Does Submit = Obey?

[alaskamolly]

Well...I think both exist at the same time--a relationship of equals, and a relationship of authority rankings.


You see it in Eden, how God gives the position of authority to the husband:
Adam, not Eve, is asked to name the animals, for example. To name a thing is to call it what it is...and only someone in authority over a thing has the right to officially name a thing.
Also, God gave the rule about the "tree" to Adam, not to Eve. Adam was the 'delegated' authority--he passed on the word from God to Eve.


To me,it was obvious God viewed Adam as the one in higher authority. That doesn't mean God said Adam was better. It's simply that God created EVERYTHING to show us something--all of creation is a picture of God in one way or another (or so says Romans 1).

1 Corinthians 11 tells us why God has husbands and wives in or under authority. Man and wife are to represent the way God relates to Christ, and/or the way Christ relates to humankind.

Ephesians 5 gives us another analogy--The husband represents Christ, and the wife represents the Church. It's all supposed to be one big expression of a much higher truth. We are living storybooks, as it were.


The curse was simply God showing them what would happen to their roles now that sin was in the world. That sweet natural leadership and submission would now be corrupted...him wanting to dominate her (or go passive altogether), her wanting to usurp him (overtly or behind-the-scenes), and so it goes...
The whole history of the human race is an excellent case study of Sin and Rebellion, and male-female relationship are no exception.


However we know for certain that authority roles are to exist, simply because we have them given as commands in the New Testament. There is a level of mutual submission (a natural give-and-take that exists in all living things!) but that is to be found within the context of the authority structure.

For example, there is a mutual submission in my own body, but --the head and body recieve from one another, but the head is still the head is still the head. The mutual submission does not negate who is the one with the vision and the plans for the entire body--it merely makes it all work that much sweeter.


My 2 Cents!

Molly

 

[Cordy]

With all due respect, I think you actually reversed the meaning and context of Ephesians 5.

Mutual submission is given FIRST, then, in continuing the same phrase, we are told marriage is to emulate this. Grammatically, mutual submission is the umbrella of the sentence, and the relationship of husbands and wives sits under this concept.

The original Greek is similar to the following: “Submit yourselves to one another, wives to your husbands…” etc.

In the original Greek, the only way to understand the “wives” part in vs. 22 is by putting it under the statement at the beginning of the phrase (which is mutual submission). Marital submitting is given in context of the mutual submitting. Not the other way around.

Aside from the context of mutual submission, we must understand what is being said when Paul states “wives, to your husbands as unto the Lord”. We, the Church, give ourselves to God, because of something He first did for us. If He did not die for us and demonstrate ultimate servanthood, we, the Church, would have nothing to respond to. If the husbands are not giving themselves to us, the wives, in a loving and servant-minded manner, we don’t have anything to respond to. But if the man is submitting to his wife by putting her first, then she is glad to put him first as well. He is therefore not saying, “I have authority”, but “I am now serving you”. And to this the wives responds, “me too”. This is a picture of two equals uniting, not one ruling and one obeying – not even close.


You might also find http://www.txbc.org/2000Journals/Jan2000/JAN2000ephesians5teachesmutual.htm helpful

 

[Cordy]

At the end of Ephesians 5 we read “Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence[or respect] her husband.” If I remember correctly, this passage in the original Greek actually says that something closer to “…husbands, each of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, IN ORDER THAT YOU MAY EARN the respect of your wives”. Paul is breaking the cultural code here! He wrote this during a time when when women were considred property - they were expected to obey like the servants, animals and children. Paul is saying, men, you don’t automatically get respect form your wives -you have to earn it. Learn from Christ’s example of self-sacrifice. If you will notice, Paul is discouraging the obvious authority expected in the culture and saying, enough with power ego! Treat your wives better than yourselves. Submit, be a servant and love.

 

[alaskamolly]

Have to disagree with you on the Greek thing...I studied Biblical Greek, and what you are talking about "ain't there" according to most scholars.

I know we haven't gotten into this yet, but since we probably would, it's the same with the commonly argued case of kephale (head), where you posit that it means 'source without authority' instead of "position of authority." Most scholars totally disagree with the egalitarian 'translation' to source. It just doesn't work and is very difficult to prove... unless you really have something to prove...in which case you can always find something to tweak to get it to say it the way you want it. (And that goes either way, on any thing, of course!)

But ANYWAYS...

