.

I know there are many commentaries which could be classed as handbooks and even volumes that are called handboos (namely Haley's Bible Handbook). With so many telling me I should read my Bible to find out (which I have many times) I am still left in a smorgasboard of possibilities as to many of the so called key doctrines.

I am tentative about the answers I will receive as many will claim to have absolute answers. The only question is who can I rely on to have the absolute answers?

Do we not read everything in our own way?

Anyway, I just ask my pastor...... He is my walking handboo

 

[ebia]

I am not talking about the handbooks per se. My questions was regarding the various interpretations of the Bible, like Salvation as I have just demonstrated. Everyone claims to have the good oil on each key doctrine but each use different scritures to support their views. The salvation one is a classic example. People often say, read the Bible and find out for yourself but then (regarding salvation) some add this doctrine about believeing Jesus is God to the equation, something that is not in any of the key salvation passages. They say things like Jesus is from God, Son of God etc but not Jesus is God. So it looks like you need a handbook of all these extras to add to the Bible.

Perhaps. Or are they, as it seems to me, treating the bible like jigsaw puzzle that has to be broken up and rearranged in the right way - join this passage from John to this passage from Romans and this passage from Hebrews....

Of course either way it raises the question of why, if God wanted to spell out some specific formula, he didn't do it consisely and unambigously in one place?

In my opinion it's because he doesn't intend it to be reduced to that kind of unambigous formular in the first place; that he's not interested in "giving us the right answer" but in having us think and "ask the right questions".

Treating the bible as though it were an instruction manual seems absurd - if God intends it to be an instruction manual then he is, quite frankly, incompetent.

 

[AgnosticMike]

I've now read some of your site. Obviously I can't definitely say "God is the one giving you those questions" - I'm not sure how I could know that - but I'm still prepared to say that the idea is entirely plausible.

That's not to say that I agree with all your arguments, let alone all your conclusions, but the vast majority are at least resonable if not good questions to ask and keep asking until you get a satisfactory answer. Indeed, many of them are questions I am inclined to raise myself.

One question I can't really answer is why so many Christians are afraid of these questions - if God is truth and John was right when he wrote "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free", then what's the danger in questions? Yet so many Christians want to avoid the questions or try to get away with trite answers that don't address the substance of the issue, as though they are afraid that thinking about it will destroy their faith.

Just remember, what you have read is probably not a conclusion. I have some conclusions on some ethical and moral issues but not in the other areas. I have some ideas expressed but they are not conclusions. If they were then I have ceased to be an Agnostic.

 

[AgnosticMike]

Perhaps. Or are they, as it seems to me, treating the bible like jigsaw puzzle that has to be broken up and rearranged in the right way - join this passage from John to this passage from Romans and this passage from Hebrews....

Of course either way it raises the question of why, if God wanted to spell out some specific formula, he didn't do it consisely and unambigously in one place?

In my opinion it's because he doesn't intend it to be reduced to that kind of unambigous formular in the first place; that he's not interested in "giving us the right answer" but in having us think and "ask the right questions".

Treating the bible as though it were an instruction manual seems absurd - if God intends it to be an instruction manual then he is, quite frankly, incompetent.

Interesting. I am slowly getting a better picture on you. The last statement is interesting and intelligent, I think. So many say it is an instruction manual. Others say its the revelation of God's people's realtionship with him. So in that sense it's sort of a manual on what not to do, well sometimes. I like the 8th century prophets like Amos, Hosea, Micah and stuff. Good ol social justice. Numbers is a bit dodgy with all the stuff about killing all the Canaanites but keeping the virgins. The list goes on.

Maybe God didn't spell anything out in the Bible becasue maybe he had nothing to do with it. Maybe the wrong books are there. Maybe there's not meant to be 66 but only 7. Maybe the 66 is really Satan's counterfeit since it has his number twice.

I'm trying to be amusing, but the point is that the Protestant church might have it wrong. Let's face it the Catholics could be right, or even Marcion or any number of Bibles that have emerged over the centuries.

So many possibilities, that for me it is hard to put my foot in any one camp.

The church is big on formulas and it would do better to heed your advice. Formulas mean creating dogma and rules, totally opposed to the Jesus ethic. So how do these people claim to be followers when they folow so little of the way of Jesus?

 

[ebia]

Just remember, what you have read is probably not a conclusion. I have some conclusions on some ethical and moral issues but not in the other areas. I have some ideas expressed but they are not conclusions. If they were then I have ceased to be an Agnostic.

I meant conclusion in the sense of a conclusion of the argument presented in each case. I understand that your mind is not made up in many cases.

On the whole, as far as I can see in the case of the moral/ethical issues we pretty much think alike anyway.

 

[AgnosticMike]

Do we not read everything in our own way?

