Does Submit = Obey?

[jazzbird]

*giggles* That's just because you haven't seen the 'whine behind my ears'. lol You know, it all just some funny show that I put on so y'all will think that I know what I'm talking about, right? *laughs* Really, I'm just joking. It must be God, cause I'm pretty much just a psychotic nut on my own. Then again, I hear he uses all kinds........

Maybe he especially uses psychotic nuts....

 

[Jenna]

Oh, and I didn't like that obedience thing either. I wasn't raised with any idea of submission. I grew up in a family of not-so-Christ-like Christians (kinda), and the only reasoning we were ever given for any decision was "because I said so". That grated on me for a real long time, and without anyone to really guide me in a positive direction I turned kind of snooty. Really, it became one of those things where I didn't want to be controlled by any man. After all, no man is smarter than me or can do more than I can. We're all equal, but you know that I"m really just better because women are superior creatures. *gag* Bleck.

Anywho, it took a lot of bible study myself and a lot of time delving into the idea of submission before I started to "get" it. I still struggle with it sometimes. I am, after all, only human. But, at least I try. I have a naturally submissive spirit, but I was put through a lot of programming via 'strong women' in my family. So, old habits die hard.

 

[Jenna]

Maybe he especially uses psychotic nuts....

*laughs* Hey, just so long as I don't end up a rosted nut, I'm happy. lol

 

[Leanna]

I still don't understand. I am the kid in a class that unless you can give me a concrete example of a formula I don't learn the material. I fail to see the importance of submission v. obedience in a marriage. I am not extra-keen on the idea that sometimes the man has to make a decision the wife doesn't like. That sounds incredibly messed up to me and it seems no one can provide any real life examples of when this is necessary.

Let's face it, most disagreements that don't become settled don't need a decision making man. I think of the disagreements I come in contact with. They are sometimes when we discuss our views on issues, polital or economic. It is sometimes should we go out tonight, or should we stay home? It would be more godly for me to let him make this decision? If we can't show each other enough love to sometimes stay home and sometimes go out for the other then we need counseling so learn to resolve issues. I can't think of a situation in which it would be godly of me to obey.

 

[WolfGate]

Leanna - sometimes not making a decision is making a decision. Heard a very wise man talk on this subject. He solidly support a literal interpretation of these scriptures. Still, in over 40 years of marriage, his wife says there were only 3 times where they couldn't reach a mutual decision and he had to make the call. One of them involved whether or not they changed ministry and went to a new city. He prayfully felt one way, she prayerfully felt the other. In this case, not making a decision was the same as making a decision to stay where they were - so delaying until they both agreed was not an option.

Personally, I agree with almost everything he said - including the frequency where this should really occur. If a man is "invoking" this scripture to cover things such as should we go out tonight, or should we stay home, then I think he's likely misusing and misunderstanding.

 

[alaskamolly]

Concrete examples are all over the place, but consider this concept first.

Leaders are like shepherds, in a way. They are given oversight by God to see things that an average "lamb" might not see.


In 2 Samuel, God likens husbands to shepherds and wives to lambs. (Remember the prophet Nathan coming to David--look it up if you don't, because it's a very interesting analogy and gives ya a lot to think about!).


This can help us see that God sometimes gives spiritual vision and direction to a husband that perhaps is not always given to the wife.

Just as a shepherd can see the "whole picture" more than the lamb can, it is sometimes that way in our marraiges. The shepherd has vision that the lamb just simply cannot have. It's not bad, it's not good, it's just 'the way it is.'

This is NOT saying that a wife isn't spiritual, or that she can't be given spiritual direction...just that sometimes, like in the Garden of Eden for example, God will specifically talk to the husband about something...and it's not that He doesn't want the wife to hear it too...it's just that she will hear it through her husband. (Re. like the command about not eating from the wrong tree! God gave that to Adam, and Adam passed it onto Eve).

You asked for some examples...
Here's a few!

One specific example: My husband felt like we were supposed to move to Alaska after we got out of Bible College. Did I feel like that? No, not really. I was hoping for somewhere a little warmer, I guess... Maybe more exciting--a jungle somewhere or something. But my husband felt like the Lord told him we were to move to Alaska.

I could have hemmed and hawed, argued, or whatever, but instead, I trusted that God was big enough to give the leader of our family directions. And I am also sure that if my husband was mistaken, God was still big enough to honor a faith-filled action and was big enough to turn us around if we were going the wrong way.

So, even though I had no clear direction any which way (and a bit of a personal problem with cold climates!), I packed our bags with cheerfulness and up North we headed.


Let's take it down to smaller things, though, and give a more practical example of the "spirit" of submission.

My husband likes things clean. I'm a...well, a natural slob, to be perfectly honest. My submission requires me, however, to try and bless my husband's life as much as I can. So, as I am able, I keep a really clean house!