What you are talking about is called, "egalitarianism" (which you are aware of, but I'm explaining it for others who may be interested), and is a theological view spreading like wildfire throughout many seminaries. Obviously, since it so perfectly corresponds with our present-day cultures viewpoints, it is gaining in popularity by the day.


In contrast, we have the other camp, called "Complimentarianism," which I find myself in...though I was once an egalitarian, times twenty! Why did I leave egalitarianism? Well, I just couldn't support my views by using Scripture, except for by pulling and tweaking verses here and there...



Upon a serious serious serious study, there was no way I could stay an egalitarian. It took a lot for God to take this former feminist and show her the beauty of His plan, but...He did! So I am now a full-blown complimentarian, and must say that my marraige has been WAY blessed as a result (not something I expected!)...



For me, it's what I see as most compatible with Scripture. As an egalitarian, most of my theology was hinged on one verse (you know, the Galatians text!) and on my pre-formed opinions, and the theory that most gender-specific verses were now culturally outdated.

As a complimentarian, I do not always have to spend time figuring out how to "get rid" of certain passages by culturally 'explaining them away.' As a complimentarian, I can just embrace them and walk in them, letting the water of the Word wash out my former ideas and replacing them with Yahweh's (see Romans 12:1,2!)...



Wayne Grudem and John Piper have compiled an incredible book that I recommend heartily. Elisabeth Elliot and many others have written chapters in it, sharing their thoughts from Scripture.

Here is one of the main sites to visit, if you are interested in studying this further. Lots of information there, for anyone interested.
http://www.cbmw.org/



I have to say, it was in finding and embracing my place as a woman that I began to really appreciate and enjoy being one. After all...that's what God made me to be!

BUT, all that to say...

This is a well battled field that I don't care to go into right now...not because I don't think the Bible presents well reasoned arguments to the contrary, but simply because I don't have the time to give to it! That, and the fact that no matter how long we debate, which would probably be quite long, my opinion would stay the same and so would yours.

So...I'm sure we both have better things to do!



Blessings,
Molly

 

[Pope Gonzo]

The way I see it is both egalitarianism and complimentarianism will work basically the same in a God-centered, Bible-based marriage. Since we are all humans, however, no marriage is perfect, and so there is bound to be arguments. In the rare situation where an argument can't be compromised and resolved, we've got two scenarios: 1)the egalitarian says they should continue to butt heads until a decision is agreed upon, based on mutual submission, and 2)the wife submits to the husband's leadership and together they find out the hard way whether he was right or wrong and learn from the decision, ultimately moving on from the matter. My fiance and I like the latter

 

[wonder111]

I guess it depends on the relationship. I have had equal relationships where both put the other first, and one could always easily comprimise, depending on the situation. If it meant more to the other person, I would give in and vice versa
the way my relationships with my friends are, there isn't one in authority

 

[Jenna]

It's all supposed to be one big expression of a much higher truth. We are living storybooks, as it were.

I just loved that particular line. That aside, you just rock. You've said it so much better than I ever could have managed. My hat is off to you.

 

[newname]

The relationship of husband and wife and children are a parable to our relationship to Jesus Christ and God, our heavenly Father.

God gives us these parables so we, in our flesh, can understand what God is trying to teach you, leading you to truth, which will save your soul.

The wife must obey the husband, just as the church, obeys Jesus Christ, the groom of the church, the bride.

How can we learn to obey Jesus Christ, if we can not learn to obey our husbands?

This parable shows the world God's ways and who are we to say that's not fair!

Are you willing to "keep the commandments" of Christ or are they to hard?

Just as children, we are learning from the true groom, Jesus Christ. It's Jesus that teaches the bride, the church. Are you willing to learn with the humbleness of "a child"?

Do not let "pride of life" decieve you, we must become "nothing" so Jesus Christ can make us in his image.

You must learn to "go to the lower room", become humble and know that you have "no rights". This is learned by becoming the submissive wife. Learn to submitt, obeying your husband and Jesus Christ will teach you why you must do this.

Just as children, the church ask why? Obey and then you will know why.

i pray that all the woman in the church obey the words of Christ, even if they do not "understand" yet.

continue to seek the truth diligently,

speaking truth by the Holy Spirit,
newname

 

[Leanna]

I personally cant think of a decision making situation that husband and wife cant learn to come to agreement on. So this makes no sense. When should I be submitting to my husband? Why is this necessary?