Anyway, I just ask my pastor...... He is my walking handboo

No I always try and read from different perspectives. It's like listening to news on the TV or in the paper. You always have to view it critically.

So I bet you're glad that your pastor is always right. I am yet to meet a pastor that has it all squared up.

 

[ebia]

Interesting. I am slowly getting a better picture on you. The last statement is interesting and intelligent, I think. So many say it is an instruction manual. Others say its the revelation of God's people's realtionship with him. So in that sense it's sort of a manual on what not to do, well sometimes. I like the 8th century prophets like Amos, Hosea, Micah and stuff. Good ol social justice.

Numbers is a bit dodgy with all the stuff about killing all the Canaanites but keeping the virgins. The list goes on.

I have to admit to being a bit stumped about what I can usefully learn from Numbers still.

Maybe God didn't spell anything out in the Bible becasue maybe he had nothing to do with it.

That's always a possibility. Still, I think I've learned some good stuff from it on balance, so I'll keep it anyway. Truth is truth, whereever it is found; though the opposite is also true.

Maybe the wrong books are there. Maybe there's not meant to be 66 but only 7. Maybe the 66 is really Satan's counterfeit since it has his number twice.

I'm trying to be amusing, but the point is that the Protestant church might have it wrong. Let's face it the Catholics could be right, or even Marcion or any number of Bibles that have emerged over the centuries.

Indeed, though I escape your 66 reference because I do use a Catholic bible normally (NJB).

So many possibilities, that for me it is hard to put my foot in any one camp.

Better than stepping in something unpleasant I guess.

The church is big on formulas and it would do better to heed your advice. Formulas mean creating dogma and rules, totally opposed to the Jesus ethic.

Which is why I couldn't possibly join the RCC, even though I work for them and I have much respect for a good deal of their social justice work (leaving aside one or two contraversial subjects).

So how do these people claim to be followers when they folow so little of the way of Jesus?

Shrug. I guess no-one ever wants to acknowledge that passages like Matthew 23 could possibly be speaking to them, but it seems to describe so accurately much of what goes on in Christianity.

 

[AgnosticMike]

I meant conclusion in the sense of a conclusion of the argument presented in each case. I understand that your mind is not made up in many cases.

On the whole, as far as I can see in the case of the moral/ethical issues we pretty much think alike anyway.

Yes I do think largely like many Christians. Not on all matters but many. Some of the areas regarding sexuality do challenge a few people.

Do you think I have made conclusions on certain topics? I must admit there is a lack of Christian side to the forum. That's not from the want of trying. I publish every comment that is forwarded to me on each topic. I do want it to be balnced with a variety of thought.

 

[ebia]

Yes I do think largely like many Christians. Not on all matters but many. Some of the areas regarding sexuality do challenge a few people.

Let's just say that I fully support my denomination's choice for bishop of New Hampshire and leave it at that.

Do you think I have made conclusions on certain topics?

No more than is inevitable if one is to avoid constantly saying "on the other hand" (which would be really annoying).

My impression of the bits I've read so far is that the material you present is mostly "against" (Christianity) and so the infererence (whether you spell it out or not) is that the Christian perspective is wrong. Of course some of the articles are really addressing one part of Christianity anyway, but... I'm waffling.

I must admit there is a lack of Christian side to the forum. That's not from the want of trying. I publish every comment that is forwarded to me on each topic. I do want it to be balnced with a variety of thought.

I can see that, and yet it's not really working. Somehow it doesn't invite a differing perspective. I don't have any particularly bright ideas on how to make it work better though; I'm trying to be constructive not critical.

 

[belladonic-haze]

No I always try and read from different perspectives. It's like listening to news on the TV or in the paper. You always have to view it critically.

So I bet you're glad that your pastor is always right. I am yet to meet a pastor that has it all squared up.

Oh, yea, of course you need to read critically. I never said that....but we still have a personal view on things like this..... To me religion is something personal. And tv and papers have the tendency to look at a certain matter one way...they way they think is the correct POV.

We have socialist channels on the telly and I feel at home there (heck, I am a socialist and proud of it ). But we have Christian channels as well, and I watch them too, but there are matters I disagree on........Evolution vs Creation i.e.......but that is the biologist in me......
I love docus about Jesus life and I cry when I see people pray with passion or those sobbing movies where God helps to save someones life.......that is the Christian in me...

I am more then just a Christian.......

I do not agree with everything the bible says and sometimes I even think they should just throw away old fashioned and judgemental verses.

My pastor isn't always right, he just accepts different POV's and with critacal questions I always come up with feelings and thoughts and new viewpoints.... He makes me look beyond the words. He once even suggested that in a certain situation the bible would be of no help at all....and instead of seeing myself as a sinner I would just see myself as a human being. Even Jesus got angry with people, we all have that....... That was the best advice I got in my situation at that time. I am just lucky he undestands where I am coming from.....