I don't do this for me...I'm a terrible mess...I do it because I want to honor the Lord by honoring my husband. And the fact of the matter is, my husband is not the one who's the helpmate--I'm the one who helps/aids him. My position is to bless him, whatever that may mean, and since my particular guy loves neatness and order, well, we work to have that for him...not because he demanded it, but because he loves it, and I love him.


Here's another smaller practical example that just happened to me yesterday:

I was in the process of setting up ballet lessons for one of our girls, found a great place and was about to sign them up... and my husband asked me to stop.

He wanted to check out the place first, before we signed her up. Personally, I had a really good feel for the teacher on the phone, and really liked what I could tell of the studio, better than all the others I'd talked to. I felt no need to wait, and I think that after he checks out the studio, we'll 99.99% go with these guys. So it's a hassle to have to go check them out before signing our daughter up.

But I didn't balk--I automatically told the gal that I'd get back to her in a week, and didn't sign up my daughter, and I plan to go visit the studio this week. And I'm not being grumpy or whiney about it toward him--just a matter-of-fact attitude, kind of like a, "Yes, Sir" with a smile.

Why? Because:

1.) I trust that God speaks through my husband--not all the time, but sometimes. And I've learned that it is very smart for me to pay attention to his leanings, because those "sometimes" that God speaks, it's always the BEST possible thing, and important that I follow it.

I know this from the times I've obeyed him and from the times when I've refused to...always end up very regretful later, when I realize that God had something good for me and my family, and it was my rebellion that made us miss out.

Also though,

2.) My husband is the leader of our family (God said that, not him and not me), so if my husband says wait on the dance lessons, then God holds me responsible if I don't.

Personally, I'm a little scared of God. He's a Lamb, but He's also a Lion, and if you've ever read Psalm 2, you'll know that He doesn't take kindly to rebelliousness.

I'm His daughter, yes, and He loves me, yes, but that even makes me more scared because He has no problem disciplining His daughters and sons (Hebrews 12)! I've felt His rod before, and it ain't so fun, so I'm ALL for keeping my rear end out of trouble and obeying what He told me to do in Ephesians 5!


We have a very mutual relationship--he is very loving toward me and considers my opinion--even values it. But he's the leader, not me. God told me to submit to him, and to do it whether or not I feel like he's right. So I make it my habit to defer to my husband. ...Not to become a doormat or go passive and never think for myself, but to follow his lead as a lamb follows a shepherd.

If my husband feels that God's vision for our family is to go to Uganda and be missionaries, then I'm packing up the bags to Uganda.

If he says we're supposed to join the corporate ladder and be soldiers for Jesus in the business world, then off I go to buy some dress suits.

If my husband feels that we're supposed to stay in the church we're now working for, for the next 20 years (even though I'm not so fond of this state!), then I'm going to find all sorts of things to like about it (which I'm currently doing) and set up camp here happily, happy because I know I'm smack dab in the middle of God's will.

It's not about me. It's not about my husband, either. It's about the Boss. He's what it's all about, and the way He sets things up is the way I want to have them run.

Makes it a lot easier, and the cool thing is, since it's actually what we were made for, it makes 'em a whole lot sweeter, too.


My Two Pennies!

Blessings,
Molly
The Former Femi-Nazi...

Again, I must recommend the book, "Reforming Marriage," by Douglass Wilson, and the book, "Me? Obey Him?" by Elizabeth Standeford Rice (short, cheap, but very to the point!).

 

[DrJay]

Wives are told to submit to their husbands, as husbands are the head of the household.

Does this mean that wives are to obey their husbands?
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Not quoting the entire scripture is why we something have problems.

 

[Jenna]

I think that the reason why we have some problems is because people make it a matter of submission being dependant on someone else doing what they are supposed to first. The great thing about submission is that even if a husband doesn't know or appreciate what he has, the Lord sees all and is pleased by a woman doing what she should for Him.

 

[Dancn4him]

I was told by my pastor:

As long as he is submitting to God,and it is for a rightious purpose/reason,and what my spouse was wanting me to do or say was for the good of god or man to be submittive. However , if I felt in my soul that it was wrong to be weary of it. We all need to be prayerful and seek gods word, and councel whan we are unsure.
Kim

 

[Jenna]

Of course, we should not allow our husbands to lead us into sin. We all have personal accountability in the things that we do. No man's rule ever takes precendence over what God wants.

 

[alaskamolly]

Agreed. But then it's important to be careful about what we deem "sin."

If it's just something we just don't want to do, then it's not ok to say, "you know, I don't feel like the LORD wants me to go to the grocery store right now, even though you asked me to do it, so therefore it would be wrong for me to do it."

Giggling, but been there, done that! (Yeah, that first year of my marraige was pretty hilarious, looking back--hilarious ...and SAD. What a mess I was)!


We don't submit if our husband commands us to commit adultery, to murder, to lie, cheat, or steal, etc... Things that God names as sin, we don't do, whether our husband or our president or our pastor tells us otherwise. ...Because the whole reason why we're obeying our husbands is because we are obeying God! So of course it makes no sense to disobey Him in the process.