 

[Jenna]

Hey, it's great when folks can always compromise. For so many things, my husband and I compromise, or we just gift each other with what we know the other really would prefer. However, there are some things where we just can't see eye to eye, like when we were talking over where our daughter would be going to school. Sometimes it is where we are going to spend money, and that sort of thing. There are just some areas that are trickier to compromise through than others.

 

[Micaiah]

Bottom line. Submit = obey. Hopefully many decisions can be worked out together and there is mutual agreement. At times husbands need to make decisions the wife won't agree with.

 

[Pope Gonzo]

I personally cant think of a decision making situation that husband and wife cant learn to come to agreement on. So this makes no sense. When should I be submitting to my husband? Why is this necessary?

I very much envy this marriage. I, however, am human, and I'm sure there will be something, eventually, that a compromise will be too difficult to come to. My parents have been married over 30 years, and my dad says that if he thought hard enough, he might get past counting these situations on one hand... but probably not.

 

[jazzbird]

Don't reject Christ's hard sayings

I'm not trying to reject what the Bible says. I'm merely trying to get to the absolute truth of what it says. I believe wives are to submit, but I am not convinced that the Bible tells us to obey. I know I must sound like a broken record.

The relationship of husband and wife and children are a parable to our relationship to Jesus Christ and God, our heavenly Father.

Yes, I agree that marriage is a mirror of Christ and His church.

The wife must obey the husband, just as the church, obeys Jesus Christ, the groom of the church, the bride.

But where does the Bible say that we are to obey?

Are you willing to "keep the commandments" of Christ or are they to hard?

Yes, I desire to keep God's commands. It is important to study the word enough to know what those commands are, isn't it?

You must learn to "go to the lower room", become humble and know that you have "no rights". This is learned by becoming the submissive wife. Learn to submitt, obeying your husband and Jesus Christ will teach you why you must do this.

I have no rights in my marriage? Where does the Bible teach this? What do you mean "go to the lower room?"

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just feel like everyone is so quick to jump to the conclusion that submission and obedience are exactly the same thing without giving proof for this assertion.

I should probably stop posting in this thread. I think I'm just beating a dead horse. Maybe my brain is just making unnecessary distinctions. I don't know anymore.

 

[Jenna]

Hey Jazz

So, what distinctions do you make between submission and obedience in respect to a wife's interaction with her husband? I'm curious to see what you are honestly thinking when you ponder the subject.

I, personally, don't know that it is possible to separate submission from obedience, even in tricky situations. For example, a man who tells his wife that he needs help with a drinking habit, and instructs her to never allow him to purchase alcohol while they are out. When the time comes and he might possibly rail at her for giving him a hard time, she is still being submissive to what he really wants even though it looks as if she is controling the situation.

If a couple is disagreeing about something and cannot reach a suitable compromise, if a woman is submissive and takes a step back because of her husband's God-given authority, is she still obeying? I would say so. She is honoring his wish not to fight, and gifting him with her trust that he will take her feelings into consideration, but will do what is best for their family.

I think the main difference between submission and simple obedience is that submission can really only be given. Anyone will choose to obey if they are given strong enough incentive to break them. However, submission is something that has to be freely given, and it works hand-in-hand with the respect that we are supposed to have for our husbands. Likewise, God's command that a husband love his wife would go a long way to ensure that he is reaching for her submission, and not shutting himself off from her to better control her through simple obedience.

 

[alaskamolly]

I feel like all I do is echo Jenna, lately...



Submission IS the same thing as obedience, but the difference is that submission is a willing voluntary act.



I used to be really big on the "submission isn't obedience!" thing, but it was simply because I was still fighting with God about it all, because I was in rebellion to the way He'd set things up and was still trying to figure out how to get out of it! (Jazzbird, I'm not saying that's what you're doing --it's just what I did).


But, check out 1 Peter 3. At least in the King James version, she's not told to submit... She's told to OBEY. You can check out the Greek there for yourself...it means...obey.




I'm telling you, it's not as terrible as it sounds. In fact, there's this place in it that will be the most freeing and liberating thing that you'll ever do. It's because (I think) God made us women to BE that second rank in the marriage, and when you operate properly in that place, it just feels plain good! It does beautiful things to your marraige too, things I certainly never would have expected...
(Not saying there aren't struggles or issues or blah,blah,blah--I'm just talking generally).