Yet, how hard we try to be objective in certain matters.....we can't do that. Especially when it comes to the way how someone experiences his or her relationship with God..........There is a reason why there are so many Christian denominations.......

Anyway.....it is a long rambling way to say that I agree........I just said it wrong..........

 

[AgnosticMike]

Oh, yea, of course you need to read critically. I never said that....but we still have a personal view on things like this..... To me religion is something personal. And tv and papers have the tendency to look at a certain matter one way...they way they think is the correct POV.

We have socialist channels on the telly and I feel at home there (heck, I am a socialist and proud of it ). But we have Christian channels as well, and I watch them too, but there are matters I disagree on........Evolution vs Creation i.e.......but that is the biologist in me......
I love docus about Jesus life and I cry when I see people pray with passion or those sobbing movies where God helps to save someones life.......that is the Christian in me...

I am more then just a Christian.......

I do not agree with everything the bible says and sometimes I even think they should just throw away old fashioned and judgemental verses.

My pastor isn't always right, he just accepts different POV's and with critacal questions I always come up with feelings and thoughts and new viewpoints.... He makes me look beyond the words. He once even suggested that in a certain situation the bible would be of no help at all....and instead of seeing myself as a sinner I would just see myself as a human being. Even Jesus got angry with people, we all have that....... That was the best advice I got in my situation at that time. I am just lucky he undestands where I am coming from.....

Yet, how hard we try to be objective in certain matters.....we can't do that. Especially when it comes to the way how someone experiences his or her relationship with God..........There is a reason why there are so many Christian denominations.......

Anyway.....it is a long rambling way to say that I agree........I just said it wrong..........

I must say I am impressed. I like to regard myself as a socialist and a pacifist too. Needless to say I am appauled at the Austrlalian government's decision to follow the US into a war in Iraq. Especially under false pretenses.

I am interested in your biological reasoning with the ID debate and the evolution stuff. Please elaborate. It's the reason I enter these forums, to get ideas and opinions from people.

Well it seems your pastor is not who I thought he could have been. I know one local pastor who told his congregation not to have contact with some people that had left his church. It wasn't becasue they were immoral or anything but because of a difference in opinion. This sort of militant pastoring set up as annointed leadership is quite bad in anyone's terms.

Anyway, I'm glad we clarified that. Please sahre those thoughts, I very curios.

Regards

Mike

 

[belladonic-haze]

I must say I am impressed. I like to regard myself as a socialist and a pacifist too. Needless to say I am appauled at the Austrlalian government's decision to follow the US into a war in Iraq. Especially under false pretenses.

I am interested in your biological reasoning with the ID debate and the evolution stuff. Please elaborate. It's the reason I enter these forums, to get ideas and opinions from people.

Well it seems your pastor is not who I thought he could have been. I know one local pastor who told his congregation not to have contact with some people that had left his church. It wasn't becasue they were immoral or anything but because of a difference in opinion. This sort of militant pastoring set up as annointed leadership is quite bad in anyone's terms.

Anyway, I'm glad we clarified that. Please sahre those thoughts, I very curios.

Regards

Mike

Evolution versus creation......Christain biologists came up with ID, probably because they need to avoid that their scientific heart doesn't collide with their Christian heart. ID is flawed.....Evolution isn't perfect either, put at this point in science the most logical one......

And like all things the more we search the more we find, discover and that is not always the way we thought it would go. Books enough about this subject.

To me Genesis from is a philosophycal explanantion, not a scientific one. And yes, my scientific heart collides with my Christian heart. It is just one of these things. It's hard to be a science nerd and a Christian at the same time . But God is there. Not on the outside of us, but in us......Maybe we will discover He is in our DNA, maybe in our soul. I do not know, and frankly, that is not something I worry about. But I do know God is in me, not on the outside. He is love and energy and yet He is a being. Omnipotent? I have no clue.......Did I experience Him? More than once. I had a Godly encounter last year. I was getting a new pacemaker with a third thread. The darn thread refused to go were it should be. How hard the cardiologist tried, the darn thing refused to go into that vein. I muttered inwardly and suddenly I closed my eyes and prayed "Our father, who is in heaven (well, in my native language of course.....) but I stopped at sentence two and thought. "Now God, make sure that the darn thing goes were it belongs...NOW!" Just two seconds later the cardiologist joyful expressed that it got in and that he almost wanted to give up!......