This rambler needs to get off the computer...
Love,
Molly

 

[jazzbird]

Hey Jazz

So, what distinctions do you make between submission and obedience in respect to a wife's interaction with her husband? I'm curious to see what you are honestly thinking when you ponder the subject.

I don't know Jenna. Maybe in practice the two aren't any different. I hear the word 'obey' and I think of a dog, or at least children who have no say in the matter. I guess that may be it: in my mind, obey means that the obedient one doesn't have a say, while submit means that the one in submission's voice is heard and considered, even if the final decision comes from the other person.

Also, obedience implies punishment. If one does not obey, there is usually a punishment administered. Are husbands to punish their wives?

If a couple is disagreeing about something and cannot reach a suitable compromise, if a woman is submissive and takes a step back because of her husband's God-given authority, is she still obeying? I would say so. She is honoring his wish not to fight, and gifting him with her trust that he will take her feelings into consideration, but will do what is best for their family.

I don't know if she's obeying, or just submitting. The words are pretty intertwined, aren't they?

I think the main difference between submission and simple obedience is that submission can really only be given. Anyone will choose to obey if they are given strong enough incentive to break them. However, submission is something that has to be freely given, and it works hand-in-hand with the respect that we are supposed to have for our husbands. Likewise, God's command that a husband love his wife would go a long way to ensure that he is reaching for her submission, and not shutting himself off from her to better control her through simple obedience.

You've hit the nail on the head.

 

[Jenna]

I don't know Jenna. Maybe in practice the two aren't any different. I hear the word 'obey' and I think of a dog, or at least children who have no say in the matter. I guess that may be it: in my mind, obey means that the obedient one doesn't have a say, while submit means that the one in submission's voice is heard and considered, even if the final decision comes from the other person.

Also, obedience implies punishment. If one does not obey, there is usually a punishment administered. Are husbands to punish their wives?

Ah, and here is such a vital difference. Think of obeying the Lord. Time and again he tell us to obey him, yet he gives us free will to make our own decisions, even when they are poor. Are we punished for not doing as He wants? We sure are. It's not even so much that God does the punishing as He allows us to reap what we sow.

Now, I don't see anything in the bible that says that a wife can't speak her mind and let it be known what she believes is best. Actually, what I do read are verses telling women not to harp on their husbands and drive them out. lol Of course a wife should be able to speak her mind, but also to realize that sometimes a husband feels convicted and lead to do something other than what she advises. So, in taking on a submissive role and going along with her husband's plan, a wife is still actively obeying. To obey is HER choice though.

As far as a man punishing his wife, it happens all the time, and in the reverse also. We do it many times without even realizing what we are doing. Now, if we're going to speak in terms of physical discipline and things of that strong nature, that is up to the couple to decide on their own. I'm not an advocate for either position. Each couple will work out what is best for them and keeps them from harm.

I don't know if she's obeying, or just submitting. The words are pretty intertwined, aren't they?

Yeah, that's actually my point, really. How about this to mess with your grey matter....

Submission equals obedience, but obedience does not always equal submission. Obedience can be blind, and motivated by many different factors, though most times it is fear. When I was a child and could not understand submission, I was obedient to my father because I didn't like the negative repercussions if I didn't. However, when I grew to understand the spirit of submissiveness, then I was able to give that gift freely, understanding that it was more about where my head and heart were, and not so much about acts of service. The acts are only the fruit from a spirit that is content and happy with where my Lord has put me, and an expression of respect and love for a man who tries his best to be what the Lord wants of him.

I feel like all I do is echo Jenna, lately...

*laughs* You know, it's only because I got here first. Otherwise, it'd be the other way around.

 

[jazzbird]

Jenna, you are wise beyond your years. Seriously. That's one of the first things that comes to mind when I see your name...."wise beyond her years..."

 

[jazzbird]

I used to be really big on the "submission isn't obedience!" thing, but it was simply because I was still fighting with God about it all, because I was in rebellion to the way He'd set things up and was still trying to figure out how to get out of it! (Jazzbird, I'm not saying that's what you're doing --it's just what I did).

Thanks for clarifying via parenthesese. I gotcha.

 

[Jenna]

*giggles* That's just because you haven't seen the 'whine behind my ears'. lol You know, it all just some funny show that I put on so y'all will think that I know what I'm talking about, right? *laughs* Really, I'm just joking. It must be God, cause I'm pretty much just a psychotic nut on my own. Then again, I hear he uses all kinds........