Yea, so....it works to pray....and I wasn't very holy in my words. I was lying on my back completely still for over 3 hours and I wasn't really the sweet Christian at that moment. But God somehow knew I needed His help....maybe because of my thoughts, maybe because He saw the cardiologist break out in sweat, maybe the cardiologist himself had prayed inwardly.......It worked and I was free after 5 hour surgery.....(I was awake....local anestecia)......

But the facts of evolution are found all over the world and if you look how beautiful bacteria evolve in just a few days.....Evolution is a fact. With the help of God? I do not know...He gave us free will.......Did He big bang?....I have no idea. What if He was born that same way, at the moment the Bing Bang sounded a very beautiful creature awoke and God was there. He watched us evolve and became very involved in our lives. He made sure He was there for us....

He probably laughs, cries, loves and so on the same way. Why else would Jesus be so human???

Just my thoughts........

 

[Tavita]

If they held the same fundamentals they wouldn't be divided. So you believe in transsubstantiation and other Catholic doctrines or that you have to talk in tongues to be saved, or you have to be baptised in full immersion water to be saved. There are literally hundreds. Many of the Christians I have spoken to on this site do not agree with parts of the Nicene Creed.

The fundamentals aren't beliefs like transsubstantiation, speaking in tongues, full immersion baptism etc etc. Those types of beliefs don't determine the basic core of christianity. The major denoms will agree on things like the saving work of Christ, the Trinity, the work of Holy Spirit, and God's attributes etc.

There are groups around like the Revival Centres who believe that speaking in tongues is part of salvation and you can't be a true christian without it. What they believe doesn't affect me though. Why should it? If they want to believe such things then that is between them and God, and I won't judge them for it. If they don't think I'm a christian because maybe I don't speak in tongues, then really, they shouldn't be judging me, but should I worry? If I have a good solid relationship with God and know where I stand with Him, and I've searched the scriptures for myself on those beliefs to see if they be true or not, and my conscience declares before God that my beliefs are in accordance with His word, isn't that all that matters? .. and I'll still love the people anyway. If we differ on things then it's the love of Christ that should be drawing us together. And yeh, in reality, I'm fully aware that love doesn't bring us all together like it ought to.

 

[Faulty]

Well I have. For 30 years I've been praying for wisdom and God's guidance. That's a fact. As the years pass I wonder if there is a God that can even hear. Maybe he's not the God we suspected all along.

God doesn't change and will not say he'll do something and not do it. There are countless ones of us who have asked in faith for wisdom and received it. We are not special in any fashion and do not receive special treatment from God.

I suspect that if you have been asking for it for 30 years then its not in faith, but rather asked in hope or frustration. Hope and a sandwich will get you a meal. Faith and a sandwich will feed your family for a week.

 

[calidog]

After numerous discussions and questions I have been amazed at the variety of ideas and interpretations on the Bible. Like the Ethiopian Eneuch who needed someone to explain the meaning of parts of the Jewish Scriptures it seems that the Bible needs a handbook to accompany it.

I know there are many commentaries which could be classed as handbooks and even volumes that are called handboos (namely Haley's Bible Handbook). With so many telling me I should read my Bible to find out (which I have many times) I am still left in a smorgasboard of possibilities as to many of the so called key doctrines.

I am tentative about the answers I will receive as many will claim to have absolute answers. The only question is who can I rely on to have the absolute answers?

remember, God Himself sent someone to help the Ethiopian Eneuch. Later, Jesus tells us He will send the Councelor. This tells me we don't need a handbook to understand what God says but they help us understand the times and customs, etc.

 

[AgnosticMike]

The fundamentals aren't beliefs like transsubstantiation, speaking in tongues, full immersion baptism etc etc. Those types of beliefs don't determine the basic core of christianity. The major denoms will agree on things like the saving work of Christ, the Trinity, the work of Holy Spirit, and God's attributes etc.

There are groups around like the Revival Centres who believe that speaking in tongues is part of salvation and you can't be a true christian without it. What they believe doesn't affect me though. Why should it? If they want to believe such things then that is between them and God, and I won't judge them for it. If they don't think I'm a christian because maybe I don't speak in tongues, then really, they shouldn't be judging me, but should I worry? If I have a good solid relationship with God and know where I stand with Him, and I've searched the scriptures for myself on those beliefs to see if they be true or not, and my conscience declares before God that my beliefs are in accordance with His word, isn't that all that matters? .. and I'll still love the people anyway. If we differ on things then it's the love of Christ that should be drawing us together. And yeh, in reality, I'm fully aware that love doesn't bring us all together like it ought to.

See Christians don't agree on the fundamentals. Trans sub is fundamental to Catholics. Just becasue you don't have it on your list, doesn't mean it or any other doctrines aren't fundamental to other Christians.

You might love those you dissagree with, although I'd like to know how you love them. Love is not something we mentally do. Please inform me.